Penance: explaining to non Catholic

[anruari]

I thought I posted this already… but my account says I havent. so I’ve got to type it again.
Fairly long background to the question, so please bear with me.

Here in the UK the Bishops oc England & Wales reintroduced mandatory abstainance from Meat on Fridays for most adults… effective last Friday.

I posted a little reminder on my facebook page last friday, & among the “Oops I forgot” and “Thankyou” and “what about vegitarians” questions I got back, I got questions back from one or two non catholics.

One in particular initially asked why, to which I replied taht it is a form of fasting and a penance.

Her response to that displayed a common missunderstanding of Catholic theology.
“Ah yes pennance, one of your sacraments. I understand though that Christ paid the price for all our sins and the Bible is very clear “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God,” (Eph. 2:8). and many many other verses in the Bible describe similar?”

I have pointed out that there is a difference between the Sacrament of Penance, and individual acts of penance.
I can find lots of biblical and early Fathers references to the Sacrament of Penance / Confession (even though its current form continued to evolve right into the 20th century)

What I am having trouble finding references to is the idea of routine Penance / Mortifications from sources that would help me to explain to a non Catholic.
As I am not in a position to Challenge “Sola Scriptura” with this person, (that, I’m sure will come at a later day) I really need to use the scriptures as a starting point. Additional references to the Early Fathers should be acceptable to her.

 

[VivienneJ]

Not sure if this will help in this case, anruari, but if you have non-Catholic friends who frequently misunderstand Catholic beliefs, it is worth getting hold of a copy of “Catholicism for Dummies” which frequently explains things in a clear and simple way.

On page 129 it has this to say:
Whatever the penance, it’s merely a token, because Catholics believe that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is what made atonement for our sins. Your penance is for your benefit - to remind yourself that God comes first and you come last.

And I certainly find this to be true on the day of the week I “have” to abstain from meat.

 

[paperwight66]

No, you have been misinformed. In the UK, it is not mandatory, if you are using that word to say that mortal sin is involved.

Please read this Q and A from the website of Bishops of England and Wales :
catholic-ew.org.uk

Q11. Are the Bishops placing a greater obligation on Catholics in England and Wales?
Apart
from the exceptions above, will it be a ‘sin’ to eat meat on a Friday after the Bishops’ decision
takes effect in September?

Answer:
The obligation on Catholics in England and Wales to do penance on a Friday will be the same after Friday
16 September 2011 as it was before that date. The only change is that the Bishops have determined that the
requirement by all the faithful to do penance on a Friday will be fulfilled by abstaining from meat. When asked
a similar question to this, the Holy See replied that the ‘gravity’ of the obligation applies to our intention to
observe penance as a regular and necessary part of our spiritual lives as a wholexiv.
Therefore, the ‘gravity’ of the obligation does not relate to observing the specific act of penance (abstaining
from meat) prescribed by the Conference of Bishops. The ‘gravity’ of the obligation applies to the intention to
do penance during the prescribed penitential days and seasons of the Church’s yearxv. Failure to abstain from
meat on a particular Friday then would not constitute a sin.

In other words, abstaining from meat has been re-installed as an acceptable way to practise penance on a Friday. It doesn’t mean that it is the only one, nor that not abstaining from meat = a sin.

Obviously, it refers to ordinary Fridays. Lenten Fridays etc, remain days of abstinence.

 

[paperwight66]

In case anyone wants to check that Q and A, the quickest way to find it is to go to the Bishops’ website catholic-ew.org.uk, click on ‘Press releases’, then scroll down for the one headed ‘Friday Penance’.

 

[Evan]

Perhaps this will help

Matthew 9:14-17

Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?" And Jesus said to them, "The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.

We are waiting the 2nd coming. We fast until that day.

 

[anruari]

Thankyou paperwight66, I used the word mandatory instead of the word required. That was an unintended use of a synonyn with subtle symantic differences.
The original question remains:
Can people help me find references to the merits of penance / mortification. Especially in the Scriptures or Fathers.

(I have found 1 paragraph in the CCC, and many references to Confession.

 

[paperwight66]

I get the impression (sorry if I’m wrong) that you are still misunderstanding the Bishops’ letter. The requirement is to do penance. The point is that abstaining now counts as a valid acceptable way of doing penance, whereas in the recent past it did not automatically count.

We are not obliged to abstain from meat on ordinary Fridays For many people such a ruling would be meaningless, anyway, as they don’t eat meat at any time already. But we are obliged to do some kind of penance if we don’t abstain from meat.

Not abstaining from meat on a Friday is not a sin, as made clear in that Q and A, assuming that some other kind of penance is undertaken. Wilfully refusing to do any kind of penance is a sin.

 

[paperwight66]

The Bishops requested that Catholics abstain from meat on Fridays as a way of enhancing the feeling of differentness that Catholics should have, of the specialness of Fridays, and also to show solidarity with the poor. It is the traditional way of achieving these ends, after all, and presumably the Bishops felt there was a longing or a need among the faithful to bring back the tradition.

But they have made it clear that not abstaining is not a sin.

 

[Mark1124]

If you want Biblical evidence, you’ve got three options:

1. There are many examples of penance in the Old Testament
2. Penance is mentioned in the New Testament
3. Show that we are not saved by faith alone

I know from experience that option 1 won’t work: Protestants generally think that everything changed with Jesus so the Old Testament is mostly irrelevant. Option 2 probably won’t work either, since they’ll just say it’s a bad translation (the word Catholic Bibles translate as penance is translated as repentance in most Protestant Bibles). That leaves option 3-if you can show that works are involved in our salvation, then the idea of penance makes perfect sense. Point out that there are many Bible verses about the importance of works in salvation. Here are a few of them:

Matthew 5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 25:41-45: Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and **you gave me no food**, I was thirsty and **you gave me no drink**, I was a stranger and **you did not welcome me**, naked and **you did not clothe me**, sick and in prison and **you did not visit me**.' Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’

Romans 2:6: **For he will render to every man according to his works
**
Colossians 1:9-10: And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.

James 2:24-26: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Revelation 20:12-13: And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

Matthew 19:16-17: Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

Matthew 7:21: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

 

[perro_sarnoso]

I thought I posted this already… but my account says I havent. so I’ve got to type it again.
Fairly long background to the question, so please bear with me.

Here in the UK the Bishops oc England & Wales reintroduced mandatory abstainance from Meat on Fridays for most adults… effective last Friday.

I posted a little reminder on my facebook page last friday, & among the “Oops I forgot” and “Thankyou” and “what about vegitarians” questions I got back, I got questions back from one or two non catholics.

One in particular initially asked why, to which I replied taht it is a form of fasting and a penance.

Her response to that displayed a common missunderstanding of Catholic theology.
“Ah yes pennance, one of your sacraments. I understand though that Christ paid the price for all our sins and the Bible is very clear “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God,” (Eph. 2:8). and many many other verses in the Bible describe similar?”

I have pointed out that there is a difference between the Sacrament of Penance, and individual acts of penance.
I can find lots of biblical and early Fathers references to the Sacrament of Penance / Confession (even though its current form continued to evolve right into the 20th century)

What I am having trouble finding references to is the idea of routine Penance / Mortifications from sources that would help me to explain to a non Catholic.
As I am not in a position to Challenge “Sola Scriptura” with this person, (that, I’m sure will come at a later day) I really need to use the scriptures as a starting point. Additional references to the Early Fathers should be acceptable to her.

I won’t sugar coat this with analogies and stories of how confession and pennance are similar to this or that so, I will just tell you:

I go to confession, I confess my sins to the priest because it is a sacrament instituted by Christ Himself and given to the apostles to hand down to the presbyters (priests). etc etc .

The priest, being duly consecrated to carry out this sacrament, absolves me of my sins - however - by the nature of my sin (s) he determines that I should carry out a certain pennance. He says, " say 3 hail Marys and 2 Our Fathers…also because of this sin…you must do a kindness to your wife that she has always deserved from you and you have not given her in the past years of marriage."

I say, “yes father”. I step out of the confessional…forgiven!..I slip on a banana peel…break my neck and die.

Guess what?..my soul goes to Purgatory and not heaven because, my sins are forgiven but my pennance is not paid.

And you will remain in that jail until the last penny is paid on your debt. But, how will I pay? I can’t work in jail - I can’t earn grace in jail - others will have to pay this debt for me.

You get the picture.- I’m sure. We are catholics. This is not only what we believe…this is scriptural.

 

[anruari]

Paperwight Thankyou for that link.
I had read the previous statement, but hadn’t read that Q&A. it was useful -
It was particularly useful with my original question.

I get the impression (sorry if I’m wrong) that you are still misunderstanding the Bishops’ letter. The requirement is to do penance.

I think we probably are misunderstanding each other at least to some extent. My key question was about how to explain to a non catholic what the benefit of Penance is, and what it’s scriptural and apostolic history is. (not to question the gravity of failing to do penance {or a specific penance} on Fridays)

The point is that abstaining now counts as a valid acceptable way of doing penance, whereas in the recent past it did not automatically count.

Not actually true Abstaining from mead DID count. in 1983 the rules were relaxed permitting Catholics to decide for themselves what their penance should be. a non exhaustive list of suggestions was published this included abstaining from meat. The problem was that many Catholics, myself included got the impression that no penance was required. this was an error. - How strong that obligation is will be discussed below.

We are not obliged to abstain from meat on ordinary Fridays For many people such a ruling would be meaningless, anyway, as they don’t eat meat at any time already. But we are obliged to do some kind of penance if we don’t abstain from meat.

From the Q&A you linked me to:

Q10. Are all Catholics obliged to do penance by abstaining from meat on Fridays?
Canon 1251 of the Code of Canon Law states: “Abstinence from eating meat or another food according to the prescriptions of the Conference of Bishops is to be observed on Fridays throughout the year unless they are solemnities; abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and on the Friday of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.”

it goes on to say that for those who would not normally eat meat another food stuff should be abstained from as well.

Not abstaining from meat on a Friday is not a sin, as made clear in that Q and A, assuming that some other kind of penance is undertaken. Wilfully refusing to do any kind of penance is a sin.

The code of cannon law… for all countries (not just England and Wales) makes it clear that it is the intention to carry out regular Friday penance which is required. Due to this being unable or forgetting on a particular day is not a sin.
having no intention to fast or carry out any other penance (as I was, in ignorance, for many years) is a sin. To wilfully reject this teaching, by a Catholic, is of course a serious sin.

So in summary: the new rules in England and wales are as follows:
We have been reminded of our obligation to carry out Friday penance. This reminder is timely and was (for me anyway) definitely needed!
For adults who normally eat meat, that penance is, as from last Friday (16 Sept), to include the abstainance from meat.
For Adults who don’t or cant eat meat they are asked to abstain from another food of which they normally eat. examples include Dairy or Eggs, but it comes down to personal choice.

Forgetting, or deciding that it is to inconvenient, or not possible on a particular Friday is not a sin, but we are advised to make up in another way if possible (e.g. by praying more) by any acceptable act of penance.

As the requirement to fast is an Obligation, and it forms one of the Precepts of the Church to obey the local norms on the issue of Fasting and Abstainance, we are required to be aware of these rules and to try to obey them. The teaching that it is a mortal Sin to miss penance on a Friday was long since abolished.

It is also good to lovingly do our best to ensure that our brothers and sisters around us are also aware of the rules - just as we should help them to get to Mass on Sundays. This forms part of the Public Witness which is a key stated aim of the bishops in reintroducing this custom in this part of the world.
The use of electronic media to comment on this matter is also in keeping with the teachings of a recent international bishops conference. So a post of your facebook page or similar - especially if you have several catholic friends who may comment back - could be helpful. (but it’s not good to provoke argument or discord)

 

[anruari]

I say, “yes father”. I step out of the confessional…forgiven!..I slip on a banana peel…break my neck and die.

Guess what?..my soul goes to Purgatory and not heaven because, my sins are forgiven but my pennance is not paid.

And you will remain in that jail until the last penny is paid on your debt. But, how will I pay? I can’t work in jail - I can’t earn grace in jail - others will have to pay this debt for me.

You get the picture.- I’m sure. We are catholics. This is not only what we believe…this is scriptural.

While some people have taught this I believe that it is not entirely correct.
To the best of my knowledge the official teaching of the Church is that you only enter Purgatory with the certain knowledge that it is a temporary state. It is the period in which all our earthly attachments are burned away.
As our period in Purgatory is Finite, it cannot be totally dependant on the actions of those who are still alive to bring about it’s end.- however their prayers and penances can shorten that time for us.

My view of purgatory - and one I believe is considered acceptable to the official position:
When we die, we face the Judgement of the Lord. He Loves us and offers us his forgiveness.
If we are so full of Pride, and Anger that we are unable to accept his forgiveness - our state of sin makes it too painfull we cast ourselves out of his presence forever. That absence of God is so painfull and destructive to our immortal souls that it is described throughout scripture as the Fire of Hell.

If we can accept his forgivenss (which is offered to all) we must purge ourselves of all the sin and earthly attachments. All that did not come from God. We enter the Refiners Fire - a fire which is probably Hotter than the fires of Hell - but it is a fire with burns only that which did not come from God. it is Healing. We are comforted by the knowledge that this is for our own good, and when the process is finished we will be fully in His presence, with our Mother, and all the Choirs of Saints & Angels.
For this to happen we must be repentant. We must want to be free of those sins and attachments. We must Want to enter His Presence.
For this to happen you must Love the Lord your God, with all your Heart, All your Soul and all your Strength. And Love your neighbour as yourself.
(implicit in that, you must also love yourself, and believe that you can be loved - self hatred is a sin and not conducive to receiving Gods Love. )

 

[paperwight66]

Thank you, anruari, your summary of the current situation re Friday penance in the UK was MUCH better than mine. Corrections accepted.

To explain my comment about abstaining from meat not automatically counting as Friday penance in the recent past :it was a clumsy attempt to distinguish between real penance, and merely having a wonderful lobster thermidor which IMO is a mockery of the old requirement (other delicious fish-dishes are available).

I liked your comments on purgatory, too. But to be argumentative (again), if the purpose is as a medicine, to purge us of attachment to sin and so on, how does that square with being helped by the prayers of others? In other words, is it in our best interests for our time in purgatory to be shortened?