Penance For Sinners? Was Christ's Death Not Sufficient To Save Everyone?

[yahwehsdaughter]

I told my friend about a series of rosary novenas I’m doing so everyone on earth will be saved. I also told him that since I learned about the “illumination of conscience” that will happen someday, I’ve been thinking of also praying that God will allow a resurrection of all the sinners who have ever died and ended up in hell, so they will also experience the illumination when it happens and will have another chance at life to entire heaven. He told me not to ask for such things, and not pray for all sinners, but only on those who are alive and are in the church or atheists. He said if I ask for what I’m asking for I’ll have to suffer terribly for it.

I don’t understand why I would have to suffer for the sins of those I’m asking God to save. I thought Jesus already did that, and only He took away sins from the world. My friend has been trying to teach me about penance, but I don’t understand why there is a need to suffer when Christ already died and suffered for sins. I don’t understand how or why I would have to contribute to this when ask God to save someone.

I said I will offer a prayer similar to St. Gertrude’s where I will just offer up all the masses since the institution of the eucharist, the sufferings of Christ and Mary and all the saints and martyrs, and all the sufferings of my own life from conception, as well as the sufferings of everyone’s lives who have ever lived from conception until now; and that should be sufficient enough when I’m asking for God to save everyone. He still kind of frowned at the idea though, and said God is just and everyone in Hell earned their place so I shouldn’t worry about them or I’m judging God; and that I shouldn’t worry about everyone’s souls because I will bring suffering on myself for asking what I am asking for.

I just want to understand. Why is Christ’s death seemingly insufficient for everyone? Why do I have to suffer for sinners when I ask God to save them?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I told my friend about a series of rosary novenas I’m doing so everyone on earth will be saved. I also told him that since I learned about the “illumination of conscience” that will happen someday, I’ve been thinking of also praying that God will allow a resurrection of all the sinners who have ever died and ended up in hell, so they will also experience the illumination when it happens and will have another chance at life to entire heaven.

No offense, but this is rather a pointless prayer. The Church teaches that once a soul is in Hell, our prayers cannot help them. We should instead pray that they do not go to hell in the first place.

He told me not to ask for such things, and not pray for all sinners, but only on those who are alive and are in the church or atheists.

This makes sense because of what I said above. Except for the part about “in the church or atheists”. You can pray for anybody. It’s okay to pray for someone who’s out of the church but not an atheist. You can pray for a non-Christian, for example.

He said if I ask for what I’m asking for I’ll have to suffer terribly for it.

This is wrong, and I have no idea where the guy got this from. God does not punish people for making a sincere prayer, even if it is a futile prayer. At most, God would take the prayer you said for the person in Hell and apply it to another purpose. You wouldn’t suffer for praying though. You didn’t wish anything bad for anyone.

I don’t understand why I would have to suffer for the sins of those I’m asking God to save.

You don’t. You can voluntarily offer the suffering you have in your daily life to help sinners. You can also voluntarily choose to do penance for sinners. Both these choices are VOLUNTARY works of mercy. You do not “have to suffer” for anyone else’s sins, or for the sins of those for whom you pray. The Church doesn’t teach that.

(Continued next post due to length)

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I thought Jesus already did that

He did, he died to save us all. Some sinners still reject his gift though.
When we VOLUNTARILY join our sufferings to his, we are helping Jesus, like Simon helped him carry his cross. We are also using our sufferings for a good purpose, rather than just letting them go to waste. We are going to suffer in this world anyway because life contains suffering and it hits us all. Why not use it to help someone else? But again this is VOLUNTARY on our part.
We can also choose to do extra penance, like if I am praying for someone I can fast for them or offer the pain of my headache for them, but it’s not like if they are a really bad sinner on death row I have to do a whole year of fasting whereas if they’re a holy person I only have to fast for half a day. You do what you can and want to do. God makes use of it.

and only He took away sins from the world.

You are not suffering to “take away sins from the world”. If you choose to VOLUNTARILY offer up your suffering, it has a positive effect and may help save other souls or convince other people to turn from sin.

My friend has been trying to teach me about penance, but I don’t understand why there is a need to suffer when Christ already died and suffered for sins.

Like I said, you’re going to suffer anyway in life, might as well offer it up. If you want to do more than that to help save living souls or console the heart of Jesus and Mary, it’s a voluntary choice. Redemptive suffering is kind of an advanced Catholic teaching these days because so many people misunderstand it.

I don’t understand how or why I would have to contribute to this when ask God to save someone.

You don’t. Again, it’s VOLUNTARY, a choice on your part. It’s not a requirement God imposes whenever you pray for someone.

I said I will offer a prayer similar to St. Gertrude’s

With all due respect, best to just offer the one she already wrote. Better to not make up prayers when you’re just learning about this. Hers is short and gets the job done fine.

where I will just offer up all the masses since the institution of the eucharist, the sufferings of Christ and Mary and all the saints and martyrs, and all the sufferings of my own life from conception, as well as the sufferings of everyone’s lives who have ever lived from conception until now; and that should be sufficient enough when I’m asking for God to save everyone. He still kind of frowned at the idea though, and said God is just and everyone in Hell earned their place so I shouldn’t worry about them or I’m judging God; and that I shouldn’t worry about everyone’s souls because I will bring suffering on myself for asking what I am asking for.

Your friend is a bit off track with this stuff. Maybe best to discuss this with someone else like a priest.

I just want to understand. Why is Christ’s death seemingly insufficient for everyone? Why do I have to suffer for sinners when I ask God to save them?

It’s not insufficient. Your friend doesn’t seem to understand redemptive suffering.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Here, this came up once before in a thread on redemptive suffering and this link was very popular.
Let Mother Angelica explain suffering to you in pretty simple language.
She suffered a lot in life and offered it up. She was very knowledgeable on this subject.
The suffering part is in the first few minutes mostly, if you don’t want to watch the whole 50 minutes that also talks about other things.

 

[yahwehsdaughter]

Thank you for your patient answers to my questions. It was very helpful . Thank you for the video, as well .

 

[Tis_Bearself]

This is a good point.
When we speak of “praying for sinners” we are generally speaking of praying for living people because the goal is to pray that they are saved, i.e. don’t go to Hell.
When we speak of “praying for the Poor Souls in Purgatory” they of course were sinners on earth, but they are already saved so we don’t have to worry they will go to Hell, as they won’t. But we pray to get them through Purgatory quicker or make their time spent there easier.

Some people concentrate their prayers on the Poor Souls, other people concentrate their prayers on saving sinners. Both are important. I think Catholics perhaps do more praying for the Poor Souls rather than for those who are alive and in danger of Hell, because a couple of saints like St. John Vianney reminded us how important it was to pray for people while they are still living.

 

[Gorgias]

Why is Christ’s death seemingly insufficient for everyone?

It’s sufficient, but it’s not accepted by all. It’s not magic: Christ asks that we respond to His commands. It’s not just that He snaps His fingers and we’re all saved. Regarding the salvation of the damned in hell, the Letter to the Hebrews reminds us that there is one life, and then judgment. They’ve already received their judgment, and it will not change.

Why do I have to suffer for sinners when I ask God to save them?

Not sure what your friend means by that. You might ask him.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Not sure what your friend means by that. You might ask him.

It sounded like the guy seemed to think that when you pray for a bad sinner you have to take responsibility for compensating or atoning for the person’s sins, and therefore you’re calling misfortune down on yourself in proportion to the person’s sin.

Like I said this isn’t something that automatically happens. Some saints and holy people have volunteered to be “victim souls” and take on suffering to help sinners or for God’s purposes in general, but it’s not like God says, “OK, you prayed for a huge sinner X today, so here’s a huge suffering for you since you’re gonna have to make a lot of atonement for X’s sin.”

 

[yahwehsdaughter]

the Letter to the Hebrews reminds us that there is one life, and then judgment.

I’m aware of this verse, but I know some people have the gift of miracles by the Holy Spirit and can raise the dead. I heard one pastor say years ago that the gift of resurrection is for sinners – that we raise them from the dead, so they can be saved, but we leave the righteous alone if they die suddenly because they are in a better place. These kinds of miracles usually only happen during mission trips and by certain people (I know everyone doesn’t have this gift), but I thought about what that pastor said and figured if it’s true that the gift of resurrection is for sinners, then God could be merciful and raise all sinners from the dead and give them the grace to be saints, so they will enter heaven next time around.

I will continue to pray for those in purgatory and those who are alive. I guess I won’t worry much about those who are in hell anymore.

 

[LilyM]

Gorgias:

the Letter to the Hebrews reminds us that there is one life, and then judgment.

I’m aware of this verse, but I know some people have the gift of miracles by the Holy Spirit and can raise the dead. I heard one pastor say years ago that the gift of resurrection is for sinners – that we raise them from the dead, so they can be saved, but we leave the righteous alone if they die suddenly because they are in a better place. These kinds of miracles usually only happen during mission trips and by certain people (I know everyone doesn’t have this gift), but I thought about what that pastor said and figured if it’s true that the gift of resurrection is for sinners, then God could be merciful and raise all sinners from the dead and give them the grace to be saints, so they will enter heaven next time around.

I will continue to pray for those in purgatory and those who are alive. I guess I won’t worry much about those who are in hell anymore.

Who says it is for sinners? There are a number of resurrection miracles recorded in the Bible. In no case is it stated that the person was raised from the dead because they were a sinner in special need.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I heard one pastor say years ago that the gift of resurrection is for sinners – that we raise them from the dead, so they can be saved, but we leave the righteous alone if they die suddenly because they are in a better place.

I take it this was not a Catholic pastor.
The gift of resurrection is for whoever God wills it to be for. It just means he is not finished with the person. Some people get another chance to reform their life, some people are already living a good life and he just wants them to do some more stuff on earth.
“We” don’t get a say in it.

 

[Gorgias]

I’m aware of this verse, but I know some people have the gift of miracles by the Holy Spirit and can raise the dead.

How do you discern that Spirit? (Isn’t that what the Scriptures tell us to do?)

I heard one pastor say years ago that the gift of resurrection is for sinners – that we raise them from the dead, so they can be saved, but we leave the righteous alone if they die suddenly because they are in a better place.

Wow. Just… wow. So… this pastor judges souls now? (“Judge not, lest ye be judged”, no?)

I thought about what that pastor said and figured if it’s true that the gift of resurrection is for sinners

Yeah… he’s mistaken. I don’t know what else to say.

then God could be merciful and raise all sinners from the dead and give them the grace to be saints, so they will enter heaven next time around.

Except that this flies in the face of the teaching of the Church and found in Scripture.

I will continue to pray for those in purgatory and those who are alive.

The gift of resurrection is for whoever God wills it to be for.

“Resuscitation”, not “resurrection”. The former is temporary, the latter is not.

 

[yahwehsdaughter]

I take it this was not a Catholic pastor.

No, he was Protestant.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

“Resuscitation”, not “resurrection”. The former is temporary, the latter is not.

You are correct in your use of the term. Thanks for the guidance!