Penance questions

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Since the new rule to accuse people who ask for a penance of being self-important, is one entitled to insist on a penance of substance? Will one get anywhere?

They seem to brainwash seminarians into being convinced that Catholics are all scrupulous. In seminaries they are a lot of nervous ninnies in a hothouse atmosphere. Depriving them of penance is a good idea because they need their self-importance (which is competitive) deflated. They don’t for a minute stop to think that we are not like them, at all.

The best penance I ever got was to be invited to conduct a bible study, using marginal references, on Mt ch 5. I spent three weeks on it, for about 20 minutes a day, before I called a halt of my own accord. Those were among the best three weeks of my life.

As you know I am not a proper Catholic and my ideas are extremely weird. I always thought the point of penance was to strengthen one’s relationship to Jesus? Does “Two Hail Marys” do that sufficiently?

In seminaries they eat religion and sleep religion and religion is the wallpaper. Seminarians are at heavy risk of getting too much of it so they need their own different regime.

 

[AttendeDomine]

No, two Hail Marys may not be sufficient to adequately accomplish penance, especially if they’re not done out of sincere charity, but are simply a mechanical response to having completed one’s Confession. But then again, neither may 48 Rosaries, 17 indulgenced litanies, and 114 hours of Scripture study.

The key is not to do much, but to do even small things with great love for God. When we stack up accomplishments before God, and almost demand of Him a reward for our great achievements, yes, we do run the risk of doing it all out of self-love. And that is absolutely a waste of time and counts for nothing in the order of grace.

 

[Scottgun]

Remember that the Sacrament of Reconciliation is not just a spiritual act, it is also a judicial act. The priest is exercising authority granted by Our Lord to His Apostles to bind and loose. So, if the priest gives a minimal penance, you can take it to the bank that it is sufficient. It doesn’t matter how lousy the seminaries are. If the priests are doing something wrong in their administration of the Sacrament, they will answer for it on Judgement Day, not you.

 

[phil19034]

**Since the new rule **to accuse people who ask for a penance of being self-important, is one entitled to insist on a penance of substance? Will one get anywhere?

They seem to brainwash seminarians into being convinced that Catholics are all scrupulous. In seminaries they are a lot of nervous ninnies in a hothouse atmosphere. Depriving them of penance is a good idea because they need their self-importance (which is competitive) deflated. They don’t for a minute stop to think that we are not like them, at all.

The best penance I ever got was to be invited to conduct a bible study, using marginal references, on Mt ch 5. I spent three weeks on it, for about 20 minutes a day, before I called a halt of my own accord. Those were among the best three weeks of my life.

As you know I am not a proper Catholic and my ideas are extremely weird. I always thought the point of penance was to strengthen one’s relationship to Jesus? Does “Two Hail Marys” do that sufficiently?

In seminaries they eat religion and sleep religion and religion is the wallpaper. Seminarians are at heavy risk of getting too much of it so they need their own different regime.

I know several priests straight out of seminary who are wonderful and orthodox, and preach the importance of confession.

St. Charles Borromeo Seminary in Philadelphia produces many wonderful, orthodox priests (which is why the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska comes here)

I don’t think there is a “new rule.” But maybe the priests you are referring too had some bad instructors.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Since the new rule to accuse people who ask for a penance of being self-important, is one entitled to insist on a penance of substance? Will one get anywhere?

I’m not aware of this rule. Is it something promulgated by the bishops of England and Wales?

Concerning the penance given in confession, I think it’s important to understand that penance is not given so that you can somehow “earn” your forgiveness. The forgiveness of sins is a pure gracious and merciful act of God. An elaborate penance doesn’t qualify you more for forgiveness than someone who carries out a small penance.

If you want to undertake a more penitential life you should talk with your spiritual director about what would be appropriate and what you are hoping to accomplish. Perhaps your director could suggest ways to help overcome feelings of entitlement or self-importance that may be clouding your spiritual life.

 

[pianistclare]

I’m not aware of this rule. Is it something promulgated by the bishops of England and Wales?

Concerning the penance given in confession, I think it’s important to understand that penance is not given so that you can somehow “earn” your forgiveness. The forgiveness of sins is a pure gracious and merciful act of God. An elaborate penance doesn’t qualify you more for forgiveness than someone who carries out a small penance.

If you want to undertake a more penitential life you should talk with your spiritual director about what would be appropriate and what you are hoping to accomplish. Perhaps your director could suggest ways to help overcome feelings of entitlement or self-importance that may be clouding your spiritual life.

Well stated.

 

[Gorgias]

They seem to brainwash seminarians into being convinced that Catholics are all scrupulous. In seminaries they are a lot of nervous ninnies in a hothouse atmosphere.

In seminaries they eat religion and sleep religion and religion is the wallpaper. Seminarians are at heavy risk of getting too much of it so they need their own different regime.

uch:

Wow. Just… wow. Stereotype much, do we? :sad_yes:

I always thought the point of penance was to strengthen one’s relationship to Jesus?

Actually, no. The point of penance is to do something (prayer or action) that will help repair the damage – that is, to lessen the “temporal punishment due to sin.” A side effect of that, I suppose, is that your relationship with Jesus is strengthened, but that’s not the point of penance.

Does “Two Hail Marys” do that sufficiently?

That’s another misunderstanding about penance: it doesn’t necessarily eliminate the ‘temporal punishment due to sin’ completely, nor must it. “Two Hail Mary’s” might be the appropriate penance for a person who would otherwise be overly scrupulous, or who would otherwise not engage in personal prayer. Penance doesn’t have to be exact, although it may be generally proportionate to the sins that have just been forgiven.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Thanks all! Very interesting replies shedding light on aspects I had not heard of.

The attempt to get a spiritual director backfired, I should probably try outside the church system.

Is it possible to have a spiritual director by telephone?

 

[pianistclare]

Thanks all! Very interesting replies shedding light on aspects I had not heard of.

The attempt to get a spiritual director backfired, I should probably try outside the church system.

Is it possible to have a spiritual director by telephone?

Anything is possible I suppose. I doubt if you can find one willing to operate this way though.
The parish priest or the Chancery office should have a list of good candidates for Spiritual Director. Also, every major retreat center has SD’s on staff, lay and religious.

 

[Gorgias]

The attempt to get a spiritual director backfired, I should probably try outside the church system.

Do you mean ‘outside of the structure of the parish / diocese’, or ‘outside the Church’? After all, a nun or monk or, in some cases, a layperson (with the requisite training and experience) might make for an excellent spiritual director.

However…

Is it possible to have a spiritual director by telephone?

… it’s possible, but somewhat odd. Many (most?) spiritual direction relationships include recourse to the sacrament of reconciliation. If your spiritual director is not a priest, then this aspect of the relationship is not a possibility.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

The parish priest or the Chancery office should have a list of good candidates for Spiritual Director.

This is what backfired - the parish referred me to the Diocese and they were all women and I didn’t want one - if you see what I mean.

I don’t think there are retreat centres nearby. Is there such a thing as a peripatetic SD?

I think those few Catholics I know do without SD.

My parents never let on that they had ever heard of it. I’d like to quiz them on lots of things now !!!

 

[pianistclare]

This is what backfired - the parish referred me to the Diocese and they were all women and I didn’t want one - if you see what I mean.

I don’t think there are retreat centres nearby. Is there such a thing as a peripatetic SD?

I think those few Catholics I know do without SD.

My parents never let on that they had ever heard of it. I’d like to quiz them on lots of things now !!!

Why not a woman? What’s up with that?
Just keep inquiring at various parishes if the parish priest will agree to be your Spiritual Director.
But there are not necessarily teachers of the faith. If you have faith questions, sit in on the RCIA classes.
If you want guidance as to how to build a deeper spiritual life. get a Spiritual Director.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

I’ll double check the idea of a woman SD. It’ll depend on her attitudes. I think there were also other hitches at the time - the order they belonged to or something - can’t remember off hand.

At the time, a song and dance was made at parish level and when one enquired there were very few of them and not in handy locations. I got the impression they saw themselves as semi-full time SDs and were scouting for business as it had become scarce. I don’t remember the details well though. Overall, it is typical of the wishy washy type of stunt that keeps being sprung by the church in our region.

Interesting you should mention RCIA. I’ll take that up in another thread.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Just a thought on spiritual directors –

I think that when someone has a checklist that the director must meet, it may be that the perfect spiritual director is being cut off before even being considered. God may have surprises in store.

As far as directors being few and in inconvenient locations, that may be true. Personally I drive about 2 hours each way to see my director and consider it time well spent. A good spiritual director is truly a blessing.

 

[pianistclare]

Just a thought on spiritual directors –

I think that when someone has a checklist that the director must meet, it may be that the perfect spiritual director is being cut off before even being considered. God may have surprises in store.

As far as directors being few and in inconvenient locations, that may be true. Personally I drive about 2 hours each way to see my director and consider it time well spent. A good spiritual director is truly a blessing.

indeed. It’s the attitude of the person being directed that is important.
The Director can only guide based on what they are told and they see is needed.
Most SD’s meet with their person once every 4-6 weeks around here.
It’s not like you have to go there constantly.

Give it a chance before you assume it won’t work.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

I think that when someone has a checklist that the director must meet, it may be that the perfect spiritual director is being cut off before even being considered. God may have surprises in store.

Indeed. My current spiritual director only fit one of my criteria, yet he’s turned out to be exactly the SD I need.

As far as directors being few and in inconvenient locations, that may be true. Personally I drive about 2 hours each way to see my director and consider it time well spent. A good spiritual director is truly a blessing.

The goal is to be guided by someone who can help you progress in your relationship with God. Sometimes this requires a fair amount of effort, but I agree it’s absolutely worth it.

Is it possible to have a spiritual director by telephone?

I do know two people who “meet” with their respective SDs by phone. However, each was under the in-person guidance of his SD for years before circumstances separated them by a distance so great that face-to-face meetings became impossible. To find an SD who will agree to phone meetings with someone (s)he has never met or barely knows…I leave room in the universe for this possibility, but don’t know of the existence of such an arrangement myself.