penance.....

[tiggylou]

(Well…I may as well ask all my issues with the catholic church)

Who developed the system of penance…(serious historical question…i can;t find it)

How did they come up with a a scale of what penance should be done for what sins?

 

[cfrancis]

(Well…I may as well ask all my issues with the catholic church)

Who developed the system of penance…(serious historical question…i can;t find it)

How did they come up with a a scale of what penance should be done for what sins?

What is your understanding of “penance?”

 

[tiggylou]

What is your understanding of “penance?”

man’s moral and religious attitude in reaction to sin. Guilt (culpa) of sin is what condemns humanity, and it is believed that through true contrition and confession of sins a penance can be allotted by the church to efface punishment (poena) by works of satisfaction to the wrath of God.

something along those lines…

 

[tobinatorstark]

Penance is very biblical. Leviticus 5:5 Let him do penance for his sin. Penance has been around since Adam and Eve so God created Penance in a nutshell

 

[mardukm]

(Well…I may as well ask all my issues with the catholic church)

Who developed the system of penance…(serious historical question…i can;t find it)

How did they come up with a a scale of what penance should be done for what sins?

The earliest mention of penance seems to be Tertullian writing at the turn of the second/third century (ca, 202 A.D.). He mentions the donning of sackcloth and ashes as part of the penitential act, so it certainly originated in the first century from the Jewish Church.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[JMJ_coder]

Not to mention that the entire New Testament is crammed full of exhortations to do penance.

 

[tiggylou]

Not to mention that the entire New Testament is crammed full of exhortations to do penance.

Isn’t the word you translate as ‘penance’ in the Latin vulgate metanoia in the greek…which is actaully translated repentance…not penance.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Isn’t the word you translate as ‘penance’ in the Latin vulgate metanoia in the greek…which is actaully translated repentance…not penance.

Many times, but not always.

Besides, what makes you think that a true and genuine metanoia will be bare of penitential acts, such as fasting?

 

[ziapueblo]

Isn’t the word you translate as ‘penance’ in the Latin vulgate metanoia in the greek…which is actaully translated repentance…not penance.

Metanoia (repentance) - a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done.

Penance - a Sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with sorrow and with the intention of amendment, followed by the forgiveness of the sin.

There does not seem to be a difference in the definition of metanoia and penance. Both are actions to change because of ones sin.

 

[tiggylou]

Many times, but not always.

Besides, what makes you think that a true and genuine metanoia will be bare of penitential acts, such as fasting?

I don’t. I don’t actually have that bigger problem with penance as I do with other RC doctrines. My problem with penance comes when it is done to regain the grace that you theoritically lost in baptism (aphesis). I guess because I don’t think that you lose grace by sinning a such - you lose it by rejecting Christ.
But I do think that faith without the outward working of that is not so good, but the outward working of faith can’t earn you grace.

 

[06convert]

God chooses us, we don’t choose him. Grace is a gift that we can reject. When we sin we tell God we don’t want his grace, when we go to the sacrament, we ask for it back. God, being always forgiving forgets our wrongdoing and fills us with grace again.

From Pillar of Fire Pillar of Truth:

Penance (CCC 1422–1498)
Sometimes on our journey toward the heavenly promised land we stumble and fall into sin. God is always ready to lift us up and to restore us to grace-filled fellowship with him. He does this through the sacrament of penance (which is also known as confession or reconciliation).

Jesus gave his apostles power and authority to reconcile us to the Father. They received Jesus’ own power to forgive sins when he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained” (John 20:22–23).

Paul notes that “all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation. . . . So, we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us” (2 Cor. 5:18–20). Through confession to a priest, God’s minister, we have our sins forgiven, and we receive grace to help us resist future temptations.

 

[rwoehmke]

I guess because I don’t think that you lose grace by sinning a such - you lose it by rejecting Christ.

Is not sin a rejection of God/Christ? I was taught that sin is the choosing of some creature/action in preference to Jesus Christ; a breaking of our relationship with him.

 

[JMJ_coder]

My problem with penance comes when it is done to regain the grace that you theoritically lost in baptism (aphesis).

First, you don’t lose grace in Baptism! Baptism is the initiation into the life of grace.

Second, penitential acts do not gain the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of serious (mortal) sin is ordinarily obtained in the Sacrament of Penance (also called the Sacrament of Reconciliation or the Sacrament of Confession).

Penitential acts are not for obtaining forgiveness, but for remissing temporal punishment due to sin and reparation. For example, sins normally cause an addition of an attraction and attachment to that sin. Penitential acts help to subdue that attachment bringing us into full devotion to God.

I guess because I don’t think that you lose grace by sinning a such - you lose it by rejecting Christ.

What is sin but an offense against God - a rejection of the Creator in favor for some part of creation.