Pentecostal pastor claims Jesus did NOT build his Church on Peter?

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Does anyone else here think that Mr. Lyons isn’t listening; but just waiting for his turn to cut-and-paste quotes from Scripture?

I can’t believe this thread has lasted this long…

FROM POST 246…
First of all, why would Jesus give Simon the name Peter if he wasn’t the rock? Just for kicks? No. He is the rock.
Still waiting for an answer to this question.
Secondly, if Peter isn’t the rock; why would Jesus give Peter ALONE the Keys to the Kingdom? The ONLY other time in Scripture that ANYONE receives a key of any kind is Isaiah 22:15-25. where Eliakim, who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given “the key of the house of David,” which he authoritatively “opens” and “shuts” (Isaiah 22:22). This is a clear example of the deputization of Peter. No one else was deputized in this way.
I haven’t seen a rebuttal for this one, either. Are you EVER going reply to what we have to say BEFORE you fling your next objection at us??? There’s an old saying that goes: “if you can’t dazzle 'em with brilliance; baffle 'em with b******t.” Ever heard that one?

Since you have so many opinions; I’m sure you must have one for my first and second defenses.
Thirdly, if we look at John 21:15-17 we see that Jesus is placing Peter in a position of leadership that the other Apostles do not have.

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep.

Jesus didn’t single out Peter for extra special instruction because he was a bigger dunce than the other eleven; Jesus was giving him his marching orders. It seems pretty obvious to so many that Peter IS the rock…

Protestantism is a whole theology founded on the “protesting” of Catholic theology and the Church; so therefore if one were to accept that Peter were indeed the rock; a Protestant would have to come to grips with the fact that he was in the wrong church.

Of course the Pentecostal minister denies that Peter is the rock (even though Peter’s name IS rock); because if he didn’t, then he’s just another guy with a Bible possessing no more authority than you or I. And if THAT were true; we wouldn’t need him at all!!!

I am curious as to which Protestant community you belong to, Bernard. Would you care to share with the rest of the class?
FROM POST 251…
We may not convince you that Peter was the rock - I can tell you are Protestant to the bone - but let me give you my deepest assurance… you will never convince us he isn’t.
You never even addressed my citation of John 21. I must say that I am somewhat disappointed. This is clearly Jesus putting Peter in a position of authority - thereby having Peter’s ministry continue what Christ started. Peter would need to be a rock to govern the fledgling Church in the face of so many challenges. The first pastor of the original mega-Church… hand-picked by Jesus Christ Himself!

I don’t think you’ve ever addressed why Jesus would rename Simon “Peter” if he wasn’t intended to be the rock.

Please look at John 1:42. Jesus renames Simon ‘Kephas’ (Rock) here, too. No mention of Peter’s faith, spirituality, or anything other than the person of Peter.


You cited 1 Cor. 10:4. Jesus is most definitely the Rock being spoken of in this passage. Does this mean that He was in error when he renamed Simon “Peter” in John and Matthew? How can they both be “ROCK”? Is it possible that the Bible can allow a title to be held by more than one person?

In Ephesians 2:20 ~ the Apostles are called the “foundation of the Church”.
In 1 Corinthians 3:11 ~ Jesus Christ is called the “Foundation of the Church”.

In 1 Corinthians 3:12 ~ the faithful build upon the foundation.
In Matthew 16:18 ~ Jesus builds upon the foundation.

In 1 Peter 2:5 ~ the faithful are called the stones of God’s spiritual house.
In Acts 4:11 ~ Jesus is called the Stone of God’s house.

In 1 Corinthians 3:16 ~ The faithful are the Temple of God.
In Revelation 21:22 ~ Jesus is the Temple of God.

In Acts 20:28 ~ the Apostles are called the bishops of the flock.
In 1 Peter 2:25 ~ Jesus is called the Bishop of the flock.

Just because God and Jesus are called “ROCK”, that does not preclude that title from belonging to anyone else, does it? Is Jesus BOTH the Builder and the Rock? Heavenly/divine attributes are often shared in the NT, aren’t they?

Matthew 16:19 ~ Jesus gives the keys to the kingdom of heaven (the House of God) to Peter.
Revelation 3:7 ~ Jesus has the Key of David (the House of God).

Matthew 16:19 ~ Peter has the authority to bind and loose (open and shut).
Revelation 3:7 ~ Jesus has the Authority to open and shut (bind and loose).

In Luke 22:30 ~ The Apostles sit upon heavenly thrones.
In Revelation 7:10, 11, 15, 17 God sits upon His heavenly throne.

None of this in any way takes away from God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit.
Are you ever going to answer what I had to say?
 
Not until the return of the ‘cornerstone’ will we all truly know the entirety of that which constitutes what Peter terms ‘a spiritual house’.
The only way anyone would not understand the real meaning of what Peter refers to as ‘a spiritual house’, would be if they were only looking at it from a strictly temporal (carnal) point of view, instead of from a spiritual one. Or, if they were intentionally avoiding the actual truth, so they didn’t have to give up their own personal interpretations. He’s certainly not talking about any old physical house with four walls, even if it has a steeple sitting on top of it’s roof. He’s talking about the Body of Christ, the people of His Church that He founded on Peter; and the souls of all those that He came to ransom from the sins of this world; all those who continue to faithfully follow Him until the end, when He finally comes back to Judge the whole world. "[1] Wherefore laying away all malice, and all guile, and dissimulations, and envies, and all detractions, [2] As newborn babes, desire the rational milk without guile, that thereby you may grow unto salvation: [3] If so be you have tasted that the Lord is sweet. [4] Unto whom coming, as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen and made honourable by God: [5] Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."Even I know exactly what he means by what he said, and I’m not all that bright! He’s talking about the Catholic Church! What other Church has a “holy priesthood” that offers “spiritual sacrifices” to God, like the Jewish Priests offered daily sacrifices in the Temple? Why do you suppose the Catholic Church calls it the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?
Truly there will be some saints when he comes again ,for these ‘shall be caught up together with them in the clouds’((1Thess 4:17) but for me it seems that luke18:8 significantly limits the number of saints faithful to that Gospel truly preached in the beginning.

‘Nevertheless when the son of man cometh,shall he find faith on the earth?’
Exactly! But, true Saints are very few and far between. That’s because far too many of us get drawn away from God, either by the debauchery of the world that’s much more attractive to us; or we just plain lose what little faith we had for lack of following exactly what Jesus taught us; or because we start following teachers ‘with itching ears’ that lead us into serious error. All of those things will continue to draw people away from God, but especially so, just before Jesus returns.

Peter also tells us about those in the end days who would begin to say, “Where is His promise, and His coming?” But, he adds that God is patient, and waits for us all to return to penance. Most people these days run away or plug their ears whenever anyone even mentions the word ‘penance’, because they don’t want to think they need to do anything to make reparation for their own sins. They’d much rather believe that Jesus paid the entire debt in full, so they’re off the hook. While that is somewhat true, He did not take away the necessity for our doing penance. People often give the example of the good thief to argue that penance was not required in his case. But, they usually forget about the great suffering that he also went through on his own cross, which was sufficient penance to pay for his whole lifetime of personal sins.
This day already known of the Father and this verse through the Spirit of God,recorded for us,is not inconsistent to that picture seen ( foreseen ) else’s where:
‘But as the days of Noah were ,so shall also the coming of the son of man be’(Matthew 27)
Of a world of great multitudes,how many were to be found in safety ,upon the ark?
Even with as many people as there were at that point in time, it isn’t even close to the population of the entire world, now. Hopefully, the number of those that are ‘caught up’ will be much greater than the few saved in Noah’s Ark. All things being equal, the number of those lost will most likely also be far greater than it was, then. That doesn’t mean that all the others will go to hell, but many surely will. Either way, it’s not for us to ponder over when those things will happen.
If ,perhaps ,the end is much nearer than that which we imagine it to be
‘For in such an hour as ye think not the son of man cometh’(Matthew24;44)

Then what of the millions upon millions of Catholics( and Protestants ) unto this very hour?
Why should we be concerned about the numbers, or about what anyone else believes, at all? What we should be most concerned about is what we believe, and whether or not we’re absolutely sure of it being the real truth. After that, all we can really to do is remain spiritually prepared for it, every day. We should leave it all up to God to worry about when it will happen. We really can’t change any of that, except through lots of prayer and penance, for ourselves and for others. We should all pray for each other, first of all, to be enlightened to the truth. Even if we think we, or others, are already enlightened, we should continue to pray that we will all remain faithful to Jesus, and not fall into despair or abandon Him when bad things start to happen. After that, all we can do is hope that God’s Mercy will triumph over His Justice. Otherwise, most of us will be in very deep doodoo. :bigyikes:
 
Does anyone else here think that Mr. Lyons isn’t listening; but just waiting for his turn to cut-and-paste quotes from Scripture?
Yes, I am getting the same impression.

While I certainly do not believe Mr. Lyons to be insulting or accusational, each reply seems to throw in several Scriptures which really do not help the cause. The principles we are dealing with here are humility and brotherhood.

Holding fast to the Tradition of the Office of St Peter is ceasing division for us. It doesnt mean we should set aside the Holy Spirit and let the hierarchy of Rome dictate what is right and wrong. But it is the Holy Spirit which convicts us to be obedient among the brotherhood because that was the desire of our High Priest.

We live in a time of good shepherds. John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis (to name just the recent) have all been men of peace with reputaions of great devotion. This is what Scripture says about how we are to view our leaders:

Hebrews 13

17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls and will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with sighing—for that would be harmful to you.

18 Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things. 19 I urge you all the more to do this, so that I may be restored to you very soon.

Benediction
20 Now may the God of peace, who brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, 21 make you complete in everything good so that you may do his will, working among us[d] that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

We do not pit the office of Peter against the High Priesthood of Christ! He is always the founder and protector of the Papacy. He prayed for Peter to srengthen the brotherhood. We ought to do the same! We are all in the priesthood, therefore our prayers and spiritual offerings have merit for our leaders. Merely being a Pope does not make a man great in God’s eyes. The Lord said to Peter and the others, whoever is the greatest among you will be the least, and build up the rest. Then He directly spoke with Peter about His vulnerability and commision. This comes with the seat of great authority!

If someone is scandalized by the office of the Pope, they do not really appreciate the brotherhood of Christ. The authority of Christ was handed to Peter by Himself, which is recorded in Scripture! Who can take it away? Who can attempt to give it back to Christ? By honoring the authority which the Pope was given by Christ, we are honoring Christ. It is enough for us to keep the commandments of Christ without disputing who has the authority.

I choose to pray for my leaders. I choose to do my best not to hinder their work and even help if possible. I do this in the hope that my wife and children would have the same spirit towards me, because I know how much I need their prays and blessings to be a good husband and father.

Peace Bernard! I am glad you are in the forum and enjoy your fellowship and zeal. It doesnt cause me anxiety if Christians struggle with the Chair of Peter. We all restle with God some. I hope you have good fellowship among your brothers where you receive the communion of Our Lord.
 
Does anyone else here think that Mr. Lyons isn’t listening; but just waiting for his turn to cut-and-paste quotes from Scripture?
Yes, I am getting the same impression.

While I certainly do not believe Mr. Lyons to be insulting or accusational, each reply seems to throw in several Scriptures which really do not help the cause.
I agree.

Ultimately… Jesus built His Church on the rock of Peter or He didn’t. 🤷 I read somewhere that “more ink has been spilled over Matt 16:18 than any other verse in the entire Bible.”

I dare say more keystrokes have been pressed as well…
 
My own belief is therefore ,that for those saints and faithful followers upon the earth,irrespective of however large or small in number,in any generation,Christ ,by the sending of the gift of the holy Spirit to,never does ,and never will leave them.
He said that He would send the Holy Spirit, specifically to the Apostles, first, and to the disciples that they chose and blessed to preach the Gospel. Also, to the others that would follow them, until the end of days."[26] But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me. [27] And you shall give testimony, because you are with me from the beginning. " The Apostles received their ordination and became Priests when Jesus breathed the Holy Ghost on them to give them their powers to preach and forgive sins, etc…

And, St. Paul says:"2 Corinthians 10: [14] For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as if we reached not unto you. For we are come as far as to you in the gospel of Christ. [15] Not glorying beyond measure in other men’s labours; but having hope of your increasing faith, to be magnified in you according to our rule abundantly;

[16] Yea, unto those places that are beyond you, to preach the gospel, not to glory in another man’s rule, in those things that are made ready to our hand. [17] But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. [18] For not he who commendeth himself, is approved, but he, whom God commendeth. "
He did not give the same gift of the Holy Spirit to all of His followers, even if they followed His teachings. Nor did He give the gift of the Holy Spirit to anyone else in the world. Some, like the Apostles, received that special blessing to preach the Gospel, to perform Baptisms and the Breaking of Bread, which was not imposed in the same way as the rest of the faithful were given the gift of the Holy Spirit. Those were things that only those who belonged to the Priesthood of Christ, were given the power to perform.

Even though we are all said to be part of a ‘priesthood’, the gift of the holy Priesthood of the Apostles was not given to anyone except those who received that special grace, directly through the “laying on of hands” from an Apostle (or Bishop); from the time of the first Priests and Bishops (Apostles), all the way up to the Bishops who continue to impart that special gift to Bishops and Priests in the present day, it’s basically been done in that same way. The gift that Jesus gave to the Apostles is only conferred through the same means which they first used to pass it on to others (through the Sacrament of Holy Orders).

That doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit cannot inspire others, such as Saul/Paul. But, those extraordinary instances are few and far between. Even he went to the Apostles to receive their approval and blessing for his work, because he was inspired to do so through a ‘revelation’.
As to that ‘falling away’ since the close of scripture,we need not venture outside of the same recorded testimony:

Paul declares 1Timothy1:15 ,‘all they of Asia be turned away from me’
Even earlier, the weak ones turned away from Jesus in John 6, because they didn’t believe what He said. They only saw things from that same temporal perspective I mentioned, earlier, because they had no understanding of spirituality. They were hoping for a temporal king to lead them to defeat their earthly enemies, like the Romans.
Peter ,knowing his own death was near warns his readers ,of those who ,in regards to Paul’s writings ( the same ,being equal to scripture) would ‘wrest’ his holy words,‘as they do also the other scripture’(2Peter 3:16)
As I said in another post, Peter refers to the misinterpretation of all scripture. He says that, in contrast, Paul has a real gift of interpretation, because he subjected himself to the Authority of the Church.
Of the seven churches mentioned at the beginning of the Revelation ,what faithfulness is recorded ( for us) in way of praise by this revelation to the ‘churches’ ?
Very little!
Very true. It’s clear that God always sees who is truly faithful, and who is not. But, there will always be a faithful remnant that remains in His Church. To believe any differently, is to deny the power of Jesus and the Holy Spirit to do exactly what He said They would do, until the end.
‘He that hath an ear,let him hear’

Notice the cry by the Spirit,is it not for an individual hearer in the midst of all that professed to his name?
Absolutely, but it will only be ‘one’ who has the true gift of the Holy Spirit, and not someone who is trying to interpret Scripture on his own.
John in his epistle mentions and reminds his readers,on a number of occasions,about ‘that which was from the beginning’
Already in his own long ,lifetime,things apparently,with only this apostle remaining,were dangerously slipping away,then what after he had gone?
The true followers of Jesus will always continue. The Apostles weren’t idiots, as so many people seem to imply by their disbelief, or more accurately, their complete lack of faith. They passed on all of their knowledge, as well as their own powers, to the Priests and Bishops whom they ordained, and therefore on to the rest that would eventually follow them, and so on, and so on… until Jesus comes, again.
 
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