Pentecostalism: "Catholicism without priests?"

[ltwin]

The other day I came across this blog Sentire cum Ecclesia with a February 2008 post entitled “Pentecostalism closer to Catholicism than any other form of Protestantism?”. It was very interesting and made me want to do more research. I read the article the blog was commenting on, “If demography is destiny, Pentecostals are the ecumenical future”. It said in part:

Yet on some key issues that formed the fault lines of the Protestant Reformation, Pentecostals are arguably closer to Catholics than to the Evangelicals. While classical Protestants stress the doctrine of sola scriptura, that the Bible alone is the only guide to faith, Pentecostals believe in on-going revelation through the Spirit. Similarly, classical Protestantism believes in salvation through faith alone, while many strains of Pentecostalism believe in a faith manifested in holy living and the fruits of the spirit – in other words, both faith and works. Pentecostals and Catholics also tend to see grace and nature as complementary, unlike classic Reformation theology which sees a radical discontinuity. Pentecostalism has a sensual, earthy spirituality similar to some forms of popular Catholic devotion.

For these reasons, Harvey Cox has dubbed Pentecostalism “Catholicism without priests,” meaning an expression of folk spirituality without the Roman juridical system or complicated scholastic theology. Despite strong tensions between Pentecostals and Catholics, these structural parallels suggest a basis for long-term dialogue. They also may help explain why so many Catholics in various parts of the world have found Pentecostalism congenial, since it’s not entirely foreign to their own religious instincts.

The quote by Cox caught my attention, and I dug it out of his book Fire from heaven: the rise of pentecostal spirituality and the reshaping of religion in the twenty-first century, page 178:

[Rolim] found that most of the people from Nova Iguacu [Brazil] who joined pentecostal churches had not been religiously illiterate before but had been more or less active participants in some form of popular or folk Catholicism. Rolim sees folk Catholicism -with its unauthorized shrines, amulets, milagros (miracles), and fiestas-as itself a popular protest against hierarchically controlled religion. From this perspective, pentecostalism merely takes another step. It provides unmediated access to God and healing that comes from prayer and does not even require holy water, scapulas, or tiring pilgrimages to holy places. Instead of a pantheon of saints to be invoked for various kinds of help, pentecostals now have the Bible . . . Rolim also interprets “speaking in tongues” as a kind of protest that verbally unskilled people can use to be heard, and to gain some of the attention that normally focuses on “speakers.” In effect, says Rolim, folk Catholicism is a kind of staging ground, a personal and cultural preparation for pentecostalism, and pentecostalism is not Protestantism. It is what another writer calls “Catholicism without priests,” a radical religious and symbolic movement that could eventually bring a thorough-going, even revolutionary change to the South American continent.

I’m curious about what others think about this. Living in a North American context, Pentecostals consider themselves and are usually considered by others as within the evangelical wing of Protestantism. I can see, however, how we could have more in common on some issues with Catholicism, and it would make since that in other parts of the world the “evangelicalization” of Pentecostalism would be less pronounced. Anyway, I thought this would make an interesting thread.

 

[Old_Medic]

Most Pentacostals, while having SOME similar beliefs, would consider the Catholic Church to be the Mother of heresy and absolutely not valid in any sense of the word.

They do not, in any way, shape or form, accept the Catholic Church as being a legitimate Christian Church. They would consider it to be a bed of iniquity at best, and the work of the Devil at worst.

 

[ltwin]

I would have to take issue with your post. There are are Pentecostals who are suspicious of Catholicism. However, there are just as many or more who consider Catholics legitimate Christians and the Catholic Church a legitimate Christian denomination but with recognized doctrinal disagreements from themselves. We need to remember that the Vatican has been in ongoing dialogue with Pentecostals for years now.

 

[asd72]

Which Pentecostal church do you belong to Itwin, if you don’t mind sharing.

 

[OchsFam]

While classical Protestants stress the doctrine of sola scriptura, that the Bible alone is the only guide to faith, Pentecostals believe in on-going revelation through the Spirit.

I think this would need a significant quantifier before we can say we agree on this. From my understanding, Pentecostals believe that this is not simply a private revelation, but a public revelation which is not what Catholics believe.

I will admit that I do not know many Pentecostals but if you are anything like Mormons in this concept, you do not agree with the Catholic Church because no revelation can contradict what has already been revealed by Christ and all public revelation is complete.

God Bless.

 

[SteveVH]

Any similarities seem to be very much on the surface, in my opinion. As was mentioned above, even the concept of “on-going revelation” would be different for a Catholic than a Pentecostal. When we get to doctrines, such as the Eucharist, the “Communion of Saints”, “Purgatory”, etc., those issues which really matter, we are miles apart. Personally I don’t think Harvey Cox knows what he is talking about.

 

[ltwin]

Which Pentecostal church do you belong to Itwin, if you don’t mind sharing.

I attend a Pentecostal church which was started as a Pentecostal Church of God, a denomination almost identical to the Assemblies of God. Before I was born, the church went non-denom. Today, our theological foundations are still in classical North American Pentecostalism, so we believe that speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. There is also a visible Word of Faith and prosperity gospel current through much of its teaching today, which is unfortunate. Our worship services tend to be very “enthusiastic,” much more than most (white) Pentecostal churches in our area.

From 4th grade until high school I attended a Christian academy ran by the local Pentecostal Holiness Church. For a time, my family went to a Pentecostal Holiness Church for a year or so. I am pretty comfortable with their theology and practice.

If you want to know where I stand among the many Pentecostalisms that are out there, I guess I’d have to say that I am most in agreement with the Assemblies of God. And if there was an AG church in my area I would seriously consider becoming a member.

 

[asd72]

I think because there are so many Pentecostal denominations it is difficult to say, but the theology does seem usually similar to Evangelicals. I hope of course that any dialogue between the Catholic Church and Pentecostals continues to move forward.

I am beginning to think there is something in this Baptism of the Holy Spirit though personally.

 

[ltwin]

I think this would need a significant quantifier before we can say we agree on this. From my understanding, Pentecostals believe that this is not simply a private revelation, but a public revelation which is not what Catholics believe.

I will admit that I do not know many Pentecostals but if you are anything like Mormons in this concept, you do not agree with the Catholic Church because no revelation can contradict what has already been revealed by Christ and all public revelation is complete.

God Bless.

Well, you wont see any (legitimate) Pentecostal group writing a new testament or anything. Concerning the gift of prophecy, it is still present within the church and will not cease until the perfect has come (and the “perfect” does not refer to the completion of the canon). Revelations which contradict the Scriptures or attempt to add to or take away from the Scriptures, even if conveyed by an angel, are to be rejected. The purpose of prophecy for sinners is to lead to repentance and for the church, to uplift and encourage, incite to faithful obedience and service, and to bring comfort and consolation.

Pentecostalism subscribes to sola scriptura as stated by Cecil Robeck, Jr. in a 1980 Pneuma article “Written Prophecies: A Question of Authority,” page 26:

[Scripture] is a fixed, finished, and objective revelation. Indeed, pentecostals and charismatics alike have regarded the Bible as their “all sufficient rule for faith and practice.”

James K. A. Smith, however, in a 1997 Journal of Pentecostal Theology article “The Closing of the Book: Pentecostals, Evangelicals, and the Sacred Writings,” argues that Pentecostal experience does not mesh with Sola Scriptura. He proposes that Pentecostals need to live into their own tradition, which is orally based rather than textually based. He writes, “Orality, then, is the primary or primordial way of being for the New Testament community.” He goes on to say,

It is precisely this oral way of being which has, I would propose, been recaptured in contemporary charismatic communities . . . Steven Land in his seminal work, Pentecostal Spirituality, where he emphasizes this ‘narrativity’ at the heart of Pentecostalism. Perhaps the oral nature of Pentecostalism is best captured in the emphasis on glossolalia, which cannot be written nor can it be repeated. It is a mode of expression which resists literacy, and even hovers at the edge of language, being ‘sighs too deep for words’ (Rom. 8:26). Frank Macchia has also suggested that the role of tongues is almost sacramental in nature, akin to the ‘real presence’ of Christ in the Eucharist. . . .

The canon-that which keeps our weaving straight-I would propose, is the Holy Spirit, not a collection of writings. The Spirit of Christ is the norm or standard for faith, and that Spirit stands in authority over both Scripture and prophecy . . . .

The same Spirit that guided the first Christian community continues to inhabit the contemporary church and illumines it as a community . . . .

Such a position requires a high level of discernment and oversight so that heresy and other doctrinal abberations are not allowed to emerge. Most Pentecostal groups as constituted now are not at this point.

I suppose then depending on who you ask, Pentecostals could with accuracy be described as adhering to sola scriptura or prima scriptura. In either case, prophecy and all other revelations must be tested by the word of God.

 

[ltwin]

I am beginning to think there is something in this Baptism of the Holy Spirit though personally.

Could you elaborate please?

 

[miztyzo562]

I was working at a FEMA site with Blackwater in Lake Charles in a Pentacostal Church, and the girl who closed the church down at night told me. “Its like Catholic Light” LOL

 

[Izdaari]

Most Pentacostals, while having SOME similar beliefs, would consider the Catholic Church to be the Mother of heresy and absolutely not valid in any sense of the word.

They do not, in any way, shape or form, accept the Catholic Church as being a legitimate Christian Church. They would consider it to be a bed of iniquity at best, and the work of the Devil at worst.

Pentecostal here, member of an Assemblies of God church.

I have certainly heard some criticism of Catholicism at my church, not from the pulpit, but mainly from members who are former Catholics and a little bitter about their experiences. But I have never heard anyone say that Catholics are not legitimately Christians.

I have carried Catholic Bibles to church several times and gotten no comments. And some of our members (including me when I can) like to go to the big Episcopal cathedral for Compline on Sunday night. Btw, that includes some of the same people I’ve heard be critical of Catholicism. St. Mark’s in Seattle is well known for its lovely Compline service, which is broadcast live on KING-FM radio.

 

[Izdaari]

I attend a Pentecostal church which was started as a Pentecostal Church of God, a denomination almost identical to the Assemblies of God. Before I was born, the church went non-denom. Today, our theological foundations are still in classical North American Pentecostalism, so we believe that speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. There is also a visible Word of Faith and prosperity gospel current through much of its teaching today, which is unfortunate. Our worship services tend to be very “enthusiastic,” much more than most (white) Pentecostal churches in our area.

From 4th grade until high school I attended a Christian academy ran by the local Pentecostal Holiness Church. For a time, my family went to a Pentecostal Holiness Church for a year or so. I am pretty comfortable with their theology and practice.

If you want to know where I stand among the many Pentecostalisms that are out there, I guess I’d have to say that I am most in agreement with the Assemblies of God. And if there was an AG church in my area I would seriously consider becoming a member.

My AG church is not at all WoFish. We’re more like conservative Methodists + the charisms. And we’re “quiet Pentecostals”; people raise hands, but mostly we’re not loud, except sometimes for the praise & worship band, which does feature electric guitars and unmuffled drums.

 

[asd72]

Could you elaborate please?

Well I have only been a Christian for 18 months or so. I haven’t received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I have been wary if it was real or some kind of emotionalism. I am now coming to believe it is real and something I want.

 

[TrueLight]

Most Pentacostals, while having SOME similar beliefs, would consider the Catholic Church to be the Mother of heresy and absolutely not valid in any sense of the word.

They do not, in any way, shape or form, accept the Catholic Church as being a legitimate Christian Church. They would consider it to be a bed of iniquity at best, and the work of the Devil at worst.

 

[ltwin]

Well I have only been a Christian for 18 months or so. I haven’t received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I have been wary if it was real or some kind of emotionalism. I am now coming to believe it is real and something I want.

The best advice I can give you is to pray about and, if you are led to explore this more, seek out an authorized charismatic group within your parish or area. This is an article on Spirit baptism written by Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, Papal preacher to Pope John Paul II’s Pontifical household, so I think it will give you a good idea about it from a Catholic charismatic perspective.

Pentecostals cherish the baptism or being filled with the Spirit because it is an experience of such overflowing love and empowerment that the person truly is changed. I have found it really interesting to read the testimonies of early Pentecostals and note how truly transformative it was for them.

Though the important thing to remember is that one experience or event does not make one “Spirit filled.” That comes by being open and receptive to the Spirit everyday of our lives.

 

[asd72]

The best advice I can give you is to pray about and, if you are led to explore this more, seek out an authorized charismatic group within your parish or area. This is an article on Spirit baptism written by Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, Papal preacher to Pope John Paul II’s Pontifical household, so I think it will give you a good idea about it from a Catholic charismatic perspective.

Pentecostals cherish the baptism or being filled with the Spirit because it is an experience of such overflowing love and empowerment that the person truly is changed. I have found it really interesting to read the testimonies of early Pentecostals and note how truly transformative it was for them.

Though the important thing to remember is that one experience or event does not make one “Spirit filled.” That comes by being open and receptive to the Spirit everyday of our lives.

Yes I have found a Charismatic course to attend.

I am familiar with with Fr Cantalamessa, he is great.

Thank you for your advice.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Anglican here. I attended a Catholic charismatic prayer group for a year or so back in the 70s and found it truly uplifting and Spirit-filled. My favorite memory is the charismatic Mass and how it really felt like we were participating in the worship of Heaven itself.

 

[A_Catholic]

I’m confused, True Light. On another thread you argued with me that Protestants believe Catholics worship the same God as they do, and do not look at Catholics as heretics. And yet you’re agreeing with this (incidentally, I also agree with this statement). Have you changed your mind?

 

[SteveVH]

I think because there are so many Pentecostal denominations it is difficult to say, but the theology does seem usually similar to Evangelicals. I hope of course that any dialogue between the Catholic Church and Pentecostals continues to move forward.

I am beginning to think there is something in this Baptism of the Holy Spirit though personally.

Trust me, there is definately something in this “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”. The Catholic Church was the original “charismatic” Church (i.e. Pentecost) and we have forgotten our roots. I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit about six years ago and it has done nothing but bolster my Catholic faith. My current pastor is the head of the Charismatic Renewal in our diocese and I feel very fortunate to be a part of this renewal in our Church.