People, by not speaking up, we are giving assent

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InspiritCarol

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I finally braved up and trumpeted my pro-life status to all my “friends” on Facebook, even though I KNOW that a significant portion of them are “pro-Choice”.

So some “friends” posted links in support of Planned Parenthood. Alas, they are misguided, as I have come to learn only since having children of my own. This link is only the latest I have come across after six years of hands-on research, and actually talking with women who have suffered irreparable damage from their abortions. People, by not speaking up, we are giving assent.

abortionfacts.com/planned_parenthood/planned_parenthood.asp
In the comments section I wrote the following:

I welcome all questions and discourse regarding this. I know I have several avid Planned Parenthood supporters and I continue to love them even as I ache for them to know what I now know.

I’m posting this thread here, to let people know what a weight has been lifted off of me. Perhaps you too are being convicted in this matter. Please just do remember to be kind; we are bombarded with lies from infancy.
 
That’s fine, but not everybody is called to witness in this manner. I don’t think it’s fair to say that by not engaging in direct debate that we are guilty in some manner of support.

That being said, go get 'em!
 
Newbie2 said:
That’s fine, but not everybody is called to witness in this manner. I don’t think it’s fair to say that by not engaging in direct debate that we are guilty in some manner of support.

That being said, go get 'em!
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I do agree in this and yes, go get them good!

👍
 
I certainly see what you are saying. Oops; didn’t mean to sound judgmental. Yikes.

Still, do you not agree that silence begs assumptions?

Further, does it not stand to reason that those assumptions would be derived from the seeming popular consensus?

When we are bombarded with pro-Abortion, “pro-Choice” advocacy at every turn, are we really being fair to our friends who do assume we are lock-step with what has been presented as the “smart”, “caring” solution? Just asking – not answering here for you. For me and for many others I am sure the answer is a very solid “no”.

BTW: I absolutely loathe those “Change your status if you love Jesus” type trends.

It’s absolutely up to you as to whether you are being convicted or not. Might I offer my services as support in such debates? If not me, you can see from other threads that there are more than a few individuals who can help.

Hey, thanks for pointing out my error.
 
Having said that, here’s already what I am hearing back.
Thank you for being willing to hear from both sides of the debate! Most people aren’t. I was frustrated to hear about the legislation that recently passed in the house to pull federal funding from Planned Parenthood. Not because I feel that federal funds should be used to cover elective(no medical necessity) abortions. I personally loathe abortion. My frustration is over the fact that Planned Parenthood makes many other health services, including cancer screening and prenatal care available to low income women. I see this as another right-wing effort to keep health care from being accessible to low income people. Planned Parenthood is already prohibited by law from allocating federal funds for abortion services. Thank you again for inviting all of us on both sides to share our opinions!
To which I responded:
Great comment, “Jane(not her real name)”. There are two false dilemmas here.

1.You are so right, Planned Parenthood does draw in low income women, but then pulls what we call a bait-and-switch. Instead of offering real alternatives to terminating their baby, Planned Parenthood throws up the false dilemma of a mother being “stuck” with another mouth to feed. Given the alternative of paying $600 now or $60,000 over the baby’s life, practical women are being forced into a corner without the proper information on what they are carrying inside of them.
  1. It is completely false to claim that impoverished people would go without care without the great auspices of Planned Parenthood. I have assisted at many charities throughout my life that have helped people to find clinics and doctors’ offices that accept Medicaid that do not then encourage infanticide. - You’re a loving mother, don’t you agree with this definition?
    Thanks again for your response, please let me know if I am being unfair or unkind.
    And she came back with the following.
    Where did you hear about ‘bait and switch’?
    Now HERE’s where it gets good. (TBC).
 
Hey. Again, a good question.
I have been informed of that tactic directly by three different women who went into PP for pre-natal care and found themselves frightened into making the worst decision of their lives. Worse, they were lied to. There are also a plethora of former PP staff like the recent Abby Johnson case that have come forward regarding this. Additionally, there are “stings” where people have gone in and recorded their counseling sessions.

Now I know this kind of word-of-mouth individual testimony is not enough to bear up under scrutiny, so I checked out their website. Here’s what they have under “adoption information” for “pregnancy options”.

Some Things to Ask Yourself If You Are Thinking About Adoption
o Am I ready to be a parent?
o Can I afford to be a parent now?
o What would it mean for my future if I had a child now?
o Can I accept not being my child’s primary parent?
o Does adoption feel like what I should do, not what I want to do?
o Would I consider abortion?
o Is someone pressuring me to choose adoption?
o Am I prepared to go through pregnancy and childbirth?
o Will I be able to cope with the feeling of loss that I may have?
o Do I have people in my life who will help me through the pregnancy and adoption process?
o How do I feel about other women who choose to place their children for adoption?
o How important is it to me what other people will think about my decision?

“Jane”. As a stable, well grounded, well situated parent, I know how I would have answered these questions with my first pregnancy.
o Am I ready to be a parent?
No one is ever ready for this.
o Can I afford to be a parent now?
IDK, CAN I? This is a false fear. I know some people out here who thrive off of $400/month take home, with 4 kids.
o What would it mean for my future if I had a child now?
Wow. This is such a false dilemma. I had a very difficult pregnancy, yet stayed at my job until the day before giving birth, and was back at it the day after I got out of the hospital. Again: FEAR.
o Can I accept not being my child’s primary parent?
What does this even mean? At another point, PP says that adoption is permanent, legal separation from your child (though another point they contradict themselves); I have seen arrangements that were not this way and we have all heard stories countering this claim.
o Does adoption feel like what I should do, not what I want to do?
Sooo knowing that we “should” do something is now bad?
o Would I consider abortion?
******* WHY IS THIS HERE? ****** Here’s your “bait and switch” right here, my friend. If they were being too subtle up until this point, which I assure you, they were not, they’ve placed an ad for their very lucrative services right here in the adoption section.
o Is someone pressuring me to choose adoption?
~sigh~ Is someone pressuring you to go to school and get an education? It’s called being a parent and doing the right thing.
o Am I prepared to go through pregnancy and childbirth?
Who on this Earth IS? I know I wasn’t. Oh my goodness; here I sit, 24 weeks into my 5th pregnancy and I’m STILL not “prepared”.
o Will I be able to cope with the feeling of loss that I may have?
THAT’s royal: the mother feels loss through adoption not abortion. Hmmm…
o Do I have people in my life who will help me through the pregnancy and adoption process?
I don’t know about you, but I had people coming out of the woodwork to help me. “Aunties” that not only coached me through everything, but who helped with babysitting and childcare from the start.
o How do I feel about other women who choose to place their children for adoption?
How often do we feel negatively about things until we are forced to go through them ourselves?
o How important is it to me what other people will think about my decision?
“Jane”, I could go on with this, but I hope it is very clear just from this small example taken directly from the PP site-About Adoption | Placing Your Child For Adoption

At another point on their site (-http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/pregnancy/pregnant-now-what-4253.htm) they write:
But beware of so-called “crisis pregnancy centers”. These are fake clinics run by people who are anti-abortion. They often don’t give women all their options. They have a history of scaring women into not having abortions. Absolutely no one should pressure you or trick you into making a decision you’re not comfortable with.

“Jane”, I am so glad I went and did this. What an eye opening experience. Would that every mother who doubts the motives of PP performed this exercise trying to place herself in the shoes of a frightened young girl. It seems to me the reason that the abortion rate is so high among blacks (3x more likely than whites) and low income girls, is because that is where PP operates.
 
You know what to me is so sad, in all the nevertheless-sincere answers to the above questions? (Not to mention the questions themselves) It supposes that the human being has evolved over time to be an exclusively feminine-reproducing species. “I,” “I,” “I,” “I,” ad nauseam.

WHERE IS THE EQUAL DNA-PROVIDER-SPERM-DONOR in this picture? Anything wrong with this picture, folks?

How did we ever pass a single law allowing the male to have zero responsibility for something he is (at least) 50% responsible for?

Why is he not REQUIRED to show up and step up to the plate – if for no other reason to face discomfort and embarrassment, and the inconvenience of his time, etc.?

Why is she not required to name the paternity of the child? And if she doesn’t know paternity (God forbid – if she’s been that voluntarily promiscuous), why is there no law allowing her to name all her lovers and requiring them forcibly to get a paternity test?

Why doesn’t HE have to see videos of sonograms, etc.?

Why isn’t HE being asked about adoption?

Why? Because Planned Parenthood and the “feminist” lobby are anything but feminist unless they begin demanding full accountability for pregancy, of men. When it starts being really uncomfortable for men to be irresponsible, they will start thinking about their behavior beforehand.

Even the concept of that, discussed in the general public, would perhaps begin to get unmarried women to think about why they are the enablers of men who currently bear no responsibility for the use of their sex drive.

So yes, even though it seems off-topic for the thread (given what the OP is discussing, about Facebook), how about turning the discussion on its head, and asking that directly on Facebook: Why indeed, is the product of this behavior 100% a female responsibility? Oh you ‘forward-looking,’ ‘progressive,’ supposedly-so-modern-young-people hip enough to use Facebook as your primary communication method: Are you serious? Can you spell r-e-t-r-o?
 
Here is Father Corapi speaking to this:

youtube.com/watch?v=pTHmn13v7Ts

We have been conditioned - all of us. “Keep your beliefs off my body!” was one image I saw on TV. We have no right to speak because we cannot force others to do our will. Who allowed this? Why was this allowed? And where is the man? After giving her consent and getting pregnant, we are conditioned to believe the man involved also has no say. Why do we believe this? Is the woman alone responsible? NO.

Wake up, my brothers and sisters. Wake up from a law and a media that tells you it’s OK.

I know that if no one complains then others can say, “See. No one’s complaining.” With truth and charity - we know - all of us began life as a human embryo.

Peace,
Ed
 
InspiritCarol said:
I certainly see what you are saying. Oops; didn’t mean to sound judgmental. Yikes.

Still, do you not agree that silence begs assumptions?

Further, does it not stand to reason that those assumptions would be derived from the seeming popular consensus?

When we are bombarded with pro-Abortion, “pro-Choice” advocacy at every turn, are we really being fair to our friends who do assume we are lock-step with what has been presented as the “smart”, “caring” solution? Just asking – not answering here for you. For me and for many others I am sure the answer is a very solid “no”.

BTW: I absolutely loathe those “Change your status if you love Jesus” type trends.

It’s absolutely up to you as to whether you are being convicted or not. Might I offer my services as support in such debates? If not me, you can see from other threads that there are more than a few individuals who can help.

Hey, thanks for pointing out my error.
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I would say that in the appropriate setting, or if asked, I’d agree that we need to speak our minds. But, I don’t use Facebook to air my personal opinions; I leave all that stuff blank about me. Perhaps I’m from “that older generation” where we maybe aren’t as free about giving out information about our opinions and our personal information. 🤷

So, no, I don’t really think silence begs assumptions…at least as far as I am concerned.
 
Ahhh. A breath of fresh air and clear-mindedness. ~sniff~

THANK you, Elizabeth502.
Elizabeth502 said:
You know what to me is so sad,
…
So yes, even though it seems off-topic for the thread (given what the OP is discussing, about Facebook), how about turning the discussion on its head, and asking that directly on Facebook: Why indeed, is the product of this behavior 100% a female responsibility? Oh you ‘forward-looking,’ ‘progressive,’ supposedly-so-modern-young-people hip enough to use Facebook as your primary communication method: Are you serious? Can you spell r-e-t-r-o?
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I had a variation on this published in a letter to the Editor for the Local Newspaper.

Basically, the gist of my point (though I like yours much better), is that by making abortions expected for young women, we have taken away their choice to keep the baby. Before Roe-v-Wade, men were expected to step up to the plate and take responsibility for the child they helped create. Now they just demand the woman kill the child; they often pick up the tab; and that is where their involvement ends. What kind of choice is that? How can you claim to be pro-woman, yet create such a pit of destruction for us?

BTW, FB is not *my *primary means of communication (by far), but it is a platform for potential discussion.
 
Carol: you set an absolutely good–great–example. We all need to show what we stand for.

Eliz; I agree entirely with you about male complicity here, and you already know the patterned response “my body, etc.” from women. You ALSO get the anti-male, “who are YOU to be involved here?”

And of course, cognizant males deep inside recognize their complicity.
 
Captain,
Thanks so much – not for the compliment but for your honest recognition! Darn tootin’ that guys know deep down.

I also completely agree with you on the language part, and I similarly blame women for this. “Your” body, maybe, but not more than half “your” child. ! Therefore it is neither exclusively your decision (regarding outcomes) nor exclusively your responsibility to raise, finance, etc.

What women are really saying – I’ve said before on this forum – is that they enjoy and accept prostituting themselves for guys. In fact, it’s really worse than prostitution: it’s sexual slavery. The women aren’t getting paid – they’re giving their bodies away. As to what another poster said about guys paying for the abortion: actually, much of the time they do no such thing. It’s on her dime. So double slavery, double degradation. How is this “liberation”? They’ve lost me on that.

To the OP:
I didn’t mean to imply that you personally do most of your communication via Facebook. I was referring to the so-called new generation who fancy themselves so hip and so forward looking (Facebook being the supposed indication of that), when what they’re doing with their bodies is positively medieval – in terms of equality, rights, consequences, accountability. It’s totally retro, and embarrassingly so. Someone needs to call them out on this.

I.m.o. this needs to be addressed with legislation, because this will make it more public by that fact alone. Women are not having their privacy protected: They’re totally protecting male privacy! And that’s what men know deep inside, and feel quietly grateful for. The sperm donor is the only one with completely protected privacy in this equation. What phony “women’s liberation”! :rolleyes: Yeah, what me need is even more male liberation to do as they please without accountability. They didn’t have enough sexual liberation previously. :rolleyes:
 
Elizabeth502 - my friend had an abortion in October and never even bothered to tell the guy - that she is still dating and sleeping with - that she was pregnant or that she aborted his baby. This guy has 3 other children by 3 other women because he is Pro-Life and refused to allow them to have abortions. He has since walked away from these women and his children. He is a registered “Dead beat dad” with the state of Maryland.

My friend and I have not spoken since. She knows that I am Pro-Life and that at the very least I feel he had the right to know. I feel that if she was not willing to have this man’s child then she has no business being in a relationship with him.

She knows that I will be here for her once he is gone, but that until she gets rid of him, I can no longer be a part of her life. He is abusive, violent, unemployed - and has been for over a year. He refuses to work because then all of his ex’s will garnish his wages for past child support. I looked him up on the public record system at the courthouse and the number of charges against him was staggering. This is a man I can not in good conscience allow to be in any part of my life.

That being said - I agree with you. This is their child too, and I feel that they should have a say in whether the child can be aborted. If they are willing to step up and raise the child, I do not think that the woman should be allowed to abort that child.
 
and Elizabeth -as to the man footing the bill…most insurance companies cover abortion, so it is really just a matter of a $10 or $20 co-pay.
 
In case anyone’s interested, here are the latest responses.

From the vice principal of my former Catholic Highschool – who, happily ended up as my excellent college English prof.
Carol: As your long ago teacher I stick my toe in this debate with some fear. I am in favor of PP not receiving any tax dollars. But I am also in favor of cutting tax dollars to a good many other social type agencies… As to abortion I do not feel that I have been designated by my God to decide any young woman’s life. Most lives have some dark secrets. As a teacher and now nearly 80 yrs I have known of too many of these, and I can understand why a young woman might choose to end of pregnancy.

And from a relative of mine who got this one in before I could respond to my beloved prof.
It is just so hard to figure out. Is it a person or not? Maybe it is a Volkswagon. Could it be a baby inside there.? Whose choice is it ? The baby sure chose to live . Go to any neonatal unit in any major hospital and one would find the equipment to invasively or passively determine if it is a baby inside the pregnant person or if it might be a tumor maybe. I certainly would never advocate for any womans life but how about the baby?
 
Thank you “Johnny” for drawing the “line” so clearly. You have expressed the main point of impasse. Having two beautiful, young children who were both born 3 months pre-mature certainly emphasizes the sanctity of life to you every moment of every day. So few people have this kind of grace so avidly present in our lives, that it is easy for the rhetoric of “the world” to creep in. We need to hear from people like you as often as possible. My husband said he feels ineffective speaking up as a man, because he is instantly labeled “misogynist” and ignored. Wisdom, regardless of source, should never be ignored.

Sorry to be slow in getting back to you Dr. “Jones”, I know you are coming from the double stronghold of love and knowledge. You have a both a deep concern and love for the young ladies whom you have been privileged to mentor; you can not judge them. Additionally, you have had access to knowledge that most of us in our comfortable houses with our stable families can’t begin to imagine. For this reason, and out of the deep respect I have for you, I chose to “sleep on it”. … There is more coming; this is just a prelude.
 
Dr. “Jones”, it occurs to me that I promised you a small accounting of my life since I last saw you at XYZ College. I apologize for being remiss, but there are no small sections of it which I don’t really care to relive. Suffice it to say, I have a keen appreciation for my many and varied misfortunes as they have given me a firm awareness of perseverance through adversity. One such period, lasted about two years. I was homeless, living out of my car; which was lost through misfortune and intermittently living on acquaintances couches or in hotels and the like. This is not stated to garner sympathy, it is simply made to be understood that I do have a keen knowledge of the harsh realities of life on the streets and the ravines that some of us are forced to climb out of. I thank God for your influence in my life, because it was you that planted the seed of self-confidence; self-knowledge in my mind that grew and took hold.

Back to the matter at hand, however, it seems to me the reason that we are struggling so much with this issue is due to its complexity. Thank you, Dr. “Jones”. It means a lot to me that you have such faith in my intellect to point out the merits of one’s empathy on this level. There is a two part response to be made to this argument. The first part speaks to the sanctity of life; the second addresses the true benefits and dangers to the mother of which we (the general public) have not been made aware.

It is human nature to suspend disbelief of the improbable when we have something undeniable to cling to within our grasp. You were the first person ever to give me the glorious gem of knowledge about this term we call “a priori”. For some, that a priori icon is the knowledge that children are being slaughtered. They are. Just look at the recent case that was made public of the abortion “doctor” in Philadelphia. ( abcnews.go.com/US/alleged-victim-calls-philadelphia-abortion-doctor-kermit-gosnell/story?id=12731387 ). Children were born alive and deliberately killed. There are stories of abortion survivors as well.( abortionfacts.com/survivors/giannajessen.asp ). Not one person on either side of this argument denies that once a child is outside the womb and living and breathing on its own, it can claim the status of being a “living human”; but let’s look a little deeper.

…
 
…
Some few of us have the blessing of having experienced carrying a life inside our bodies. The first pregnancy was so foreign and alien to me it was frightening. I had nightmares derived from visions of the movie “Alien” even as I grew sicker and sicker. It didn’t help a bit that the sonogram tech was so awful, my baby looked just like a squid in the pictures. (I kid you not – we called him “squiddy” through most of the pregnancy). My husband claims there is a hormone called “forgettin’” because if people remembered what pregnancy and childbirth were like they would never go through it again. It’s true, once that “alien” made his grand appearance and snuggled right down on my tummy, all that had been bad was turned to good a million times over. I learned what true joy was from that one moment of clarity. It was and continues to be the most magnificent grace of God that we were allowed to share in His work as creators of life. Unfortunately this sort of thing is completely subjective and adds little clarification overall to the collective knowledge.

With the second pregnancy, it was completely different. I felt nothing but love and warmth radiating from the little one from the start. I was still astoundingly sick and completely convinced that, while most women may be designed for doing the work of having babies, I clearly was not and it was nothing short of miraculous that I was able to carry them to term. Again subjective; and though completely adding to my overall wisdom; still, little to no help from an objective perspective in the on-going debate of when life begins.

No, it was an agnostic, biologist friend of mine that made the case for me. My third pregnancy was a complete disaster from beginning to end. What the doctors and even my ignorant priest said was “never meant to be”. I bled from the very beginning and found out that the baby had implanted inside my ovary. It grew for 8 weeks and died. No one in this world or the next can tell me that his life had no meaning. Enter my biologist friend. When trying to logically piece together the feelings of loss that I felt that I was repeated told I was not supposed to feel; he explained to me something that no one had bothered to do before. You see, our bodies have this amazing system of automatically creating and reusing the basic components of life: egg and sperm. Just like an assembly line in a factory, in a woman’s body, the egg is produced, does not get fertilized, is reconstituted into her body (I simplify). The sperm mindlessly function in the single purpose of seeking out that egg and fertilizing. These too are reconstituted or ejected from the body. Simple , basic, stimulus-response type stuff with tiny components of our own body. No tears are shed when simple functions cells of our body carry out the functions they are supposed to and die.

Here’s where everything changes. On that most rare of occasions, the sperm achieves its goal and successfully fertilizes the egg, something completely different happens. The assembly line gets left behind. The DNA combines and a completely new life is formed. That is, it undergoes metabolism, maintains homeostasis, possess a capacity to grow, responds to stimuli, reproduces and, adapts to its environment in successive generations. If not human life, then it begs the question what kind of life. But we know that we are talking about human life here. The new life then actively and consciously goes and seeks out the wall to the uterus which can be quite a journey. It then actively does what is necessary to remain alive: it actively and consciously attaches to the wall of the uterus and makes itself right at home which is, of course where it is. Now how can we claim consciousness? Why not attach to the wall of the fallopian tube which does happen often, or in my case the ovary. It could do that. But it doesn’t, it seeks out and finds something better on its own, my will or body are completely separate from it at this point. Question of consciousness aside, we can ask, how is the different for the sperm? Simple. The sperm has one purpose: to find an egg. They either achieve that goal or not but they simply lack the basic components of life (see above). They are clearly automatons, nothing more; whereas the newly created zygote takes it upon itself to find that which it needs to live optimally and takes the necessary action to do so independently. It then makes itself dependant on its mother for the next 18 years or so, but just the same, we as adults are dependent on our food sources. Does a farmer in Wisconsin lack life because he does not have fish to eat? Moreover, does an Inuit man lack life because he can not live on corn in his environment? Just so, the zygote consumes what it has available and it grows and it metabolizes and it maintains homeostasis and one day it will reproduce and select for its procreative mate someone who helps it have healthier children and so on.

It’s hard to say what happened with my little guy. I had two very competent, experienced OBs working with me. In the end, I hemorrhaged for over two months after the baby died and, except for twice on sonogram, the baby was never seen again. I saw his little body though, so I know him.

In light of these facts, it was my near-atheist, agnostic, biologist friend, not my priest, that gave me permission to mourn my little one. My baby wasn’t just something that “was never meant to be”, he was, without a doubt: a life; an unequivocally human life that maybe only I had intimate knowledge of; but still a life that had passed, nonetheless.

And so I conclude the first part of my promised two part argument. The second part speaks much more aptly to the heart of your argument, Dr. “Jones”. Please be patient, I am juggling kids while typing and so, find it hard to be quick about my responses. So more to come … directly…
 
Maureen, I think your post 14 entirely misses my point. I also think the man you describe as “pro-life” is not a man, with his history, I myself would describe as pro-life, although apparently he is/was pro-birth. He doesn’t earn a lot of points in my book.

A very large number of abortion seekers do not have insurance at all, particularly the younger among them, so I don’t really care about the so-called “co-pay.” Again, this misses the point. It’s his baby for life; his decision for life, every bit as much as hers. Unless she was raped, she gave consent to sex with him, irresponsibly – since the vast majority (between 80 and 95%) of U.S. abortions are to unmarried women, any given year.

Bring it out of the shadows for a guy, and men will start behaving differently. Most especially they will behave differently if the men themselves are married and/or in some ‘sensitive’ role or position or visibility, and their paterntiy becomes in the least bit public.
 
I am glad you are openly pro-life on your FB page! I am also, in my Info I list 100% Pro-life. Any of my friends who would like to debate me…are welcome to unfriend me! I don’t have time nor energy to try and change their minds, but maybe your friends can still think. I find that pro-aborts have closed their minds to new facts a long, long time ago.

I save my energy for when I go down to PP to pray. The evil that emanates from that building is almost more than I can stand.

:mad:
 
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