People: Inherently good or Inherently evil?

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If you don’t mind, I’ll play devils advocate. I will propose that people are born evil, but corrupted by good. :mad: How about that one? 😃
 
Bob_Rowland said:
Because of the sin of Adam, people are indeed inherently evil. That is why everyone must believe and be baptized. But Baptism does not relief the temptations caused our basic flawed nature. That is why the Sacrament of Penance was instituted.

Someone who prayed to be relieved of temptation asked Mother Angelica why after he prayed for three hours his temptations became threefold. She responded that without temptation, we would not be able to overcome it to gain God’s blessing. She told him that if he was given three times as much temptatation, then he had three times more opportunity to please God. Her reasoning and wisdom are unassailable.
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Somehow the word EVIL nature doesn’t strike me as being a perfect description of the human condition before Baptism. The devil is known as the EVIL one because he is far from God and has no chance of redemption. We still have a chance to be redeemed. There are probably many unbaptized people who do good. They are not evil, but human nature is fallen, whether baptized, or not. If I remember old stories from my childhood (maybe I don’t, correctly anyway), when we were first created by God, we were without sin and were the loves of HIS being. A bit above the angels??? Then Lucifer became jealous of this and this is a reason he revolted against God and His faithful angels?? Of course now we are a little less than the angels, but I don’t think our nature is evil unless we give ourselves over to evil. 🙂 Peace.
 
Man is not basically evil. This is a misconception arising from Calvinism’s statement of “total depravity.”

IS MAN BASICALLY EVIL?

WHERE THE BIBLE SAYS NO:

Gen 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

Gen 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.

Gen 6:9
These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God.

Job 1:8
And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”

Jer 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Proverbs 11:4-5
Riches do not profit in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from death. The righteousness of the blameless keeps his way straight, but the wicked falls by his own wickedness.

Proverbs 12:2
A good man obtains favor from the Lord, but a man of evil devices he condemns.

Proverbs 12:5
The thoughts of the righteous are just; the counsels of the wicked are treacherous.

Matt 12:35
The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. (Also see Luke 6:45)

Luke 1:6 (ref. to Zacahariah & Elizabeth)
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Luke 23:50
Now there was a man named Joseph from the Jewish town of Arimathea. He was a member of the council, a good and righteous man,

Mark 6:20
for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man,

Acts 7:20
At this time Moses was born, and was beautiful before God.

Acts 11:24 (ref. to Barnabas)
for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith.

1 Tim 4:4
For everything created by God is good,

WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT MAN IS BASICALLY EVIL?

The proposition that man is basically evil is normally defended by quoting the following verses:

Romans 3:9-12
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one.”

Romans 3:22-23
For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 11:32
For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

ANALYSIS

There are no quotes in the bible stating that man is basically evil. There are, however, numerous passages that point out the sinfulness and weakness of man, but none of them even implicitly states that man is basically evil. There are, however, numerous examples that demonstrate both explicitly and implicitly that man is basically good. The assumption that man is basically evil is non-biblical. Instead man is basically good but suffers from a fallen nature.

The book of Romans as quoted above is the chief source for defending the idea that man is basically evil. Such an interpretation of these verses is clearly problematic for the following reasons:
  1. In Romans 3:9-12, Paul says that all are under the power of sin. This is a reference to the “Fall” and the burden of original sin. Paul is speaking of Jews and gentiles as equal in their damaged state of inheritance, and that the Jews need grace and redemption just as much as the gentiles. All of mankind needs redemption, and man is prone to sin, but this fact does not mean that man is basically evil.
  2. In Romans 3:9-12, Paul is quoting from Psalm 14:1-5. Paul makes reference to the Psalm by saying, “as it is written,” and he would not have made that remark or quoted so much of the passage word for word, if he did not intend for us to look to the psalm in order to place his own statements within the Old Testament context. The context of Psalm 14 is made clear in the first verse which states, “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none that does good.” Then in verse four and five the psalm reads, “Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call upon the Lord? There they shall be in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.” Psalm 14 clearly distinguishes between the evil doers (i.e. the fool that says there is no God) and “my people”….”the generation of the righteous.” This is in harmony with all of the above scriptures that state that man is basically good.
  3. Romans 3:22-23 and Romans 11:32 merely reiterate what Paul speaks of in reference to Psalm 14. While these verses clearly show that men are under the burden of original sin and that men commit personal sin, they do not state either explicitly or implicitly that man is basically evil.
  4. Scripture does not contradict itself. If the Book of Romans or any other book of scripture actually indicated that man was basically evil, then those passages would “clearly” and “directly” contradict Genesis 1:26, Genesis 1:31, Psalm 139:13-15, Proverbs 12:2, Matt 12:35, Luke 1:6, Luke 23:50, Mark 6:20, Acts 7:20, and 1 Tim 4:4.
cont. on next post
 
cont. from prior post

The notion of total depravity needs correction. Since man is basically good but has a fallen nature, it would be more accurate to use the term “total inability.” This means that while man is basically good, his fallen nature prevents him without grace from being lifted out of sin, to display genuine supernatural virtues, and to please God. The proposition that man is basically evil when carried to its logical conclusion, teaches that even after a man is justified by God’s grace he remains polluted. This is simply false and goes against everything scripture says about being born again.
 
Tim_Kirchoff said:
Interesting, but I was hoping for more disucssion than that.😉

What will man do, if left to his own devices?
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Man were left to their own Devices for a long time. When people were Nomadic, not much is really known of their behaviour. There were different communities, some patriachal, some matriachal.

There are many people out there, who do not believe, and live very decent lives.There are many people who do believe, and live hideous lives.

And there’s everything in between.

In my view, humankind has only ever been doing things on our own.

So if you want an answer to that, you only need to look around. Some of it is good, and some of it is bad, but regardless of where the world is at right now…This world we live in is, humans, left to their own devices.

We’ve alway’s had free will 🙂

I suspect your question however, may be more related to, what if no-one believed in a higher power? Is that what you might be driving at?
 
Dameedna said:
Man were left to their own Devices for a long time. When people were Nomadic, not much is really known of their behaviour. There were different communities, some patriachal, some matriachal.

There are many people out there, who do not believe, and live very decent lives.There are many people who do believe, and live hideous lives.

And there’s everything in between.

In my view, humankind has only ever been doing things on our own.

So if you want an answer to that, you only need to look around. Some of it is good, and some of it is bad, but regardless of where the world is at right now…This world we live in is, humans, left to their own devices.

We’ve alway’s had free will 🙂

I suspect your question however, may be more related to, what if no-one believed in a higher power? Is that what you might be driving at?
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Not quite, I was thinking more along the lnes of being free from the devil’s influence as well as God’s Wihout either God’s or the devil’s influence, how would man act? How good or bad would he be?
 

Jesus calls his hearers evil:​

  • Matthew 7:11
    If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
    Matthew 7:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
  • Luke 11:13
    If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
    Luke 11:12-14 (in Context) Luke 11 (Whole Chapter)
    **IMHO it is much much safer to avoid treating man as inherently good, because in actuality man has all too often shown himself to be a devil incarnate - & still does. Doctrines which glorify man never seem to take sin with sufficient seriousness - but if we underestimate the enormity of sin, how can we have a right appreciation of what has been done for us in Christ ? Talk of the inherent goodness of man does not take account of the gigantic numbers slaughtered by the all too human tyrants of this century, or of the roots in us of the same ability to do gigantic harm. **
**A notion of man that emphasises his desperate wickedness & universal corruption (for the entirety of man has been dealt a deadly blow - the whole of him is sick) is a doctrine that should help to protect those who believe it against putting trust in the split & broken reed that is man - those who overlook the poison in this viper’s fangs, by contrast, are in serious danger of being bitten by it. It is God, alone, Who is Good - the gospel says nothing about man (!) being good. Man is evil, not good - that is why he needs salvation from sin, & why he is certain to die in his sins and be damned without a Saviour. **
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

Jesus calls his hearers evil:​

  • Matthew 7:11
    If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
    Matthew 7:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
  • Luke 11:13
    If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
    Luke 11:12-14 (in Context) Luke 11 (Whole Chapter)
    **IMHO it is much much safer to avoid treating man as inherently good, because in actuality man has all too often shown himself to be a devil incarnate - & still does. Doctrines which glorify man never seem to take sin with sufficient seriousness - but if we underestimate the enormity of sin, how can we have a right appreciation of what has been done for us in Christ ? Talk of the inherent goodness of man does not take account of the gigantic numbers slaughtered by the all too human tyrants of this century, or of the roots in us of the same ability to do gigantic harm. **
A notion of man that emphasises his desperate wickedness & universal corruption (for the entirety of man has been dealt a deadly blow - the whole of him is sick) is a doctrine that should help to protect those who believe it against putting trust in the split & broken reed that is man - those who overlook the poison in this viper’s fangs, by contrast, are in serious danger of being bitten by it. It is God, alone, Who is Good - the gospel says nothing about man (!) being good. Man is evil, not good - that is why he needs salvation from sin, & why he is certain to die in his sins and be damned without a Saviour.
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The concept of man as inherently evil is one that ultimately turns Christian morality on its head. If man is inherently evil, that is, evil as a constitutional fact of his created identity, then logically, you must deny the Resurrection since, in that case, man would not be worth saving. To hold to the inherent evil of man is to embrace a pagan ethic, not a Christian one.
 
Would God create something intrinsically evil?

Many Protestants believe that man is, by nature sinful. This is absurd. Did not God see that “it was good”?

Man’s concupiscence rises from legitimate desires and pleasures. These are then convoluted, and we have sin. Thus, man is not inherently evil, rather, since God created us with desires, concupiscence blurs our vision.
 
Mystic_of_God said:
Would God create something intrinsically evil?

Many Protestants believe that man is, by nature sinful. This is absurd. Did not God see that “it was good”?

Man’s concupiscence rises from legitimate desires and pleasures. These are then convoluted, and we have sin. Thus, man is not inherently evil, rather, since God created us with desires, concupiscence blurs our vision.
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Bravo:thumbsup:

The “intrinsically evil” belief has it roots I believe in Manichaeism. God cannot create evil. Evil is the absence of good. True freedom is the ability to choose correctly without coercion. Evil is turning away from the Creator.

Peace,
DCD
 
Personally I believe that God is the best judge of our human nature. He has spoken on this issue: Rom 3:23 “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

We also see Paul explain in Romans that we are all born into sin, or “sold” into it. While God’s original creation (Adam) was created perfect, it has changed, become corrupt, and is the whole reason Jesus came to save us.

"There is none righteous, no not one…They are all gone out of the way…there is none that doeth good, no not one.

I think that pretty much sums it up.
 
Not quite. St. Teresa of the Holy Infant Jesus (if I’ve got the name accurately) led a blameless life, but said on her deathbed,“There is no way I can ultimately be perfect in the eyes of God in my lifetime.” …but she clearly meant nobody is perfect or sinless. The above quotes can be misconstrued as claiming that everyone is hopelessly and incorrigibly evil, or beyond God’s reach. Not so.
 
James_2_24 said:
I was in a discussion with a co-worker who believes people are inherently evil and I argued that people are inherently good.
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:twocents:
it looks like your co-worker is argueing for the calvinist idea of Total Depravity. and to that I would say that we are Inherently fallen, but that it does follow that we inherently evil because we are made in the image of God, and anything that is made in his image cannot be Totally Depraved (because the image of God is good). it would probably be good if you did some research into the 5 points of Calvinism because you are arguing against the 1 point.:twocents:
 
Mark_Marilyn said:
Not quite. St. Teresa of the Holy Infant Jesus (if I’ve got the name accurately) led a blameless life, but said on her deathbed,“There is no way I can ultimately be perfect in the eyes of God in my lifetime.” …but she clearly meant nobody is perfect or sinless. The above quotes can be misconstrued as claiming that everyone is hopelessly and incorrigibly evil, or beyond God’s reach. Not so.
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Actually - no one leads a blameless life. I think the confusion comes in when we fail to see that sin comes in two forms. The first form is that of an action. A person can commit a sin such as murder or adultery. The other kind of sin is the sin of condition. We are all born into (if we are to believe Paul) a condition of sin that we have no control over. This condition is the reason Christ came to die for us because we are ultimately unable to free ourselves from this state of corruption. This is why nobody is perfect or sinless.

Being “hopelessly and incorrigibly evil”, and being “beyond God’s reach” are two different issues. I believe people are basically evil in the eyes of God, and this is why His son was sacrificed for us. We cannot stand in His presence without Christ standing in between.

However, even though we are hopeless in God’s eyes, we are not “without hope”, because He has made provision for us through His Son Jesus Christ.

It’s pretty simple really.
 
Corey_Santos said:
Actually - no one leads a blameless life. I think the confusion comes in when we fail to see that sin comes in two forms. The first form is that of an action. A person can commit a sin such as murder or adultery. The other kind of sin is the sin of condition. We are all born into (if we are to believe Paul) a condition of sin that we have no control over. This condition is the reason Christ came to die for us because we are ultimately unable to free ourselves from this state of corruption. This is why nobody is perfect or sinless.

Being “hopelessly and incorrigibly evil”, and being “beyond God’s reach” are two different issues. I believe people are basically evil in the eyes of God, and this is why His son was sacrificed for us. We cannot stand in His presence without Christ standing in between.

However, even though we are hopeless in God’s eyes, we are not “without hope”, because He has made provision for us through His Son Jesus Christ.

It’s pretty simple really.
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I have to disagree…simply because what you are saying essentially is saying that God, the creator of ALL life, creates us to be evil. That He actually creates evil…which He, who is complete Truth, complete Love and complete Mercy, is totally incapable of doing.

God has no part of sin…it is why Christ yelled out while on the Cross, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me”…because at that moment, God had to leave Christ to fall to sin…and He, God, could not be present, as He is complete Truth and unable to commit sin or be near it.

As such, God would not create us to be sinful creatures…He created for Himself…so that we will come to love, honor and worship Him forever…He would then, not desire nor design us to be “evil” in anyway! We choose to be evil…all on our own!

Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat
 
JTBT said:
:twocents:
it looks like your co-worker is argueing for the calvinist idea of Total Depravity. and to that I would say that we are Inherently fallen, but that it does follow that we inherently evil because we are made in the image of God, and anything that is made in his image cannot be Totally Depraved (because the image of God is good). it would probably be good if you did some research into the 5 points of Calvinism because you are arguing against the 1 point.:twocents:
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It is not true that what ever God makes is good, because God Himself said, after he had created Adam, that it was “not good” that Adam be alone. This makes my point. After Adam was created, but before Eve came along, a “condition” existed that was “not good”. That condition was the condition of being alone that Adam suffered.

In the same way, we are born into another condition that is “not good” the condition of sin. If it were good in any way, there would have been no need for Christ to sacrifice Himself for us, because it would have just been a matter of embracing the Holy Spirit to empower us to “be good” for God.

No; the claim that people are inherently good because God originally created us in His image fails to take into account that we no longer live in the Garden, but in a sinful world. That is why the Bible calls a spade a spade and notes (as I pointed out above) that no one is good.
 
neat62 said:
I have to disagree…simply because what you are saying essentially is saying that God, the creator of ALL life, creates us to be evil. That He actually creates evil…which He, who is complete Truth, complete Love and complete Mercy, is totally incapable of doing.

God has no part of sin…it is why Christ yelled out while on the Cross, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me”…because at that moment, God had to leave Christ to fall to sin…and He, God, could not be present, as He is complete Truth and unable to commit sin or be near it.

As such, God would not create us to be sinful creatures…He created for Himself…so that we will come to love, honor and worship Him forever…He would then, not desire nor design us to be “evil” in anyway! We choose to be evil…all on our own!

Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat
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No - Evil is not a “thing” to be created. Evil is the absence of good. It’s the separation of man from God. In the absence of God, we find evil. Evil is not created by God, but by man in the sense that when man made a free moral choice to disobey God, he created a condition of separation from God, and in this we find evil. Paul said the world and everything in it is in separation from God, and therefore is inherently evil. We fight everyday to please God, struggling against what we know we should do, and what we are really doing. If we were basically good, then the task would be a lot easier, and might even be something we could achieve on our own, but we can’t. This is why God sent His Son, to take on the sins and sinful nature that you and I have no power to free ourselves from.

You’re correct when you say God doesn’t create evil. You’re also correct when you say He didn’t create us to be evil. We chose to come to know what evil is, and that is far different than God “creating” evil. It’s the fact that God cannot be in the presence of sin that we need Christ to stand in the gap for our trespasses against God.
 
Corey_Santos said:
It is not true that what ever God makes is good, because God Himself said, after he had created Adam, that it was “not good” that Adam be alone. This makes my point. After Adam was created, but before Eve came along, a “condition” existed that was “not good”. That condition was the condition of being alone that Adam suffered.

In the same way, we are born into another condition that is “not good” the condition of sin. If it were good in any way, there would have been no need for Christ to sacrifice Himself for us, because it would have just been a matter of embracing the Holy Spirit to empower us to “be good” for God.

No; the claim that people are inherently good because God originally created us in His image fails to take into account that we no longer live in the Garden, but in a sinful world. That is why the Bible calls a spade a spade and notes (as I pointed out above) that no one is good.
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I did not say that everyone is good I said that we are all Inherently fallen, but I do not agree that we are Inherently evil.
 
Not to be a Calvinist or anything here, because I’m not, but Calvin never taught Total Depravity. That doctrine of Protestant Faith was concocted after his death in reply to the followers of Arminius during the Remonstrance.

Calvin affirmed what St. Augustine taught that man is helpless because of his sin nature. It is not that man can do no good, such an idea is ridiculous, it is that man cannot save himself. The notion of total depravity is flawed because no one is totally depraved, even Hitler had a dog who liked him. No one is as bad as they can possibly all the time every time. Well, no one human anyway.
 
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