People Misusing Reconciliation

[dshix]

That referred to a particular confession incident.

Ok…

Well, I still disagree with you. However, for the sake of the argument I will go along with what you are saying.

Even though the OP may have had that reference to an individual confession (which I still disagree with) the rest of the thread does not. There may be a post or two in there that suggests talking about an individual confession, but the vast majority of the thread is mainly talking in general.

 

[Edmundus1581]

…
The conversation never DID come around to talking about a “particular confession.” The topic of this whole thread is about confession in general.
…

I agree. The OP’s starting point was that for three weekends in a row only one or two people received confession in a whole hour. For him/her, arriving ten minutes early and then waiting for a whole hour during one confession and then being turned away for the third time, was clearly and understandably frustrating and the cause of some questioning.

Perhaps he made some **slightly **injudicious remarks on these confessions, but that was not the main point.

This overall situation presented by the OP is extremely unusual and sufficient to invite some informed discussion on common abuses of the confessional time, and advice on how to address this, which is clearly not directed at any particular one of those confessions. There is even a remote chance that in all of these three weeks there was no abuse of confession time - but that chance is extremely remote. Half hour confessions are very rare, and, AFAIK, no one here has yet admitted a case of longer than half an hour (during a publicly scheduled confession time)

We take it for granted that none of us (since post #1) is offering any opinion on a particular confession which we have only experienced from outside.

Again, what is your evidence that long periods in the confessional manifest these supposed faults among penitents?

Precisely how are you “sure?” A radio show is not the confessional.

Again, you have no evidence that penitents are not doing that ^. …

“Again,”?

As above, I presented this as informed opinion of common abuses of confession time, without asserting that it applies in any particular case which I have only heard from the outside. In the OP’s three week scenario I think it highly likely that there has been some abuse of confession time, but I cannot be certain.

Also, you elided my post in a way which made a published comment on another incident, which I quoted, appear to be my direct comments on the OP’s actual experience. I trust this was innocent - however I will not attempt to support my post in that context.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Are you saying that you take a really long time in the Confessional?

I’m saying several things:

(1) that “a really long time” is a subjective judgment, based on the bias of the person making that judgment. To some people, “a really long time” is directly propertional to their own arbitrary & personal timeline. To other people, they are grateful for the opportunity to confess and don’t count the minutes.

(2) that ordained confessors with seminary training in the sacraments are better judges as to the appropriate length of any particular confession in which they are present, than are discussion forum members.

(3) that “a really long time” --whether that’s 5 minutes or 55 minutes – may be a sacramentally necessary measurement of time, and that there is no way for anyone outside of the confessional box to know what is or is not an appropriate amount of time.

(4) that a subjectively judged “long time” is not necessarily filled by “emotional issues.”

(5) that it is not my privilege to judge the contents of anyone else’s confidential confession, nor the privilege of anyone else.

(6) that several priests have told me that they hate “lists of sins” without an understanding of more than that on the part of penitents, and that they welcome an opportunity to have a brief conversation with a penitent about their spiritual needs, related to the sacrament. In any case, that would certainly explain how a priest, who is in charge of the time factor, would allow some penitents to expand the time according to what the priest perceives, not what random parishioners perceive, is an appropriate need.

Here’s the bottom line in my own case.

I have more than once been in a long confession line, as I said earlier – sometimes a short line, sometimes a long line. There have been times when I assumed it would take X amount of time for me to finish, so that I could go do Y. Those best laid plans have often been short-circuited. Each time I have understood I have only myself to blame:

(a) the fact that I assumed any amount of time was my problem, not anyone else’s.
(b) my initial annoyance was soon corrected by my realization of who brought me here: myself. I could have avoided the wait entirely by (i) not committing those sins; (ii) participating more often in the sacrament; (iii) coming very early, as an aspect of that commitment and to prevent “long” waits.

The fact of the matter is that the Actual Grace which brings us to the sacrament in the first place should provide us with – if we’re open to that grace --a willingness to submit to the arc of the whole experience, including the wait. God waited for us to return to this sacrament; experiencing a wait ourselves is part of the learning and part of the grace. It is, as I and others have said, part of the “before” penance, which is spiritually therapeutic, and which we should embrace if we are confronted with it.

 

[silicasandra]

I once went to confession (after resolving to go more frequently) and decided that I would be as brief as possible. I had tended, out of nervousness, to be a rambler in past confessions. I went behind the screen, but the priest seemed to (I am not certain, of course) be concerned with how “short” my confession was. I tried to be “businesslike” but he ended up asking me several additional questions that took up much more time, and afterwards made a comment to the effect of, “Well I guess you’re actually sorry for these things.”

Um, yeah, that’s kinda why I’m here. And I DID say that I was sorry, Father.

(Didn’t say these words to him, but I was honestly surprised that he expressed reservation about my contrition. I did not know him, and it was true that it was the first time I managed to not cry in the confessional, but…still.)

I am trying to strike a happy medium with providing enough circumstance but not too much, but it is difficult, and different priests seem to have different expectations (and I cannot always go at the same time or at the same parish).

I guess the point of my post is that it’s not always the penitent that makes it go long. On several occasions I’ve been to the posted confession times at my parish and it has been a visiting priest there instead of one of ours, and although there’s a place for them to put their names they don’t always do so, so it’s not clear who you’re “getting” until you’re already in there.

 

[JimG]

I once went to confession (after resolving to go more frequently) and decided that I would be as brief as possible. I had tended, out of nervousness, to be a rambler in past confessions. I went behind the screen, but the priest seemed to (I am not certain, of course) be concerned with how “short” my confession was. I tried to be “businesslike” but he ended up asking me several additional questions that took up much more time, and afterwards made a comment to the effect of, “Well I guess you’re actually sorry for these things.”

Um, yeah, that’s kinda why I’m here. And I DID say that I was sorry, Father.

(Didn’t say these words to him, but I was honestly surprised that he expressed reservation about my contrition. I did not know him, and it was true that it was the first time I managed to not cry in the confessional, but…still.)

I am trying to strike a happy medium with providing enough circumstance but not too much, but it is difficult, and different priests seem to have different expectations (and I cannot always go at the same time or at the same parish).

I guess the point of my post is that it’s not always the penitent that makes it go long. On several occasions I’ve been to the posted confession times at my parish and it has been a visiting priest there instead of one of ours, and although there’s a place for them to put their names they don’t always do so, so it’s not clear who you’re “getting” until you’re already in there.

That’s an unusual story. I recall a priest once telling a group that of course he knows we are sorry for our sins–that’s why we’re in the confessional! Then he went on to give advice which amounted to: be blunt, be brief, and be gone. Well, I guess you just have to go with the flow.

 

[babochka]

I have noticed a great many people on this board who are adamant that confession is not the place for spiritual direction. I have to differ with those people, and I’d like to point out that many saints, and perhaps even the church herself, also takes a different perspective.

A couple of years ago, the Vatican published a document for priests on confession and spiritual direction. Although Confession and spiritual direction are treated separately in the document, it is clear throughout the document that the two are closely linked. clerus.org/clerus/dati/2011-05/20-13/Sussidio_per_Confessori_en.pdf

Here is an excerpt:

1. In many dioceses, and especially in minor basilicas, in cathedrals,
   in sanctuaries and in large urban parishes, the faithful have responded
   positively to the efforts of pastors to provide opportunities
   to approach the Sacrament of Penance. Since “through the Sacrament
   of Penance (the ministers) reconcile sinners with God and with the
   Church”,14 this penitential celebration can also provide an opportunity
   for spiritual direction or counsel.

St. Alphonsus Ligouri also considered Confession a time for giving counsel to sinners.

After imploring confessors to take time to instruct and encourage the penitent he states, “But some will say, ‘If we treat sinners in this manner a great deal of our time will be taken up, and others who are waiting cannot be heard.’ But in answer I say, that it is better to hear one confession well than to hear a great number imperfectly. But the most appropriate answer is, that the confessor has not to give an account to God of the persons who are waiting, but only of the person whose confession he has begun to hear.” (from Selva, or The Dignity and Duties of the Priest) St. Alphonsus sees spiritual direction as integral to the work of the confessor (see, especially the final chapter of his Pratica del Confessore).

I occasionally attend Opus Dei recollections. Spiritual Direction is also an integral part of confession for the priests of Opus Dei.

For my own part, I had a 25 minute confession yesterday. Normally, there is not time for that, as our small parish’s only scheduled confession time is directly before the Sunday Divine Liturgy. The 25 minute confession was a luxury and I greatly appreciated the time that Father took. We usually have a line for confession, but Father always take the time to give appropriate spiritual counsel and I never feel rushed. Sometimes he doesn’t get to everyone. Sometimes, he’ll start the liturgy a few minutes late, and sometimes he offers to those waiting to hear their confessions after the Liturgy. He is accommodating, and so are we.

If it is a regular occurrence that there are more penitents than scheduled confession times, then praise God! Time to scheduled additional confession times.

 

[Elizabeth502]

babochka,

Thank you from the bottom of my heart. It’s distressing to see some modern interpretations of spirituality, which in some ways are short-sighted. God is not on our “schedule.” Aside from all the cute commercials about CAF and EWTN and various prayer apps, God is not a computer application. We can’t “Command” confession.

God is both instant on the one hand, and timeless on the other. And when we’re called to confess, we’re on God’s Real Time, not on Google’s or any worldly calendar. We’re called to be present to the full immediacy of available graces, wherever, however, and however long those take, for us and for others. Sometimes that will mean going back to that line more than once, or rearranging our own non-eternal schedule to align with God’s, rather than vice-versa. Again, when I have had to do that myself (often!), I know that God is teaching me many things by that and giving me many opportunities to reflect. Also, I can be “slow” when it comes to an Examen. The more I have to come back to the line before confessing, the deeper my Examen becomes. (Hmm: I guess God had a plan in allowing that to happen. )

I was going to bring up the history of the saints when it comes to spiritual direction in the confessional, and I’m so glad that you beat me to it. Always love meeting another informed Catholic on this forum.

Throughout this thread, while reading comments and considering my own, I have been continually reminded of the High Holy Days in Judaism. Jews who are serious about these basically stop doing anything else during that period, especially on the days of obesrvance themselves. Time just stops. Yom Kippur can typically take hours, and does include a comprehensive examination of conscience, in some detail, and an acknowledgment, in community, of those failings. In any case, families are just accustomed to allotting unlimited time for Temple observance and hours of waiting. Sometimes the children complain a little, but overall they are grateful for it. I have never heard an observant Jew complain about the waits and the length of time, and I mean modern, busy Jews with professional obligations. Catholics have something to learn from their Jewish brethren.

 

[babochka]

babochka,

Thank you from the bottom of my heart. It’s distressing to see some modern interpretations of spirituality, which in some ways are short-sighted. God is not on our “schedule.”

And thank you for speaking first! It can get lonely here, being the only dissenting voice.

Another thing I wanted to mention that others, including you, have touched upon: Who are we to judge what is going on in the confessional? That is for the priest to deal with. If the priest feels that the person is taking too much time giving unnecessary details, let him help that person in making a more succinct confession. We should praise God that there is a repentant sinner who has come to confession for healing and forgiveness, and trust that the priest is dealing with that person as a physician of souls.

I’ve also been in the confessional with very chatty priests. Once, about a week before my wedding, my fiance and I went to confession together. The priest took forever, chatting about a variety of topics. I think the confession must have lasted 40 minutes. We talked about my profession. (I was a social worker and he was just finishing up his MSW degree.) We talked about the neighborhood and the news. I didn’t instigate any of this conversation, he just seemed chatty. What my fiance must have thought… until he went in. The priest took just as long with his. It was kind of awkward, but how does one get out of that situation gracefully? Well, you don’t. You accept it with grace and good humor, assume the best of the priest, and move on, perhaps making a mental note to avoid that priest in the future.

It is a good idea, I would think, for a person to let the priest know if the confessions of those waiting are regularly not heard. How else is he to know that he needs to schedule more times for confession?

 

[Elizabeth502]

One thing I wanted to qualify, among my own comments.

While we can’t “Command” confession as on a computerized device, I do recognize that we must have confession readily available. Nevertheless, both the variable availability of priests and the unwillingness of many pastors to extend confession times means that some penitents will have to travel to other parishes & locate other opportunities. Again, this has happened to me, as well. There have been occasions in which I didn’t want to wait a full week, etc., so I sought alternatives.

Now, if there is no anonymous confession opportunity available within reasonable distance, a penitent has the choice of making an appointment with a priest, thus foregoing the anonymity.

If I was dealing with a persistent mortal sin (if I were), such that I believed that “instant” confession was essential to the health of my soul, and I could not count on my local parish providing that instant availability (including after notifying the pastor of the problem), I would --seriously-- move to be more local to a parish with lots of confession opportunities.

Really, it is NOT up to any priest or any penitent to make confession more instantly available to me (or to any of us) in the precise parish that is most convenient to me.

Not long ago (within the last year), I lost my fabulous confessor because he was transferred. It really killed me, and it’s been a difficult adjustment. Not only that, he was especially convenient, geographically. Too bad for me. That’s life. I’ve had to seek out other confessors, and God has seen to it during that search that I have found the confessors that I need, not those that I want. It’s not the end of the world when we don’t have everything exactly as we expect in our First World life.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I have noticed a great many people on this board who are adamant that confession is not the place for spiritual direction. I have to differ with those people, and I’d like to point out that many saints, and perhaps even the church herself, also takes a different perspective.

I have read that also, and agree!

This is excellent: Is confession a time for spiritual direction?

Since I first read Jimmy Akin’s advice* on how to avoid long confessions, which I quoted earlier, and have put it into practice, I have not had any less opportunity for spiritual direction, but rather more, because I can both ask my confessor directly about matter on which I need advise, or give him more space to probe on a particular issue. I confess weekly, and, perhaps, once a month I request or receive advice. Because my confessions are better organised I can choose whether to ask my question a particular confession, or keep it for a better time.

Just repeating - I never assume anything about any particular confession which has caused me to wait (other than that a fellow sinner has been absolved!), and, like Elizabeth502, I accept waiting as part of the penitential process. There may be a time in my life where I need, or have imposed upon me, a one hour confession. However, if I ever **foresaw ** that it would last more than 15 minutes, I would try not to interfere with other penitents, ie. I would make an appointment, or turn up in a confession hour which is normally quiet.

Despite this, I think the best maxim for regular penitents is “Be brief, be brutal, be gone”.

*Akin’s advice is in three parts and all three are important, despite the part which has been more controversial. To these we can add other suggestions in this thread such as confessing mortal sins first and not confessing many venial sins. I don’t recall if it has been mentioned, but I would also add - spend sufficient time in preparation that you know what you intend to confess and any specific questions you might have.

 

[babochka]

I have read that also, and agree!

This is excellent: Is confession a time for spiritual direction?

Since I first read Jimmy Akin’s advice* on how to avoid long confessions, which I quoted earlier, and have put it into practice, I have not had any less opportunity for spiritual direction, but rather more, because I can both ask my confessor directly about matter on which I need advise, or give him more space to probe on a particular issue. I confess weekly, and, perhaps, once a month I request or receive advice. Because my confessions are better organised I can choose whether to ask my question a particular confession, or keep it for a better time.

Just repeating - I never assume anything about any particular confession which has caused me to wait (other than that a fellow sinner has been absolved!), and, like Elizabeth502, I accept waiting as part of the penitential process. There may be a time in my life where I need, or have imposed upon me, a one hour confession. However, if I ever **foresaw ** that it would last more than 15 minutes, I would try not to interfere with other penitents, ie. I would make an appointment, or turn up in a confession hour which is normally quiet.

Despite this, I think the best maxim for regular penitents is “Be brief, be brutal, be gone”.

*Akin’s advice is in three parts and all three are important, despite the part which has been more controversial. To these we can add other suggestions in this thread such as confessing mortal sins first and not confessing many venial sins. I don’t recall if it has been mentioned, but I would also add - spend sufficient time in preparation that you know what you intend to confess and any specific questions you might have.

I cannot disagree with anything you have said.

 

[nicolakirwan]

I appreciate this thread because I’ve encountered this–being turned away from confession after it seemed that people were taking a long time. It actually made me question myself, thinking that maybe I needed to be sharing more or asking for counsel or something.

I think that providing space for everyone to have confession is important, especially given that someone might need to confess a sin that would prevent them from receiving the Eucharist. Out of courtesy for the priest’s time and that of other parishioners, if I had something I needed to really talk about, I would attempt to set up a separate appointment.

 

[MtnDwellar]

If I was a priest with this problem I would use an egg timer in the confessional * Three minutes - that’s it.

*One of the many reasons I am not a priest.

 

[Elizabeth502]

If I was a priest with this problem I would use an egg timer in the confessional * Three minutes - that’s it.

Boy, am I glad that no confessor of mine has this attitude, including toward all those ahead of me in line. They give generously, to each of us, and that’s precisely why I go to them.

In fact, no priest I have ever respected has that attitude.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Thanks to Elizabeth and babochka for a different perspective. I will have to just make an appointment in the future as I don’t have anywhere to put my kids and wait while I confess. Confession has to be done quickly or not at all unfortunately.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

If I was a priest with this problem I would use an egg timer in the confessional * Three minutes - that’s it.

*One of the many reasons I am not a priest.

You and me both. I would rather pass a kidney stone than have to sit in a confessional and listen to people recount all of their petty squabbles and masturbatory habits.

I have good friends who I’ve never exchanged more than 12 words with (we don’t even speak the same language) so talking for hours is just beyond me.

 

[babochka]

You and me both. I would rather pass a kidney stone than have to sit in a confessional and listen to people recount all of their petty squabbles and masturbatory habits.

I have good friends who I’ve never exchanged more than 12 words with (we don’t even speak the same language) so talking for hours is just beyond me.

All the more reason to be thankful for those good and holy priests who spend hours in the confessional. Think of saints who were known for hearing confessions, like Padre Pio or St. John Vianney. They would spend 10 or more hours a day hearing confessions.

 

[babochka]

Thanks to Elizabeth and babochka for a different perspective. I will have to just make an appointment in the future as I don’t have anywhere to put my kids and wait while I confess. Confession has to be done quickly or not at all unfortunately.

I certainly sympathize with this! Don’t worry, someday it won’t be so hard. I have 5 kids, ages 2-10. I’m starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. My 10 year old can watch the 2 year old, and all but the 6 year old are pretty well-behaved for a few minutes. I still leave them with my husband when I can, though, and if they’re not being watched by someone else, I don’t have long confessions. In our church, confessions are out in the open, though, so Father and I can both tell if we need to make it short because of the kids.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I would rather pass a kidney stone than have to sit in a confessional and listen to people recount all of their petty squabbles and masturbatory habits.

Thanks for your kind words elsewhere, but my friend, you assume a lot. Yes, priests have to listen to a lot of pettiness (as do psychologists, as do teachers as do parents). Parents do it out of love; so, actually, do priests who are living their vocation.

Part of the point I was driving at earlier was that priests appreciate penitents who examine their consciences deeply and bring that depth – not necessariy length, but depth – into the confessional. This is why they became priests: to counsel spiritually. Part of that counsel is in the confessional, regarding sin, temptation, efforts to resist, and efforts to harness faith in the difficult process of resisting sin. Therefore, it can’t all be funneled into “spiritual direction” because much of that direction is with regard to sin. If it’s direction about the prayer journey and not about sin or questions about sin, that direction does belong outside of the confessional, as a separate appointment. But neither you nor I have any idea if that’s what any long confession is about (long to some people being 10 minutes, long to others being 50 minues; and apparently long to some on this board being 3.5 minutes. )

Sin is not about a list, although it includes a list (“formatted,” if you will, for the confessional). God has the complete and detailed list, way better than any of us can remember, down to the moment. I cannot imagine, if I were sorry for an offense against a friend, approaching that person, and reciting a matter of fact list of my offenses against him or her. (Um, he or she knows the offenses far more keenly, having been on the receiving end!) The actual grace I would receive in the act of approaching my friend would be to acknowledge my selfish or misguided or thoughtless reasons for doing X, Y, and Z, how much I had reflected on the hurt I had caused, how pained I now am – realizing how ego-centered my actions were – to see and feel how I have hurt him or her and injured our relationship.

This has actually been done to me a couple of times in my life, and I’m sure to most others here, too. It’s the heartfelt contrition that moves us, not the blankety-blank “list.” Again, I would be insulted if that person came up to me and “gave me a list,” rattled off “quickly” so that I could get to the rest of my commitments for the day, as some “favor” to me. It’s the recognizable level of contrition and understanding which has moved me: NOT “the list”! Each time it has happened, I have instantaneously forgiven the person just by looking at the person’s face and hearing the sorrow in the voice; the content of the words themselves are almost irrelevant. My forgiveness was married with instant compassion for their own clear hurt and shame. I longed to erase all of their hurt and restore them to complete joy.

If I, fallen and insufficient as I am, can have such an automatic response, how much more abundant and instant do you think God’s response is, to us, when we tell Him how much we have thought about the effect of our sins.

Again, just my experience: Priests have told me how much they value thoughtfulness in the confessional and how little they value “lists.” A good confessor, however, will elicit thoughtfulness in a penitent, often successfully, sometimes not – just as we can’t always get our children to reflect on how they have hurt others or us. Priests are realistic about not every confession being a High Point of their priesthood.

 

[DoGodsBidding]

Thanks for your kind words elsewhere, but my friend, you assume a lot. Yes, priests have to listen to a lot of pettiness (as do psychologists, as do teachers as do parents). Parents do it out of love; so, actually, do priests who are living their vocation.

Part of the point I was driving at earlier was that priests appreciate penitents who examine their consciences deeply and bring that depth – not necessariy length, but depth – into the confessional. This is why they became priests: to counsel spiritually. Part of that counsel is in the confessional, regarding sin, temptation, efforts to resist, and efforts to harness faith in the difficult process of resisting sin. Therefore, it can’t all be funneled into “spiritual direction” because much of that direction is with regard to sin. If it’s direction about the prayer journey and not about sin or questions about sin, that direction does belong outside of the confessional, as a separate appointment. But neither you nor I have any idea if that’s what any long confession is about (long to some people being 10 minutes, long to others being 50 minues; and apparently long to some on this board being 3.5 minutes. )

Sin is not about a list, although it includes a list (“formatted,” if you will, for the confessional). God has the complete and detailed list, way better than any of us can remember, down to the moment. I cannot imagine, if I were sorry for an offense against a friend, approaching that person, and reciting a matter of fact list of my offenses against him or her. (Um, he or she knows the offenses far more keenly, having been on the receiving end!) The actual grace I would receive in the act of approaching my friend would be to acknowledge my selfish or misguided or thoughtless reasons for doing X, Y, and Z, how much I had reflected on the hurt I had caused, how pained I now am – realizing how ego-centered my actions were – to see and feel how I have hurt him or her and injured our relationship.

This has actually been done to me a couple of times in my life, and I’m sure to most others here, too. It’s the heartfelt contrition that moves us, not the blankety-blank “list.” Again, I would be insulted if that person came up to me and “gave me a list,” rattled off “quickly” so that I could get to the rest of my commitments for the day, as some “favor” to me. It’s the recognizable level of contrition and understanding which has moved me: NOT “the list”! Each time it has happened, I have instantaneously forgiven the person just by looking at the person’s face and hearing the sorrow in the voice; the content of the words themselves are almost irrelevant. My forgiveness was married with instant compassion for their own clear hurt and shame. I longed to erase all of their hurt and restore them to complete joy.

If I, fallen and insufficient as I am, can have such an automatic response, how much more abundant and instant do you think God’s response is, to us, when we tell Him how much we have thought about the effect of our sins.

Again, just my experience: Priests have told me how much they value thoughtfulness in the confessional and how little they value “lists.” A good confessor, however, will elicit thoughtfulness in a penitent, often successfully, sometimes not – just as we can’t always get our children to reflect on how they have hurt others or us. Priests are realistic about not every confession being a High Point of their priesthood.

Great comment. It is truly about what is in our hearts, and not about any list, and this extends to everything we do, each and every day. This comment has helped me to start this day with the proper attitude.

DGB