People needing more help than they realize

[royal_archer]

Today I made the mistake of watching afternoon court shows. I used to think they were actors untill a lawyer friend confirmed that those shows are indicative of people they run into in real life court cases. Then I watched the news and things didn’t get any better.

I am trying to be as sensative as possible with out ignoring the issue so here goes. I am convinced that there is a section of the population who are not capable of making rationale decisions. This results in these individuals continually making one detrimental decision after another. At what point do we say it is in these people’s best interest to appoint a guardian for them or some similar action?

I really feel sorry for these people who just don’t know better or just don’t have the capability to make better decisions. I don’t want to accuse any specific person of being in such a condition but in general what do we for people who do fit into this grouping?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Today I made the mistake of watching afternoon court shows. I used to think they were actors untill a lawyer friend confirmed that those shows are indicative of people they run into in real life court cases. Then I watched the news and things didn’t get any better.

I am trying to be as sensative as possible with out ignoring the issue so here goes. I am convinced that there is a section of the population who are not capable of making rationale decisions. This results in these individuals continually making one detrimental decision after another. At what point do we say it is in these people’s best interest to appoint a guardian for them or some similar action?

I really feel sorry for these people who just don’t know better or just don’t have the capability to make better decisions. I don’t want to accuse any specific person of being in such a condition but in general what do we for people who do fit into this grouping?

I don’t know that there really is anything anyone can do about it. Human foolishness is not new. I do think social mores and laws regulating human conduct do help. Unfortunately, there has been an erosion of both going on for some time. A person can talk to this one; perhaps give a better example to that one. But when it comes to forcing people to make better decisions, I just don’t think it can be done. Directly punishing some destructive conduct would probably help. Non-acceptance of bad conduct models would too. But the direction of society is away from that, not toward it.

But I will also say that most of those people do know right from wrong. They are, for a very large part, simply corrupt morally and do not exercise self-control.

 

[royal_archer]

I don’t know that there really is anything anyone can do about it. Human foolishness is not new. I do think social mores and laws regulating human conduct do help. Unfortunately, there has been an erosion of both going on for some time. A person can talk to this one; perhaps give a better example to that one. But when it comes to forcing people to make better decisions, I just don’t think it can be done. Directly punishing some destructive conduct would probably help. Non-acceptance of bad conduct models would too. But the direction of society is away from that, not toward it.

But I will also say that most of those people do know right from wrong. They are, for a very large part, simply corrupt morally and do not exercise self-control.

I don’t even think it is as much moral corruption as it is the lack of ability to think through their actions and the likely results. I am also not sure punative measures are appropriate since punative measures rely on people making rationale decisions after weighing options. When people don’t consider all of the options making something illegal is of little use. You can’t legislate intelegence.

 

[Harri_Laaksonen]

There is much to be desired in the way of common sense.

I think this has a lot to do with the way that people are brought up. I could not always agree with my daughter’s decisions and I still think she made some poor ones, but I could not force her to do otherwise. All I could do is remind her that there are not always punishments but there are always consequences. Some of those consequences may not be what we like.

She has turned out pretty well and I am thankful for that despite the fact that she has a lot of growing to do spiritually in her mid-20’s.

I need to remember: Trust in God, the Holy Spirit work’s in people’s lives.

 

[EasterJoy]

There are people who are in that state because someone in a caretaker role in their lives has shielded them from all the logical consequences of their actions.

The way to become responsible is to be made to take responsibility, for as long and for as many times as the lesson takes to learn. There is no way around that.

 

[Pug]

I really feel sorry for these people who just don’t know better or just don’t have the capability to make better decisions. I don’t want to accuse any specific person of being in such a condition but in general what do we for people who do fit into this grouping?

Maybe we need to learn how they arrive at the decisions that they do. This could do at least a couple of things. It might help us realize that their decisions are rational within their worldview or circumstances. Also, information like that might help us know if a certain type of aid would be useful to them.

 

[royal_archer]

There are people who are in that state because someone in a caretaker role in their lives has shielded them from all the logical consequences of their actions.

The way to become responsible is to be made to take responsibility, for as long and for as many times as the lesson takes to learn. There is no way around that.

In our society we tend to issolate people from the effects of their actions and choices; glossing over the impact of their decisions and enabling their self destructive behavior. It doesn’t seem that this is working in that the burden of dealing with this behavior is becoming an unbearable burden on society. Society does not seem to be willing to allow these individuals to be exposed to the consequences of their decisions.

 

[royal_archer]

Maybe we need to learn how they arrive at the decisions that they do. This could do at least a couple of things. It might help us realize that their decisions are rational within their worldview or circumstances. Also, information like that might help us know if a certain type of aid would be useful to them.

I have seen cases where people react in their daily lives like a person playing chess but only thinking about the current move and only considering one piece instead of considering all of the options and the next move.

 

[St_Francis]

The more I learn about our Faith and what the Church teaches about our lives and society, the more I realize that Catholicism is the perfect Way which He created for us.

When we consider the eternal consequences for our souls from our actions, rather than just what we are likely to get away with on the human level, we start making much better choices! What we see in the news and on court tv shows is the result of people being raised generations from Catholicism.

 

[royal_archer]

The more I learn about our Faith and what the Church teaches about our lives and society, the more I realize that Catholicism is the perfect Way which He created for us.

When we consider the eternal consequences for our souls from our actions, rather than just what we are likely to get away with on the human level, we start making much better choices! What we see in the news and on court tv shows is the result of people being raised generations from Catholicism.

A lot of these bad decisions are bad from a secular point of view as well as from a Christian point of view.

 

[St_Francis]

A lot of these bad decisions are bad from a secular point of view as well as from a Christian point of view.

Very true, but on a material level, we often think optimistically because we are dealing on a human level, whereas if we are dealing on a spiritual level, God knows everything; once we admit that His justice is perfect, unlike ours, we realize we can’t get away with things as easily as we can on a merely human level.

 

[Pug]

I have seen cases where people react in their daily lives like a person playing chess but only thinking about the current move and only considering one piece instead of considering all of the options and the next move.

I agree. I’ve seen this. In fact, that is what I am likely doing every time I sin. But it can apply to buying food at the store, or some simple task like that. A person might just buy for the week, without thinking about shopping sales and holding items in the cupboard long term.

But, maybe that way of shopping makes sense if you keep getting evicted and having to leave all the food behind. Either that, or you despair, and give up trying. It’s been years since I’ve seen an episode of the People’s Court, so I don’t really recall what the people were experiencing in their lives. But I used to live my life by making fairly stupid decisions (I’m only marginally better now), and it was not consequences that drove me to change. Consequences alone rarely made any difference. It was understanding and freedom from constant fear that helped me make other choices.

 

[djeter]

Today I made the mistake of watching afternoon court shows. I used to think they were actors untill a lawyer friend confirmed that those shows are indicative of people they run into in real life court cases. Then I watched the news and things didn’t get any better.

I am trying to be as sensative as possible with out ignoring the issue so here goes. I am convinced that there is a section of the population who are not capable of making rationale decisions. This results in these individuals continually making one detrimental decision after another. At what point do we say it is in these people’s best interest to appoint a guardian for them or some similar action?

I really feel sorry for these people who just don’t know better or just don’t have the capability to make better decisions. I don’t want to accuse any specific person of being in such a condition but in general what do we for people who do fit into this grouping?

 

[djeter]

A reading selection from Ian McEwan’s “Saturday”

Social Justice And Bad Luck

…and in remembering the square at its best – weekday lunchtimes, in warm weather, when the office crowds from the local production, advertising, and design companies bring their sandwiches and boxed salads, and the gates of the gardens are opened up. They loll on the grass in quiet groups, men and women of various races, mostly in their twenties and thirties, confident, cheerful, unoppressed, fit from private gym workouts, at home in their city.

So much divides them from the various broken figures that haunt the benches. Work is one outward sign. It can’t just be class or opportunities – the drunks and junkies come from all kinds of backgrounds as do the office people. Some of the worst wrecks have been privately educated.

Perowne, the professional reductionist, can’t help thinking it’s down to invisible folds and kinds of character, written in code, at the level of molecules. It’s a dim fate, to be the sort of a person who can’t earn a living, or resist another drink, or remember today what he resolved to do yesterday. No amount of social justice will cure or disperse this enfeebled army haunting the public places of every town.

So what then? Henry draws his dressing gown more closely around him. You have to recognize bad luck when you see it, you have to look out for these people. Some you can prise from their addictions, others – all you can do is make them comfortable somehow, minimize their miseries."

This quote always reminds me of the limits of modern liberalism – how the atheist has nothing to offer but some sort of vague “comfort.” The Church, however, has a solution and the truth.

regards,

dj

 

[jmcrae]

It was understanding and freedom from constant fear that helped me make other choices.

I think that’s a really good point. Someone who is living in a constant state of fear is a lot less likely to make rational, considered decisions. When you are terrified of the people you live with, the people you work with, and the people who are supposed to be protecting you, or if you are in a constant state of anxiety about the immediate future, it’s really difficult to think straight.

I think, too, and this is the opposite situation of someone who has never been punished for a bad decision, that if someone has never been rewarded for a good decision - for example, if they go out to work, and work as hard as they can, but aren’t seeing any results - someone is taking their money away from them, or for some reason no one is recognizing and rewarding the amount of work that they do, they would simply give up after a certain point and start thinking that it really doesn’t matter what they do.

 

[royal_archer]

A reading selection from Ian McEwan’s “Saturday”

Social Justice And Bad Luck

…and in remembering the square at its best – weekday lunchtimes, in warm weather, when the office crowds from the local production, advertising, and design companies bring their sandwiches and boxed salads, and the gates of the gardens are opened up. They loll on the grass in quiet groups, men and women of various races, mostly in their twenties and thirties, confident, cheerful, unoppressed, fit from private gym workouts, at home in their city.

So much divides them from the various broken figures that haunt the benches. Work is one outward sign. It can’t just be class or opportunities – the drunks and junkies come from all kinds of backgrounds as do the office people. Some of the worst wrecks have been privately educated.

Perowne, the professional reductionist, can’t help thinking it’s down to invisible folds and kinds of character, written in code, at the level of molecules. It’s a dim fate, to be the sort of a person who can’t earn a living, or resist another drink, or remember today what he resolved to do yesterday. No amount of social justice will cure or disperse this enfeebled army haunting the public places of every town.

So what then? Henry draws his dressing gown more closely around him. You have to recognize bad luck when you see it, you have to look out for these people. Some you can prise from their addictions, others – all you can do is make them comfortable somehow, minimize their miseries."

This quote always reminds me of the limits of modern liberalism – how the atheist has nothing to offer but some sort of vague “comfort.” The Church, however, has a solution and the truth.

regards,

dj

And what if IQ and other relevant mental attributes fit into the equation. We do tend to recognize those with Downs syndrom and provide guardians for them but we are a bit less proactive with those who have marginal mental capabilities.

 

[royal_archer]

I agree. I’ve seen this. In fact, that is what I am likely doing every time I sin. But it can apply to buying food at the store, or some simple task like that. A person might just buy for the week, without thinking about shopping sales and holding items in the cupboard long term.

But, maybe that way of shopping makes sense if you keep getting evicted and having to leave all the food behind. Either that, or you despair, and give up trying. It’s been years since I’ve seen an episode of the People’s Court, so I don’t really recall what the people were experiencing in their lives. But I used to live my life by making fairly stupid decisions (I’m only marginally better now), and it was not consequences that drove me to change. Consequences alone rarely made any difference. It was understanding and freedom from constant fear that helped me make other choices.

I was thinking more about the decisions that make people go bankrupt and perpetualy dependent on public assistance even though they are able bodied.

 

[St_Francis]

And what if IQ and other relevant mental attributes fit into the equation. We do tend to recognize those with Downs syndrom and provide guardians for them but we are a bit less proactive with those who have marginal mental capabilities.

And in a truly Catholic society, these would be cared for, no?

This is why I’m beginning to think that the best thing we can do as Catholics is to spread the Faith, to pray for success in this area, and to be holy Catholics ourselves. I don’t think that these problems can be solved without that.

 

[royal_archer]

And in a truly Catholic society, these would be cared for, no?

This is why I’m beginning to think that the best thing we can do as Catholics is to spread the Faith, to pray for success in this area, and to be holy Catholics ourselves. I don’t think that these problems can be solved without that.

In our society we do not care for these individuals, we let them fend for themselves and then we provide welfare programs to cover for them.

 

[Bluegoat]

And in a truly Catholic society, these would be cared for, no?

This is why I’m beginning to think that the best thing we can do as Catholics is to spread the Faith, to pray for success in this area, and to be holy Catholics ourselves. I don’t think that these problems can be solved without that.

I would think so, but then I look at the comments people make here about universal health care being intrinsically wrong, and I wonder. But then, I know of no Catholics here (in Canada) who would say such a thing, so maybe it is really cultural.

I think there can be a lot of reasons people do these things, and in combination they really start to be difficult to overcome.

Some people are simply not that rational, or are not as bright, or are driven by their emotions.

Some have never seen, close up, good examples of good decision making. I think this is actually a major cause - how to make good life decisions is learned to a large degree, and can be hard to acquire as an adult.

On a related note, some people become used to living in crisis, and almost seem to be addicted to the adrenalin and drama.

Some have been shielded from consequences, though I think that is usually a secondary cause, or one at work with some other factor.

Other situations can interferre with good decision making like addiction or real poverty, abuse, or stress.

People who think they don’t deserve any better don’t look to improve themselves.

And as a pp noted, if efforts to improve life are crushed too often, people sometimes give up.