People needing more help than they realize

[Bluegoat]

Something else I thought of, not totally the same question, but I think closely related. A psychiatrist I know works in prisons. He has told me that of the inmates, a huge proportion of them are FAS or FAE babies, and especially in the women’s prison, many have Borderline Personality Disorder which is associated with traumatic childhoods. And by many, I mean half or more. Both of these things are something in no way caused by the person who has them, which are more common in vulnerable populations where early intervention is unlikely, and easily explain much of the bad decision making by those that have them.

I wonder if this has some bearing on the OPs question.

 

[royal_archer]

Something else I thought of, not totally the same question, but I think closely related. A psychiatrist I know works in prisons. He has told me that of the inmates, a huge proportion of them are FAS or FAE babies, and especially in the women’s prison, many have Borderline Personality Disorder which is associated with traumatic childhoods. And by many, I mean half or more. Both of these things are something in no way caused by the person who has them, which are more common in vulnerable populations where early intervention is unlikely, and easily explain much of the bad decision making by those that have them.

I wonder if this has some bearing on the OPs question.

given that there are those out there who for one reason or another, can not make rational decisions, what do we do with them? I am thinking that some of these people need to have guardians appointed for them.

 

[St_Francis]

I would think so, but then I look at the comments people make here about universal health care being intrinsically wrong, and I wonder. But then, I know of no Catholics here (in Canada) who would say such a thing, so maybe it is really cultural.

The issue of universal health care is a tricky one. For me, there are a lot of reasons that I do not want government-run health care in my country, the US, and my reasons have nothing at all to do with a lack of desire to help people in need, nor do I think that having a secularist culture-of-death government running our health care is a good idea.

However, if one looks at Catholic societies, like England before Henry 8, and France before the Revolution, etc., people were cared for–by the *Church. *The “social safety net” was there, it just wasn’t connected to the government and was thus free of pragmatism.

I think there can be a lot of reasons people do these things, and in combination they really start to be difficult to overcome.

Some people are simply not that rational, or are not as bright, or are driven by their emotions.

Some have never seen, close up, good examples of good decision making. I think this is actually a major cause - how to make good life decisions is learned to a large degree, and can be hard to acquire as an adult.

On a related note, some people become used to living in crisis, and almost seem to be addicted to the adrenalin and drama.

Some have been shielded from consequences, though I think that is usually a secondary cause, or one at work with some other factor.

Other situations can interferre with good decision making like addiction or real poverty, abuse, or stress.

People who think they don’t deserve any better don’t look to improve themselves.

And as a pp noted, if efforts to improve life are crushed too often, people sometimes give up.

I think that a lot of what you have written here is very true (also the stuff you wrote about FAS and FAE); however, again, in a Catholic society, people would have more hope, people would have better role models, people would have areas of peace and a way to account for their suffering. This is why I am coming to believe that the *only *thing that we can do is to do everything we can to increase the influence of Catholicism and to spread the Faith.

 

[djeter]

And what if IQ and other relevant mental attributes fit into the equation. We do tend to recognize those with Downs syndrom and provide guardians for them but we are a bit less proactive with those who have marginal mental capabilities.

Not the point of the McEwan quote though, is it?

dj

 

[royal_archer]

Not the point of the McEwan quote though, is it?

dj

Per " So much divides them from the various broken figures that haunt the benches. Work is one outward sign. It can’t just be class or opportunities – the drunks and junkies come from all kinds of backgrounds as do the office people. Some of the worst wrecks have been privately educated. "

This recognizes that many who are unsuccessfull in society are not so because of class or opportunities. Ruling out those external influences leaves three “internal” influences: mental, physical, and spiritual. This thread deals with those overcome by their internal mental influences.

 

[djeter]

And in a truly Catholic society, these would be cared for, no?

This is why I’m beginning to think that the best thing we can do as Catholics is to spread the Faith, to pray for success in this area, and to be holy Catholics ourselves. I don’t think that these problems can be solved without that.

I think you are on to it, St. Francis because I see McEwan in my quote struggling with what Catholics might call Providence or God’s grace – a fate that cannot be explained away or dealt with by social engineering. Were that we able to find some component of dementia in homeless populations, some way of quantifying the unquantifiable. Until then, your answer is the best.

dj

 

[royal_archer]

I think you are on to it, St. Francis because I see McEwan in my quote struggling with what Catholics might call Providence or God’s grace – a fate that cannot be explained away or dealt with by social engineering. Were that we able to find some component of dementia in homeless populations, some way of quantifying the unquantifiable. Until then, your answer is the best.

dj

Isn’t being perpetually homeless quantification in itself? What about perpetual dependence on welfare where there is no severe physical disability? What about those who due to mental attributes are unemployable?

 

[djeter]

Per " So much divides them from the various broken figures that haunt the benches. Work is one outward sign. It can’t just be class or opportunities – the drunks and junkies come from all kinds of backgrounds as do the office people. Some of the worst wrecks have been privately educated. "

This recognizes that many who are unsuccessfull in society are not so because of class or opportunities. Ruling out those external influences leaves three “internal” influences: mental, physical, and spiritual. This thread deals with those overcome by their internal mental influences.

I confess I cannot follow what you are saying in this and your last post and how it applies to the Ian McEwan quote I offered. I don’t think McEwan is giving us a puzzle to solve through some social engineering feat; so finding some “internal mental influence” is hardly the point.

He is telling you (rather pointedly) that the social engineering doesn’t WORK. It is BAD LUCK. And his character (Perowne) shivers and snuggles into his dressing gown and calls it bad luck because he is a secularist and doesn’t understand how God’s providence works. Wouldn’t see it if it were a burning bush on the way to work. Well he might stop and light a cigarette and move on…

You, however, want to press on an analyze further. It’s the slicing and dicing that leads to further trouble.

dj

 

[jmcrae]

Isn’t being perpetually homeless quantification in itself?

In a lot of municipalities, they’ve been finding that the best way to solve the problem of homelessness is surprisingly simple - to put people into homes, pay their rent for six months, and then deal with whatever made them homeless to start with (addiction, negative personality issues, etc.).

What about perpetual dependence on welfare where there is no severe physical disability?

The question to ask is, what makes being on welfare feel “safer” to these people than having a job and being a productive member of society? Do they find that they are continually finding themselves out of work, because of situations that seem to be outside of their control?

What about those who due to mental attributes are unemployable?

Are you referring here to people who just don’t have the right attitude towards work, or to people with actual mental illnesses?

 

[djeter]

Isn’t being perpetually homeless quantification in itself? What about perpetual dependence on welfare where there is no severe physical disability? What about those who due to mental attributes are unemployable?

You have (as previously noted) a quantification lizard loose in your drawers. At some point there is no answer and as a secularist you call it bad luck. As a Catholic we can see Providence, a much better answer for those on the path to eternal life.

 

[royal_archer]

In a lot of municipalities, they’ve been finding that the best way to solve the problem of homelessness is surprisingly simple - to put people into homes, pay their rent for six months, and then deal with whatever made them homeless to start with (addiction, negative personality issues, etc.).

Several generations of the welfare state should have sufficed. Unemployment insurance is there to address short term situations. How about institutionalization to some extent to deal with the issues or find them a guardian who can provide long term care?

The question to ask is, what makes being on welfare feel “safer” to these people than having a job and being a productive member of society? Do they find that they are continually finding themselves out of work, because of situations that seem to be outside of their control?

What you are describing are symptoms of mental issues. ( know that there are those who like to quible over the deffinition of mental vs social vs whatever, I am generically addressing things going on in peoples heads.)

Are you referring here to people who just don’t have the right attitude towards work, or to people with actual mental illnesses?

I am not refering to those who make a concious decision to leach off society, I am refering to the people who are willing contributors but are not mentally able.

 

[royal_archer]

You have (as previously noted) a quantification lizard loose in your drawers. At some point there is no answer and as a secularist you call it bad luck. As a Catholic we can see Providence, a much better answer for those on the path to eternal life.

Quantification lizard? What?

Where in the CCC does it state that every misfortune that falls upon people is a matter of divine providence? I have not relegated the fortune / misfortune of others to simple luck. However there are factors in our lives that we all encounter that are not a result of our cognizant efforts and we can not definatively say these are God’s direct will. “Luck” is therefore used as a generic term categorize things in our environment which were not of our doing.

 

[Bluegoat]

Quantification lizard? What?

Where in the CCC does it state that every misfortune that falls upon people is a matter of divine providence? I have not relegated the fortune / misfortune of others to simple luck. However there are factors in our lives that we all encounter that are not a result of our cognizant efforts and we can not definatively say these are God’s direct will. “Luck” is therefore used as a generic term categorize things in our environment which were not of our doing.

Well, according to Boethius in The Consolation of Philosophy, there really is no such thing as luck, simply divine providence. I think his argument is pretty strong.

 

[royal_archer]

Well, according to Boethius in The Consolation of Philosophy, there really is no such thing as luck, simply divine providence. I think his argument is pretty strong.

So what does that have to do with helping people who are not mentaly cappable of handling their own affairs?

 

[Bluegoat]

So what does that have to do with helping people who are not mentaly cappable of handling their own affairs?

Goodness, I am not sure. In the book, Boethius, a well-respected magistrate, is in prison, and facing execution, because he has stood up for what is right and fallen afoul of the Roman government. He is depressed, cursing his luck, and doubting God.

I think from the conclusions he comes to after being instructed by Lady Philosophy, one could say something like “the poor (including those with some sort of impediment or defect) will be with us always” and that they are part of God’s divine providence, though we may not perceive how, and it may well be through no fault of their own or any other discernible cause.

It does not address what our moral obligation is to them. Boethius was executed in real life, but that is rather an example of a moral failing.

 

[royal_archer]

Goodness, I am not sure. In the book, Boethius, a well-respected magistrate, is in prison, and facing execution, because he has stood up for what is right and fallen afoul of the Roman government. He is depressed, cursing his luck, and doubting God.

I think from the conclusions he comes to after being instructed by Lady Philosophy, one could say something like “the poor (including those with some sort of impediment or defect) will be with us always” and that they are part of God’s divine providence, though we may not perceive how, and it may well be through no fault of their own or any other discernible cause.

It does not address what our moral obligation is to them. Boethius was executed in real life, but that is rather an example of a moral failing.

And how does that relate to the discussion of the pragmatic solutions to dealing with those who are not mentaly capable taking care of themselves? Theorizing about what divine influence there was in getting them to that point is irrelevant unless the information can be used to cure them of their affliction.

 

[Bluegoat]

And how does that relate to the discussion of the pragmatic solutions to dealing with those who are not mentaly capable taking care of themselves? Theorizing about what divine influence there was in getting them to that point is irrelevant unless the information can be used to cure them of their affliction.

I was just commenting on the discussion of divine providence, and whether all things fall within it.

However, I would say it suggests that there is never going to be complete understanding of the hows and whys, which to me means that we will not be able to solve such problems definitively, and also that we must be careful about being judgmental in such situations.

It also means that such things do fall within God’s plan, and that they are somehow, I think, a means for his Grace.

 

[djeter]

Theorizing about what divine influence there was in getting them to that point is irrelevant unless the information can be used to cure them of their affliction.

Is that what we are doing, mr. social engineer? Are you really sure?

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/09/18/book-recommendation-a-canticle-for-leibowitz-by-walter-m-miller-jr/

dj

 

[royal_archer]

Is that what we are doing, mr. social engineer? Are you really sure?

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/09/18/book-recommendation-a-canticle-for-leibowitz-by-walter-m-miller-jr/

dj

Please leave the Sci-Fi out of it, this was meant to be a serious discussion.

 

[royal_archer]

I was just commenting on the discussion of divine providence, and whether all things fall within it.

However, I would say it suggests that there is never going to be complete understanding of the hows and whys, which to me means that we will not be able to solve such problems definitively, and also that we must be careful about being judgmental in such situations.

It also means that such things do fall within God’s plan, and that they are somehow, I think, a means for his Grace.

I get the impressio you are advocating allowing the mentally disabled to just suffer for lack of ability to make basic decisions because it is part of God’s plan. Is this correct?

I think God’s plan is for us to do something about it. Which hopefully gets us back to the point of the thread of how do we help these people?