People of the Book for Muslims

[eleusis]

The questions is addressed to the Muslims who visit this site: What is your faith’s relationship to the Old Testament of the Christian faith? I understand it is considered part of the Muslim faith but to what extend? And what version?? The Catholic Vulgate translation or one of the Protestant knock offs or perhaps a Jewish (gasp) version??

Thanks,

 

[Shenango]

eleusis:

The questions is addressed to the Muslims who visit this site: What is your faith’s relationship to the Old Testament of the Christian faith? I understand it is considered part of the Muslim faith but to what extend? And what version?? The Catholic Vulgate translation or one of the Protestant knock offs or perhaps a Jewish (gasp) version??

Greetings Eleusis,

Islam officially acknowledges neither the Old or New Testament in any form. What it does acknowledge are the Torah of Moses (PBUH) and Gospel of Jesus (PBUH). The Torah is the Law that Moses (PBUH) received from God, and the Gospel is the oral teachings of Christ (PBUH) to the Children of Israel. What, if any, portion of these remains in current Old and New Testaments is debatable. You will find opinions at both ends of the scale about this; some who vouch for the entirety of those Scriptures as divinely revealed, some none of them, and everything in between.

From my study of the issue, the truth is certainly in between. Jews and Christians possess enough of Moses’ Torah and Jesus’ Gospel in their current Scriptures for us to acknowledge that they have them generally, but the key is not everything Jews and Christians claim to be the Torah and Gospel actually are. The standard for judgement is agreement with the Qur’an and Islam. What can and does agree may be considered holy, what does not cannot, and what neither agreees nor disagrees is questionable.

 

[exoflare]

STUDENT: I’d like to appeal my grade on this test.

TEACHER: What’s the matter?

STUDENT: I didn’t fail. Your answer key must have been corrupted.

 

[Shenango]

exoflare:

STUDENT: I’d like to appeal my grade on this test.

TEACHER: What’s the matter?

STUDENT: I didn’t fail. Your answer key must have been corrupted.

The “teacher”'s answer key must be corrupt because it contradicts even itself, and the “teacher” should have known that and not needed the “student” to point it out to him.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Shenango,
Merely saying something is corrupted doesn’t prove it’s corrupted. You have to actually prove that it’s corrupted. So for, for 14 centuries no Muslim has ever been able to prove that the Torah and Bible, Old or New Testaments, have been corrupted. All you have is your Quran making unsubstantiated claims.

About time you Muslims start substantiating your claims.

Ciudate,
Rodrigo

PS: excuse us but we don’t accept the Quran’s word as the truth. Some evidence to substantiate the claims therein would be mighty handy.

 

[Shenango]

Rodrigo Bivar:

About time you Muslims start substantiating your claims.

Biblical criticism has already done all the work for us.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Shenango,
What exactly do you mean? That the KJV is different from the NIV?

Hasta la vista,
Rodrigo

 

[Neverland]

Dear Shen,

You may want to read it in Pararellism by Rodrigo.

Neverland

 

[exoflare]

Neverland:

Dear Shen,

You may want to read it in Pararellism by Rodrigo.

Neverland

I’m not sure whether I have to state it so bluntly, but Shenango is just here to try and stir up confusion. Don’t fall under the impression that he’s serious about all this.

 

[Shenango]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Shenango,
What exactly do you mean? That the KJV is different from the NIV?

No, I’m talking more Documentary Hypothesis and stuff like John 7:53-8:11.

 

[Shenango]

exoflare:

I’m not sure whether I have to state it so bluntly, but Shenango is just here to try and stir up confusion. Don’t fall under the impression that he’s serious about all this.

Ok, exoflare, when you have to personally denounce me instead of refuting my arguments, I can tell you’re scared of me…LOL :bounce:

 

[exoflare]

Shenango:

Ok, exoflare, when you have to personally denounce me instead of refuting my arguments, I can tell you’re scared of me…LOL :bounce:

Whatever you want. The funny thing is you really think it’s gonna be so easy to drag me into the mud like that. Don’t assume everybody else is so controlled by the desire to preserve their own self-pride.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Shenango:

No, I’m talking more Documentary Hypothesis and stuff like John 7:53-8:11.

Care to spell it out for us?

Ciudate,
Cid

 

[Shenango]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Care to spell it out for us?

The subject of Bible corruption is one I’ve discussed at length on this site, in previous threads. Please do search for them; I state my position with detailed exposition. I’m too lazy to repeat all that stuff here.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

What can I say? If you’re too lazy, you’re too lazy.

Ciudate,
Rodrigo

 

[exoflare]

Rodrigo Bivar:

What can I say? If you’re too lazy, you’re too lazy.

Ciudate,
Rodrigo

Well look at his last six posts here… It’s basically, “we can’t ever know for sure how much of the Bible is corrupted, but since the Quran says so it must be true” and from there on it goes into a bunch of evasion and fluff. I’m not sure why he seems to have such a high opinion of himself.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

Muslim: Salaam. The Bible is false.
Christian: Hello. Prove it.
Muslim: The Prophet Muhammed said so.
Christian: Umm…
Muslim: Victory!

Muslim: Allah is the one God and Muhammed is his prophet. Muhammed recieved from Allah the Truth and Muhammed wrote it in the Qu’ran.
Christian: Why did Muhammed change his mind about what Allah told him?
Muslim: The devil told him the wrong stuff. Allah told him what is right.
Christian: So the devil and Allah have the same voice?
Muslim: Allah is the one God and Muhammed is his prophet.
Christian: What?..
Muslim: Victory!

 

[discipleofJesus]

CollegeCatholic:

Muslim: Salaam. The Bible is false.
Christian: Hello. Prove it.
Muslim: The Prophet Muhammed said so.
Christian: Umm…
Muslim: Victory!

Muslim: Allah is the one God and Muhammed is his prophet. Muhammed recieved from Allah the Truth and Muhammed wrote it in the Qu’ran.
Christian: Why did Muhammed change his mind about what Allah told him?
Muslim: The devil told him the wrong stuff. Allah told him what is right.
Christian: So the devil and Allah have the same voice?
Muslim: Allah is the one God and Muhammed is his prophet.
Christian: What?..
Muslim: Victory!

LOL! that’s hilarious!

 

[discipleofJesus]

Shenango:

No, I’m talking more Documentary Hypothesis and stuff like John 7:53-8:11.

The Documentary Hypothesis is just a ‘Hypothesis’ and has been proven wrong by Christians. See, for example, carm.org/bible/jedp_b.htm

John 7:53-8:11 doesn’t prove that the Bible is corrupt. Here’s an excerpt from Chapter 1 of “Facing the Muslim Challenge
A Handbook of Christian-Muslim Apologetics”
by John Gilchrist answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Challenge/chap1.html
that will explain why

1.3 The Passages in Mark 16 and John 8

Muslim: There are two passages in the Gospels which appear in some of the ancient manuscripts but not in others. Some editions of the RSV Bible include them in the text while others omit them. Does this not prove conclusively the Bible has been changed?

Despite the great length of the Bible (it is five times the length of the Qur’an) there are only two passages about which there can be any question of their authenticity. They fill less than a page of a book consisting of more than a thousand pages. Let us consider them.

…

John 8.1-11: The Woman Caught in Adultery

The only other passage about which there is any uncertainty in the New Testament is the story about Jesus and the woman caught in adultery recorded in John 8.1-11. Some ancient manuscripts include it right here, others omit it completely while some others have added it as an appendix to Luke’s Gospel. There seems to have been a general consensus in early Christian times that it was genuine save that its exact location was disputed. There are, in fact, a number of reasons to conclude that it was originally part of John’s Gospel just where it stands today - at the beginning of the eighth chapter.

1. The Contrasting Ministry of Moses and Jesus

Throughout this Gospel a contrast is drawn between the limited ministry of Moses and the fulfilment of all God’s purposes in Jesus Christ. “The law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John 1.17) sums this principle up. For example, although Moses fed the people with bread for forty years, they still died. He who feeds on Jesus who is the bread of eternal life will, however, live forever (John 6.31-35). Likewise people could be circumcised on the sabbath simply to comply with the law of Moses - how much more could a man’s whole body be made well on the sabbath by Jesus. (John 7.23) So in this passage the law of Moses convicted the woman involved of adultery but, under the light of Jesus’ teaching and presence, all present left the scene convicted of sin (John 8.7-9). The woman, however, was left to experience the saving grace that Jesus brought (John 8.10-11).

2. Jesus’ Use of the Term "Woman"

When all the Jewish leaders had departed from the scene Jesus addressed the adulterous woman “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” (John 8.10). This unusual use of the vocative “Woman” by Jesus as a personal mark of respect (like “Sir”) appears again in John’s Gospel on a number of occasions (John 2.4, 4.21, 20.15) but does not appear in the other Gospels.

3. The Logical Sequence of Events

The Pharisees, who are not mentioned in this Gospel until now, suddenly appear without introduction in discussion with Jesus in John 8.13. The introduction clearly appears in John 8.3. Likewise the heated debate between them and Jesus which follows in the rest of the chapter is obviously a consequence of the narrative recorded in John 8.1-11. Throughout his Gospel John records incidents in the life of Jesus which gave rise to discourses and debates with the Jewish leaders (cf. John 6.1-59) and without the story of the woman caught in adultery and subsequent interaction of Jesus with them this trend is uncharacteristically broken.

cont…

 

[discipleofJesus]

…

4. Jesus and Moses: Conviction of Sin

In the debate with these leaders Jesus interjected “Which of you convicts me of sin?” (John 8.46). This statement would be somewhat isolated had the incident with the woman not occurred. It is here that Jesus boldly declares to them “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her” (John 8.7). One by one, in response to this challenge, they left the scene, beginning from the eldest, until Jesus was left alone with the woman before him. The thrust is clear - he had convicted them all of sin - which one of them could do the same to him in return?

There is considerable, if not convincing, evidence that John 8.1-11 belongs just where it is found. In any event yet again there is nothing in the incident which conflicts with anything else taught in the New Testament. There is, therefore, no significant or relevant evidence anywhere to show that passages have been omitted from or added to the Bible which have changed its overall teaching from an originally Islamic basis to a Christian theme. Arguments around the two passages considered here do not begin to prove the Muslim case. As said already they fill less than half a page - hardly the kind of proof that the Bible as a whole has been changed.

On the contrary we will proceed to show that there are far greater evidences for passages from the Qur’an that were said to have originally formed part of the text but have since been omitted. It will be seen yet again that the Qur’an’s original textual integrity is far more questionable than that of the Bible - even though the Bible is five times the length of the Qur’an and was compiled over a much longer period many centuries earlier.

if you want to see what the chapter says about the passage in Mark 16, click on the above link (since i skipped it with ‘…’ in my excerpt from the chapter)