People singing Offertory

[Filii_Dei]

I hope the OP responds soon to our inquiries. I, too, find the scenario rather strange that the congregation could even sing the Offertory Prayer with the priest, even if the priest really did ask them to.

The Offertory Prayer is supposed to be said in a low voice by the priest. In fact, most people are probably unaware that the priest prays something during the Offertory. Additionally, pew missals and hymnals wouldn’t contain the text of the prayer, so the congregation wouldn’t know the words to the prayer even if they knew it existed, so they couldn’t even recite it. Furthermore, the prayer is usually recited and not set to a chant or song, so how they managed to sing it is also beyond me.

1. The Priest, standing at the altar, takes the paten with the bread and holds it slightly raised above the altar with both hands, saying in a low voice:
   Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation,
   for through your goodness we have received
   the bread we offer you:
   fruit of the earth and work of human hands,
   it will become for us the bread of life.
   Then he places the paten with the bread on the corporal.

However, there is an option for the congregation to respond to the prayer. However, this is recited, and I am not aware of any chant for this to be sung either.

If, however, the Offertory Chant is not sung, the Priest may speak these words aloud; at the end, the people may acclaim:
Blessed be God for ever.

If it was the former that he heard the congregation say, then it is certainly an abuse. However, if it was the latter, then no abuse has occurred.

Alternatively, the OP may have been thinking of the Offertory Chant, which is proper and fitting for the congregation to sing, but there is only one chant, not two. :yukonjoe:

 

[Filii_Dei]

I hope the OP responds soon to our inquiries. I, too, find the scenario rather strange that the congregation could even sing the Offertory Prayer with the priest, even if the priest really did ask them to.

The Offertory Prayer is supposed to be said in a low voice by the priest. In fact, most people are probably unaware that the priest prays something during the Offertory. Additionally, pew missals and hymnals wouldn’t contain the text of the prayer. The congregation wouldn’t know the words to the prayer even if they knew it existed, so they couldn’t even recite it. Furthermore, the prayer is usually recited and not set to a chant or song, so how they managed to sing it is also beyond me.

1. The Priest, standing at the altar, takes the paten with the bread and holds it slightly raised above the altar with both hands, saying in a low voice:
   Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation,
   for through your goodness we have received
   the bread we offer you:
   fruit of the earth and work of human hands,
   it will become for us the bread of life.
   Then he places the paten with the bread on the corporal.

There is an option for the congregation to respond to the prayer. However, this is also recited, and I am not aware of any chant for this to be sung either.

If, however, the Offertory Chant is not sung, the Priest may speak these words aloud; at the end, the people may acclaim:
Blessed be God for ever.

If it was the former that he heard the congregation say, then it is certainly an abuse. However, if it was the latter, then no abuse has occurred.

Alternatively, the OP may have been thinking of the Offertory Chant, which is proper and fitting for the congregation to sing, but there is only one chant, not two. :yukonjoe:

 

[Anathama_Sit]

I am really not sure if the OP will respond, I know we are all in limbo while waiting for their response as when the OP can clarify his or her post, we can all resolve this.

 

[japhy]

I did do research on it as this has come up in the past and that is what the information I have found. I don’t know if anything has changed with the new translation, but that is based on something just before I moved to the Eastern Church, which is less than 2 years ago. Its hard to find the sources again from two years ago. But I will post them if I do find them.

Never heard of this “third option”.

 

[a83192]

I hope the OP responds soon to our inquiries. I, too, find the scenario rather strange that the congregation could even sing the Offertory Prayer with the priest, even if the priest really did ask them to.

The Offertory Prayer is supposed to be said in a low voice by the priest. In fact, most people are probably unaware that the priest prays something during the Offertory. Additionally, pew missals and hymnals wouldn’t contain the text of the prayer. The congregation wouldn’t know the words to the prayer even if they knew it existed, so they couldn’t even recite it. Furthermore, the prayer is usually recited and not set to a chant or song, so how they managed to sing it is also beyond me.

There is an option for the congregation to respond to the prayer. However, this is also recited, and I am not aware of any chant for this to be sung either.

If it was the former that he heard the congregation say, then it is certainly an abuse. However, if it was the latter, then no abuse has occurred.

Alternatively, the OP may have been thinking of the Offertory Chant, which is proper and fitting for the congregation to sing, but there is only one chant, not two. :yukonjoe:

This was the actual Offertory prayers that they sung the BLESSED ARE YOU LORD… etc

 

[paperwight66]

Well, there is a hymn, which goes ‘Blest are you Lord, God, of all creation,
thanks to your goodness this bread we offer, fruit of the earth, work of our hands, it will becaome the bread of life (then a chorus) blessed be God x 3 forever amen, repeated’ with a similar verse for the wine.
Is it that you are thinking of? I mean, it does very closely follow the words of the offertory, and our parish sings it frequently before the actual prayer while the baskets are passed round. But I don’t think anyone confuses it with saying the prayer reserved for the priest.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Well, there is a hymn, which goes ‘Blest are you Lord, God, of all creation,
thanks to your goodness this bread we offer, fruit of the earth, work of our hands, it will becaome the bread of life (then a chorus) blessed be God x 3 forever amen, repeated’ with a similar verse for the wine.
Is it that you are thinking of? I mean, it does very closely follow the words of the offertory, and our parish sings it frequently before the actual prayer while the baskets are passed round. But I don’t think anyone confuses it with saying the prayer reserved for the priest.

That is only done if there is no offertory chant, and “Blessed be God forever” is only said once.

 

[paperwight66]

That is only done if there is no offertory chant, and “Blessed be God forever” is only said once.

Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean? This is an actual hymn n the hymnbook called ‘the Celebration Hymnal’ and the words are as I said.

I’m aware that the prayer of the priest is responded to by the congregation with ‘Blessed be God forever’, first for the bread, then a second time for the wine.

I was suggesting that the singing heard by the OP was, in fact, a hymn out of a hymnbook, and not the replacing of the priest’s words.

 

[Filii_Dei]

That is only done if there is no offertory chant, and “Blessed be God forever” is only said once.

Actually, it is said twice. The first after offering the bread, the second after offering the wine and water.

1. The Priest, standing at the altar, takes the paten with the bread and holds it slightly raised above the altar with both hands, saying in a low voice:
   Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation,
   for through your goodness we have received
   the bread we offer you:
   fruit of the earth and work of human hands,
   it will become for us the bread of life.
   Then he places the paten with the bread on the corporal.
   If, however, the Offertory Chant is not sung, the Priest may speak these words aloud; at the end, the people may acclaim:
   Blessed be God for ever.

1. The Priest then takes the chalice and holds it slightly raised above the altar with both hands, saying in a low voice:
   Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation,
   for through your goodness we have received
   the wine we offer you:
   fruit of the vine and work of human hands,
   it will become our spiritual drink.
   Then he places the chalice on the corporal.
   If, however, the Offertory Chant is not sung, the Priest may speak these words aloud; at the end, the people may acclaim:
   Blessed be God for ever.

Anyway, a83192 has specifically mentioned that they sung the prayer beginning thus “Blessed are you, Lord…”, so it’s unlikely to be just this response.

I have no other explanation for this apart from suggesting that it may have been a concerted effort between the congregation and priest to insert this liturgical abuse. A congregation would not have recited it, much less sung it, unless they had specifically and intentionally learned it, and/or they had specially-printed mass booklets for this.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean? This is an actual hymn n the hymnbook called ‘the Celebration Hymnal’ and the words are as I said.

I’m aware that the prayer of the priest is responded to by the congregation with ‘Blessed be God forever’, first for the bread, then a second time for the wine.

I was suggesting that the singing heard by the OP was, in fact, a hymn out of a hymnbook, and not the replacing of the priest’s words.

Um…? That’s a weird hymn. Those words are the silent offertory prayers that are supposed to be the priest’s own, and private. You know how the priest says a silent, private prayer during the lavabo? Same thing here with the offertory. He picks up a host and says, “Blessed are you, Lord God…” and something similar for the chalice. IF there is no offertory chant/hymn/whatever, those prayers are allowed as per the Roman Missal to instead be prayed aloud, to which the people respond, “Blessed be God forever,” to each. If a publisher is taking those texts and setting them to music, I think that might be illicit. The Missal stipulates that those prayers are said, not sung, and in practice are not commonly prayed aloud at all, although they are allowed to be in one case.

Actually, it is said twice. The first after offering the bread, the second after offering the wine and water.

Anyway, a83192 has specifically mentioned that they sung the prayer beginning thus “Blessed are you, Lord…”, so it’s unlikely to be just this response.

I have no other explanation for this apart from suggesting that it may have been a concerted effort between the congregation and priest to insert this liturgical abuse. A congregation would not have recited it, much less sung it, unless they had specifically and intentionally learned it, and/or they had specially-printed mass booklets for this.

Yeah but I meant once after each prayer. I thought the quoted poster was meaning that after each prayer, “Blessed be God forever,” should be said thrice.

Yes, the offertory prayers are the priest’s prayers alone, and are only prayed aloud if there is no accompanying chant, and even if they are said aloud, they are never sung.

 

[paperwight66]

Um…? That’s a weird hymn. Those words are the silent offertory prayers that are supposed to be the priest’s own, and private. You know how the priest says a silent, private prayer during the lavabo? Same thing here with the offertory. He picks up a host and says, “Blessed are you, Lord God…” and something similar for the chalice. IF there is no offertory chant/hymn/whatever, those prayers are allowed as per the Roman Missal to instead be prayed aloud, to which the people respond, “Blessed be God forever,” to each. If a publisher is taking those texts and setting them to music, I think that might be illicit. The Missal stipulates that those prayers are said, not sung, and in practice are not commonly prayed aloud at all, although they are allowed to be in one case.

Yeah but I meant once after each prayer. I thought the quoted poster was meaning that after each prayer, “Blessed be God forever,” should be said thrice.

Yes, the offertory prayers are the priest’s prayers alone, and are only prayed aloud if there is no accompanying chant, and even if they are said aloud, they are never sung.

My dear, I suspect I was attending Mass before you were even BORN, so I am quite aware of the prayers the priest says.

The hymn in question is often sung in our parish - as I said, generally while the collection baskets are being carried round.

I did not say that the hymn replaced the words said by the priest.

 

[YoungTradCath]

My dear, I suspect I was attending Mass before you were even BORN, so I am quite aware of the prayers the priest says.

The hymn in question is often sung in our parish - as I said, generally while the collection baskets are being carried round.

I did not say that the hymn replaced the words said by the priest.

Yes, but I still think it’s illicit for the words to be sung. The Roman Missal only prescribes them to be prayed out loud (as I’m sure you know) when there is no offertory chant, and even then, it does not prescribe for them to be sung.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Come now, let us discuss the issues, not each other.

 

[a83192]

My dear, I suspect I was attending Mass before you were even BORN, so I am quite aware of the prayers the priest says.

The hymn in question is often sung in our parish - as I said, generally while the collection baskets are being carried round.

I did not say that the hymn replaced the words said by the priest.

that song follows the offertory prayers suspiciously close.

 

[japhy]

I don’t think there is anything wrong with there being a hymn which is based (almost word-for-word) on the Offertory prayers over the bread and wine. They’re not particularly “ministerial priesthood”-ly words; they aren’t consecratory. They’re more matter-of-fact: “Lord, you are blessed: You have given us bread and wine that will become our sacramental nourishment.” And the response of the congregation repeats that God is indeed blessed.

And lest someone say “well, the OLD Offertory prayers from the Latin Mass…”, it should be pointed out that some of the Offertory prayers from the Extraordinary Form of the Mass (e.g. the one over the bread, which refers to it as a “spotless host”) were taken from ninth-century layman’s prayer book; it was a prayer for him to say silently, not during the Offertory of the time, but during the Canon (post-consecration, one would imagine).

 

[Anathama_Sit]

I familiar with that hymn and there have been some requests to actually use it by the choir and some of the parishoners. My response is that I do not feel comfortable singing it as it does closely follow the words of the priest. For this reason this hymnn is never used at my parish.