People who do not like traditional Catholicism

[Saint_Gemma]

Would someone please explain to me why so many people who do not like traditional Catholicism frequent this sub-forum? Are they trying to convert traditional Catholics to less traditional Catholicism? I can understand trying to convert someone who thinks that the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite is illicit or invalid, but why would one want to convert someone who just prefers the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite? Most of the people who I know who prefer the Extraordinary Form would be happy liturgically if every Mass was just celebrated sans liturgical abuses. Why is this a bad thing?

 

[Dempsey1919]

I don’t know the answer to this question but I am also perplexed that there are some Catholics out there who dislike anything that is even remotely traditional.

This is how I define traditional Catholicism:

• A love of the Tridentine Mass without questioning the validity of the OF.
• Fondness for traditional spirituality such as the Rosary
• A strong devotion to the Eucharist and the Mother of God

Why would anyone oppose such things. Traditional Catholicism is true Catholicism that flourished for thousands of years. The Saints became Saints through the practice of traditional Catholicism.

In fact, I view conservatives as traditionalists because they basically hold the same views as traditionalists without necessarily prefering the Tridentine Mass. The only people who seem opposed to traditional/conservative Catholicism are liberal dissenters who want to change the Church to suit the times. They should join the Anglican Church. It would suit them better because they have the woman priests, they allow contraception and they also condone homosexuality to the extent that they have practicing homosexual Bishops.

 

[Tedster]

My thought is simply, traditionalism challenges their liberal agenda and they fear that. Just my thought!

 

[I_Believe]

Saint_Gemma, I think you will find the answer in your signature.
I’m not offended by it, nor do I think there is anything wrong with it. But my point is, many equate the word traditionalist with the words disobedience, schismatic, etc. Again, not saying you do.

Also, many are comfortable with the way things are in their own parishes, and see traditionalists as a threat, even though they are not. I attended a Saturday evening vigil Mass last week at a parish I had not been to before. It was an NO Pentecost vigil Mass. The priest began the Opening Prayer, stopped after the first few words, and said " Instead of this, let’s sing a hymn of praise". The lector then immediately led the faithful. I’ll spare everyone the details of the other lector who recited the readings, but will say her choice of dress was appalling.

Now, if I had said anything to someone after Mass about this, being a guest at this parish, I’m sure I would have been seen as a trouble maker. Like I said, some are simply comfortable with whatever their priest does and allows, right or wrong.

 

[brotherhrolf]

How can ANYONE equate traditionalism with disobedience, schism, etc.

What am I, chopped liver? I’m not dead yet and I’m feeling better! I’m 56… Made my First Communion and was Confirmed before Vatican II. It may come as a shock to a lot of you but there were a whole bunch of us who were teenagers during and after Vatican II who didn’t swoon over the NO and were perfectly happy with the TLM. We got swept off to the dust bin after 1970 but that doesn’t mean we died.

So, here I am forty years later. Haven’t changed my mind and, yes, I am wondering why I am constantly assaulted for my beliefs, which are, after all, that which I was taught in Catholic school from 1956 through 1969.

It pains me greatly to be assaulted by converts. OK, y’all don’t agree with traditional Catholicsm…don’t post here. It’s that simple. But I can no more change who I am…I can no more forget that I was an altar boy and I served at TLMs including 6 AM Mass when it was just me and Father. (And no, I was never molested).

I don’t attend a TLM parish. I do attend a reverent NO cathedral parish where I have been a cathedral chorister for 25 years. I have seen my parish grow from 200 people in 1983 to over 2,000 families today and I think a lot of that is directly attributable to the fact that we are reverent and that you can hear chant, plainsong, and sacred polyphony on a regular basis.

Frankly, St. Gemma, I ask the same question. Why? Have I stopped being anything less than who I am and how I was raised? Was I just supposed to join my classmates at my boy’s Catholic high school in 1968 and go, whoopee!, we can sing Simon and Garfunkle at Mass?

I came by my beliefs honestly. It was how I was raised. Do I want to go back to the TLM? No. Would I like to have an occassional Solemn High Mass in Latin with choir, you betcha.

For the life of me, I do not understand why folks need to come and bash us because of what we grew up with.

 

[palmas85]

Would someone please explain to me why so many people who do not like traditional Catholicism frequent this sub-forum? Are they trying to convert traditional Catholics to less traditional Catholicism? I can understand trying to convert someone who thinks that the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite is illicit or invalid, but why would one want to convert someone who just prefers the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite? Most of the people who I know who prefer the Extraordinary Form would be happy liturgically if every Mass was just celebrated sans liturgical abuses. Why is this a bad thing?

Many Traditional bashers are just that bashers. More than a few, in fact I would venture to say have never even attended a Traditional Mass let alone were alive when it was the norm. They repeat by and large the same stock objections that protestants, yes protestants, have used since the reformation. Luther had a whole bunch of them and if you read his writing you will see almost every objection these bashers bring up were complaints that he had. I think a lot of them are just repeating what they have heard and have little if any personal experience with Traditionals or the Traditional Mass.

Most bashers I think fall into three general groups.

One group. does it just for the heck of it and shock value. Get a rise from the traditionals. Make them mad, its fun. Its basically the same as the posts some will put up concerning Tabernacles located under stairwells, in broom closets and in one bizarre post a bathroom. They know these statements will shock and offend so they post them. Many traditional bashers fall into this group. I would guess that a large number of them are High Schoolers or younger and really don’t have much in the way of beliefs themselves. Its all for show.

A second group are people who love the Pauline Rite and think that those who don’t share that love, as they do are wrong. They often see traditionalists as being schismatics or worse and maybe not fully in communion with Rome. They can’t understand why someone would find fault with the Pauline Rite at all, let alone want to attend another type of Mass… Most of these I think are truly concerned with the state of Traditionalists souls and think that they are in danger of losing communion with the Church. All too often they believe all Traditionalists and those who prefer the Traditional Mass are all followers of Pope Michael in Topeka or something other self proclaimed Pope.

A third group are those who for whatever reason hate the Traditional Rite with a passion that is really not understandable to me. To them, the Traditional Mass keeps the Catholic Church from attaining true and full communion with the rest of Christianity. They see the Traditional Mass as an archaic expression of piety that has no place in todays world. It angers them that it is even celebrated and deeply offends their sense of ecumenism. Many liberals fall into this category because liberals by and large don’t believe in absolutes. Beliefs can change, modify and grow, develop as it were. Truth is relative to its time and place. Religion must reflect the current reality or it is wrong. In essence, it doesn’t really matter what you believe or how you worship as long as you believe in and worship something.

The Traditional Mass by its very nature is rigid, It doesn’t permit much in the way of experimentation and change. It is pretty much an absolute and the changes that have occurred in it developed slowly. That in and of itself offends liberals because in order for something to be relevant it must be accommodating of all and accepting of any change.

I happen to fall into the group of people who are happy with a reverent Mass and I am quite lucky to have in New Orleans, a Church that does just that, daily, always, a true gem of a Church, St Patricks. No abuses are tolerated there and I don’t think any ever have been. If anyone is ever here, drop in, particularly on Sundays at either 11 inthe morning or 5:30 in the afternoon and see how the Pauline Rite was meant to be celebrated.
oldstpatricks.org

In my opinion

 

[IrishAm]

I suppose we see bashers here for the same reason we see bashers on any board. Some people just like to stir it up.

It has been my experience through the years that, on Internet boards, there are people who will make outrageous statements under several different names just to cause difficulties. Bizarre personality issues, to my mind, but they have the advantage of anonymity. For some, I fear, the Internet can be the “bathroom wall” of a modern age.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Its happening all over again. Each new thread almost always seems to gravitate to this discussion. Suffice to say, we should each be happy that we all have a niche in our Holy Mother Church where we can each be comfortable, whether it be the Novus Ordo, The Latin Mass, the Tridentine Mass, or whatever form is available. Each is the mass. None of us are any less or any more Catholic because of the Mass preference we do or do not like. What makes us less Catholic is picking and choosing that which we want to believe and not accepting everything that Holy Mother Church believes and teaches. This is our problem. Not the form of the mass we like. Calling people traditional, with each one having his or her own definition of what that may mean, certainly does not help the situation. Lets thank God for what we have and rejoice in it. Will we ever get rid of abuses, yes, when we stop being human. Utopia does not exist on earth. Our bickering over it does not bring us any closer. Do you think that if we stop bickering that maybe utopia might just be a bit closer. I would sure like to find out.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Jacafamala]

Would someone please explain to me why so many people who do not like traditional Catholicism frequent this sub-forum? Are they trying to convert traditional Catholics to less traditional Catholicism? I can understand trying to convert someone who thinks that the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite is illicit or invalid, but why would one want to convert someone who just prefers the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite? Most of the people who I know who prefer the Extraordinary Form would be happy liturgically if every Mass was just celebrated sans liturgical abuses. Why is this a bad thing?

Here’s my take on the situation: CAF gets a lot of traffic, so you have a higher percentage of hecklers who come to visit. And many borderline obnoxious or harassing posts are tolerated. So, if they’re tolerated (by the mods), then you’re gonna see more of those kinds of posts.

 

[Like]

palmas85, Thanks for posting that link to St.Patrick Church! That is one of the most beautiful Catholic Churches I’ve ever seen!!!

I’m a Traditionalist & do believe the NO is a valid Mass, BUT I am not fortunate enough to have a EF Mass to attend. And the parish I am a member of has quite a few abuses. I’ve attempted to correct some and am now a outsider who has no respect for our Bishop. There is no respectful OF Mass on this Island!

 

[I_Believe]

How can ANYONE equate traditionalism with disobedience, schism, etc.

Short answer… ignorance. They don’t know any better and are not interested in learning.

After the excommunications of H.E. Lefebvre and the four Bishops are lifted, these folks will find something else to ridicule regarding traditionalists.

Ever notice it is the traditonalists themselves that are attacked ? Tradition itself can’t be attacked without flirting with heresy, so they attack us.

 

[Like]

Here’s my take on the situation: CAF gets a lot of traffic, so you have a higher percentage of hecklers who come to visit. And many borderline obnoxious or harassing posts are tolerated. So, if they’re tolerated (by the mods), then you’re gonna see more of those kinds of posts.

Well, I for one am quite pleased with our Mods. Who wants to belong to a forum that will ban you for the slightest infraction of the rules?

I don’t think you’ll find a more dedicated website to our faith as the CAF!

 

[brotherhrolf]

Deacon Ed: Over a year ago, before the Motu Proprio, I would have been relegated to the broom closet. The discussion gravitates to this precisely because there is a whole bunch of us who got relegated to the broom closet in 1969.

I respect your service to HMC but you, me, and my friend plamas were all alive and well in New Orleans in the 60s. Were we not? I think I am the youngest of the three yet I did not graduate from high school until 1969.

It is all well and good to say that everything is relative vis-a-vis the Mass. Fair enough. I won’t dispute you. But I’m not talking just about the Mass. What about being able to make a visit to the Blessed Sacrament or being able to go to confession at Jesuit’s after school and finding a priest in the confessional at 3 pm any afternoon? Is that not part of traditional Catholicism as well?

I would to Our Lord be thankful if I could find confession as readily available as I could when I was a teenager. There is a parish here in Baton Rouge which has Wednesday evening confessions but you can line up an hour before hand and the priest may or may not appear. I always knew that there would be priests in the confessional at Jesuit’s.

My cathedral parish in downtown Baton Rouge is locked during the day because of vandalism. So much for visiting the Blessed Sacrament during the day. I was robbed at gunpoint along with our choir director with the gunman standing on the altar a few years ago. Did we have that in the 60s?

Ok, it is not just the form of Mass which makes a traditional Catholic. It is the mindset. I can no more shed the way I was raised or be anything other than who and what I am than the law allows. I was raised a traditonal Catholic and I will die a traditional Catholic. When you add the whole experience of growing up in pre-Vatican II New Orleans, Deacon, the situation gets just that much more complicated. I know my friend Palmas understands.

So, here we post on CAF. I get consistently raked over the coals for the way I was raised. Is that fair? I’ve made no bones about not wanting to return to the TLM. I am a member of a solid reverent NO cathedral parish. But I also drive 25 miles one way as I have for the last 25 years to meet my traditional Catholic needs.

Traditional Catholicism means a lot more to me than the form of Mass I attend. We have lost so much of our heritage in the last 40 years…so much.

 

[m134e5]

Would someone please explain to me why so many people who do not like traditional Catholicism frequent this sub-forum? Are they trying to convert traditional Catholics to less traditional Catholicism? I can understand trying to convert someone who thinks that the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite is illicit or invalid, but why would one want to convert someone who just prefers the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite? Most of the people who I know who prefer the Extraordinary Form would be happy liturgically if every Mass was just celebrated sans liturgical abuses. Why is this a bad thing?

The rules are very important, but it should always be evident that we follow them for the Glory of God- not just to show how much attention we can pay to even the smallest of details. Good, faithful traditional Catholics understand this- and they reflect this in how they live and how they treat others. Unfortunately, as in all groups, traditional Catholics have bad examples among them. Also, there is a very real attack on tradition by secular society and Catholics who are more interested in catering to it than in saving lost souls.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Ok, it is not just the form of Mass which makes a traditional Catholic. It is the mindset.

This echoes my sentiments exactly. It isn’t about what Mass you prefer, it’s about mindset. It’s about wanting to live the faith according to the customs and traditions of the roman rite. Novelties come and go, but the prayers, spirituality, and traditions of the Saints of old will never die.

It’s not about the Tridentine Mass or the Mass of Paul VI. They are one and the same. They are both the Sacrifice of Calvary.

You can attend the Pauline Mass exclusively and still be a traditionalist. Being a traditionalist is about valuing continuity with the past. We inherited a faith which many of our ancestors died for. The Church did not originate in the 1960’s; we have a wealth of history, tradition, spirituality which must not be forgotten.

The Holy Father is a traditionalist. The Curia is full of traditionalists. True traditionalists are nothing more than faithful Catholics who cherish the spirituality that was handed down to us.

Do not equate “traditionalists” with the SSPX or the Sede Vacantists. They claim to be following “eternal Rome” but I can guarantee that eternal Rome would never have condoned disobedience to the Roman Pontiff. These schismatics are no better than the so called “modernists” and liberals they despise. All of these groups have one thing in common: disobedience.

Furthermore, traditionalists are not nostalgics who want to turn back the clock. All we want to do is retain the unique spirituality of the Roman rite.

 

[Sarpedon]

Most of the people who I know who prefer the Extraordinary Form would be happy liturgically if every Mass was just celebrated sans liturgical abuses. Why is this a bad thing?

Personally, I have no problem with this attitude and agree with it. However, many traditionalists I’ve come across believe that the EF is superior and try to force this “truth” upon you. I find this extremely annoying.

Why? There are several reasons. First, the arguments they use are usually not very logical, which I find annoying in of itself. Second, when they try to foist what is essentially their opinion on you it comes across as extremely prideful and elitist (although I think many don’t realize this). They act as if they hold the true faith, when really all they have is a personal subjective opinion.

I’ve also come across a strange psychological mindset in many traditionalists. They seem to place an inordinate amount of attention on external practices. Progess in general is sometimes viewed as bad. Prudent judgement in other matters sometimes seems to be lacking. There seems to be many undercurrents of anger running through the mindset. They often seem judgmental of others who don’t share their opinion or are percieved as not being visibilly “holy” enough. I’ve actually been in situations where individuals have been vocally singled out in front of a large group for not being “pious” enough.

Granted, these psycological observations do not influence their objective argument (if there is one). However, they do increase the annoyance factor.

 

[SanJudas]

God save all here.

I’ve also come across a strange psychological mindset in many traditionalists. They seem to place an inordinate amount of attention on external practices.

“Inordinate” is in and of itself a pejorative term, therefore it follows that no one should place an “inordinate” amount of attention on anything. (Nothing in excess, everything in moderation.)

I have posted below a quote from a Wikipedia article on the Old Believers of Russian Orthodoxy, a group of traditionalists that broke away from the majority after liturgical reforms in the 1600’s. The article makes for very interesting reading for anyone interested in traditionalism and traditionalist groups. The section I excerpted here deals with why traditionalists place such great importance (not inordinately so) on the “externals”:

"In the past the Old Believers’ movement was often perceived as an obscure faith in rituals that led to the deaths of tens of thousands of ignorant people. Old Beliers were accused of not being able to distinguish the important from the unimportant. To many people of that time, however, rituals expressed the very essence of their faith. Old Believers hold that the preservation of a certain “microclimate” that enables the salvation of one’s soul requires not only living by the commandments of Christ, but also carefully preserving Church tradition, which contains the spiritual power and knowledge of past centuries, embodied in external forms.

The Old Believers reject the idea of contents a priori prevailing over form. To illustrate this issue, the renowned Russian historian Vasily Klyuchevsky (1841 - 1911) referred to poetry. He argued, that if one converts a poem into prose, the contents of the poem may remain intact, but the poem will lose its charm and emotional impact; moreover, the poem will essentially no longer exist. In the case of religious rituals, form and contents do not just form two separable, autonomous entities, but connect with each other through complex relationships, including theological, psychological, phenomenal, esthetic and historic dimensions.

These aspects, in their turn, play a role in the perception of these rituals by the faithful and in their spiritual lives. Considering the fact that Church rituals from their very beginning were intertwined with doctrinal truth, changing these rituals may have a tremendous effect on religious conscience and a severe impact on the faithful."

 

[Spiller]

Would someone please explain to me why so many people who do not like traditional Catholicism frequent this sub-forum? Are they trying to convert traditional Catholics to less traditional Catholicism?

I consider myself a very orthodox and traditionally-minded Catholic Christian. However some of the ignorance and bigotry that some people try to pass-off on this forum as being “traditional” is appalling. Their comments do nothing but fortify the opposition and weaken the voice of all traditionally-minded Catholics and I find that problematic.

“Convert?” Hardly! I wish they would stop representing themselves as Catholics in many cases.

I can understand trying to convert someone who thinks that the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite is illicit or invalid, but why would one want to convert someone who just prefers the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite? Most of the people who I know who prefer the Extraordinary Form would be happy liturgically if every Mass was just celebrated sans liturgical abuses. Why is this a bad thing?

I have never seen anyone try to “convert” someone who prefers the EF into someone who prefers the OF. Not one time. Sadly the reverse is a daily occurrence around here.

 

[Spiller]

Saint_Gemma, I think you will find the answer in your signature.
I’m not offended by it, nor do I think there is anything wrong with it. But my point is, many equate the word traditionalist with the words disobedience, schismatic, etc. Again, not saying you do.

Also, many are comfortable with the way things are in their own parishes, and see traditionalists as a threat, even though they are not. I attended a Saturday evening vigil Mass last week at a parish I had not been to before. It was an NO Pentecost vigil Mass. The priest began the Opening Prayer, stopped after the first few words, and said " Instead of this, let’s sing a hymn of praise". The lector then immediately led the faithful. I’ll spare everyone the details of the other lector who recited the readings, but will say her choice of dress was appalling.

Now, if I had said anything to someone after Mass about this, being a guest at this parish, I’m sure I would have been seen as a trouble maker. Like I said, some are simply comfortable with whatever their priest does and allows, right or wrong.

Sadly many here erroneously equate the term “progressive” with the words disobedience, schismatic, etc

 

[Spiller]

Many Traditional bashers are just that bashers. More than a few, in fact I would venture to say have never even attended a Traditional Mass let alone were alive when it was the norm. They repeat by and large the same stock objections that protestants, yes protestants, have used since the reformation. Luther had a whole bunch of them and if you read his writing you will see almost every objection these bashers bring up were complaints that he had. I think a lot of them are just repeating what they have heard and have little if any personal experience with Traditionals or the Traditional Mass.

Most bashers I think fall into three general groups.

One group. does it just for the heck of it and shock value. Get a rise from the traditionals. Make them mad, its fun. Its basically the same as the posts some will put up concerning Tabernacles located under stairwells, in broom closets and in one bizarre post a bathroom. They know these statements will shock and offend so they post them. Many traditional bashers fall into this group. I would guess that a large number of them are High Schoolers or younger and really don’t have much in the way of beliefs themselves. Its all for show.

A second group are people who love the Pauline Rite and think that those who don’t share that love, as they do are wrong. They often see traditionalists as being schismatics or worse and maybe not fully in communion with Rome. They can’t understand why someone would find fault with the Pauline Rite at all, let alone want to attend another type of Mass… Most of these I think are truly concerned with the state of Traditionalists souls and think that they are in danger of losing communion with the Church. All too often they believe all Traditionalists and those who prefer the Traditional Mass are all followers of Pope Michael in Topeka or something other self proclaimed Pope.

A third group are those who for whatever reason hate the Traditional Rite with a passion that is really not understandable to me. To them, the Traditional Mass keeps the Catholic Church from attaining true and full communion with the rest of Christianity. They see the Traditional Mass as an archaic expression of piety that has no place in todays world. It angers them that it is even celebrated and deeply offends their sense of ecumenism. Many liberals fall into this category because liberals by and large don’t believe in absolutes. Beliefs can change, modify and grow, develop as it were. Truth is relative to its time and place. Religion must reflect the current reality or it is wrong. In essence, it doesn’t really matter what you believe or how you worship as long as you believe in and worship something.

The Traditional Mass by its very nature is rigid, It doesn’t permit much in the way of experimentation and change. It is pretty much an absolute and the changes that have occurred in it developed slowly. That in and of itself offends liberals because in order for something to be relevant it must be accommodating of all and accepting of any change.

I happen to fall into the group of people who are happy with a reverent Mass and I am quite lucky to have in New Orleans, a Church that does just that, daily, always, a true gem of a Church, St Patricks. No abuses are tolerated there and I don’t think any ever have been. If anyone is ever here, drop in, particularly on Sundays at either 11 inthe morning or 5:30 in the afternoon and see how the Pauline Rite was meant to be celebrated.
oldstpatricks.org

In my opinion

Same with those bashers who equate all the evils of the world to “liberals” and “progressives.”