People who do not like traditional Catholicism

[consumedconvert]

We’re needed to fend off heresy at our respective universities, friend God distributes us traditionalists according to need.

Honestly, I fear elitism.

 

[DonaNobis_Pacem]

Dauphin: Actually, while the language may not be as flowery, I still find a fully Catholic meaning in the celebration of the Ordinary Form at my parish. I’ll tell you where I’m able to find it.

At the moment of consecration, the recognition of the Real Presence is so profound to me that often I find myself unable to raise my eyes even at the elevation of the host and the chalice. I KNOW it is then that, as the priest re-presents the Sacrifice of Calvary in an unbloody manner, Jesus has once more humbled Himself to come to those gathered to worship Him…His Majesty, Jesus, our Lord and King…really and truly present, though hidden under the simple forms of bread and wine. That is all I need to delve into the Catholicity of the Mass.

Now if I could work on my prayer life and my inability to avoid occasions of sin, I’d be on the right road.

 

[Dauphin]

Dauphin: Actually, while the language may not be as flowery, I still find a fully Catholic meaning in the celebration of the Ordinary Form at my parish. I’ll tell you where I’m able to find it.

At the moment of consecration, the recognition of the Real Presence is so profound to me that often I find myself unable to raise my eyes even at the elevation of the host and the chalice. I KNOW it is then that, as the priest re-presents the Sacrifice of Calvary in an unbloody manner, Jesus has once more humbled Himself to come to those gathered to worship Him…His Majesty, Jesus, our Lord and King…really and truly present, though hidden under the simple forms of bread and wine. That is all I need to delve into the Catholicity of the Mass.

Now if I could work on my prayer life and my inability to avoid occasions of sin, I’d be on the right road.

I’m very glad you find such profound meaning during the consecration.

 

[consumedconvert]

Dauphin: Actually, while the language may not be as flowery, I still find a fully Catholic meaning in the celebration of the Ordinary Form at my parish. I’ll tell you where I’m able to find it.

At the moment of consecration, the recognition of the Real Presence is so profound to me that often I find myself unable to raise my eyes even at the elevation of the host and the chalice. I KNOW it is then that, as the priest re-presents the Sacrifice of Calvary in an unbloody manner, Jesus has once more humbled Himself to come to those gathered to worship Him…His Majesty, Jesus, our Lord and King…really and truly present, though hidden under the simple forms of bread and wine. That is all I need to delve into the Catholicity of the Mass.

Now if I could work on my prayer life and my inability to avoid occasions of sin, I’d be on the right road.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I still attend the Novus Ordo from time to time, and I have no doubt that it’s completely valid, but I don’t just prefer the TLM -** I believe it’s more Catholic.**I .

How can anything that is infinite in merit, be more of anything else that is infinite in merit. This sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Dauphin]

How can anything that is infinite in merit, be more of anything else that is infinite in merit. This sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

I don’t mean that the sacrifice is of less merit. I mean simply that the prayers more clearly express the Catholic faith and the sacrificial nature of the Mass - hence, they’re more Catholic. Let’s look at a few prayers from the offertory:

“Receive, O Holy Father, almighty, eternal God, this spotless host which I, thine unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for my own countless sins, offenses, and negligences, and for all here present; as also for all faithful Christians, living or dead; that it may avail for their salvation unto life eternal. Amen.”

Here, it is made clear that the sacrifice is being offered up for the sins of the living and the dead - a very important fact sadly omitted from the Novus Ordo.

“O God, Who in creating human nature didst marvelously enoble it, and hast still more marvelously renewed it; grant that by the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His Divinity Who vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Lord, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, one God, world without end. Amen.”

This clearly enunciates the reality that we partake of God’s Divinity when we receive the Eucharist. It reminds us of our mystical union with Christ by the life of grace.

“We offer unto Thee, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, beseeching Thy clemency that, in sight of Thy Divine Majesty, it may ascend with the savor of sweetness, for our salvation and for that of the whole world. Amen.”

Again, we are offering Christ’s sacrifice for the salvation of the world. The doctrine of the Church concerning the nature of the Mass is made extremely clear. This continues in the next prayer:

"In an humble spirit, and a contrite heart, may we be received by Thee O Lord; and may our sacrifice be so offered up in Thy sight this day that it may be pleasing to Thee, O Lord God.

Come, O Sanctifier, almighty eternal God, and bless this sacrifice prepared for Thy Holy Name"

It’s not my intention to “bash” the Novus Ordo, but I can’t see how anyone can deny how dramatically the Catholicity of these prayers, along with so many others, contrasts with what is heard during the Novus Ordo.

 

[consumedconvert]

It’s not my intention to “bash” the Novus Ordo, but I can’t see how anyone can deny how dramatically the Catholicity of these prayers, along with so many others, contrasts with what is heard during the Novus Ordo.

Then what is your intention, exactly? Because it would seem that bashing the OF is exactly what you’re doing. Hold to the usage you prefer–and Praise God for it! Prefer it, praise it, etc. etc. But why this contentiousness? What is your goal here?

 

[DonaNobis_Pacem]

I’m very glad you find such profound meaning during the consecration.

After all, the Eucharist is the source and summit of our Catholic faith. Should it not be the high point of the Mass, whether we hear the words of consecration in Latin or a vernacular language? That is when we reach out and touch the very core of Catholicism.

 

[Dauphin]

Then what is your intention, exactly? Because it would seem that bashing the OF is exactly what you’re doing. Hold to the usage you prefer–and Praise God for it! Prefer it, praise it, etc. etc. But why this contentiousness? What is your goal here?

I believe that, despite the undeniable value and sanctity of the Novus Ordo, every single Catholic in the world would be better off attending the Traditional Latin Mass because of its more fully Catholic nature. I want to convince them of this because I believe it would be of benefit for their salvation, not because I have any great beef with the Novus Ordo.

 

[consumedconvert]

After all, the Eucharist is the source and summit of our Catholic faith. Should it not be the high point of the Mass, whether we hear the words of consecration in Latin or a vernacular language? That is when we reach out and touch the very core of Catholicism.

Quite! When I first converted I signed up for Eucharistic Adoration, and for a long time I couldn’t get over the fact I was in the same room with God! I, like you, was afraid to look at the Eucharist, it was some minutes before I looked at Him directly! For weeks I would get headaches and feel a bit nauseated. Now I’ve gotten used to being in the same room with Him, which is in some ways a good thing, and in some ways not a good thing.

 

[Dauphin]

After all, the Eucharist is the source and summit of our Catholic faith. Should it not be the high point of the Mass, whether we hear the words of consecration in Latin or a vernacular language? That is when we reach out and touch the very core of Catholicism.

Absolutely.

 

[consumedconvert]

I believe that, despite the undeniable value and sanctity of the Novus Ordo, every single Catholic in the world would be better off attending the Traditional Latin Mass because of its more fully Catholic nature. I want to convince them of this because I believe it would be of benefit for their salvation, not because I have any great beef with the Novus Ordo.

Then I suggest you lace your language with Grace. Talk up the EF! Don’t talk down the OF–that’s not going to help anyone attend. The EF is not celebrated at the expense of the OF In other words, these two don’t compete any more than the Latin Rite and the Byzantine Rite or Maronite Rite compete! They are different versions of the same sacred thing, Holy Mass!

I have no beef with you trying to convince others to try attending an EF Mass. Have at it! But for God’s sake, sell it, don’t do it by running down a Sacred Usage which is very precious to many of us!!

 

[brigid12]

You hit the nail on the head. The motu proprio of last year has set them in a panic. The fact that there is a “traditional catholic” sub-forum here put them in a tizzy. They were here from the beginning, but starting about January I guess, this sub-forum really became overrun with trolls and baiters.

There’s more to the question than simple liturgical “preference”…there are underlying theolgical issues involved. The Extraordinary Form of the Latin Rite, traditional folks feel, more clearly communicates many Catholic Truths. Obviously, given the reaction of the “anti-traditional” folks, they agree with this thesis. They are afraid of certain Catholic Truths being communicated more clearly…Truths these folks thought were dead and buried - or at least brushed off into an insignificant corner. The motu proprio changed this.

Therefore, the recent lifting of “restrictions” of the EF becomes a lightening rod for contention. They are here to do their best to make sure EF doesn’t catch on, and to make sure that the Catholic Truths they thought were dead and buried don’t resurface in any large number.

Hence, you’ll see hot debates incited here by non-traditionalists that center not only on the liturgy, but around things such as the nature of Salvation, the nature of the Church itself, and the mutability of dogma, etc.

It’s all related.

It’s not.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

So do you think that a Traditionalist Catholic moniker denotes a more objective view of sin to non-Traditionalists? Sort of calling “a spade a spade”?
Also, what of the priests and bishops very opposed to the TLM - not able to save as many souls, or ?

 

[EasterJoy]

I really do think that the prayers of the Traditional Latin Mass are more Catholic than those in the Novus Ordo, with much a much clearer Catholic identity steeped in tradition, and a very ancient, largely unaltered source.

I still attend the Novus Ordo from time to time, and I have no doubt that it’s completely valid, but I don’t just prefer the TLM - I believe it’s more Catholic.

Is that wrong of me? I’m sorry if it offends against your sensibilities, but I really think my position is quite well-grounded. I’m sure you can find a side-by-side comparison if you’d like.

I don’t believe I said a thing about my sensibilities being offended. Let’s get back to the topic of the thread: I said there are a number of traditional Catholics who not only prefer the EF, but who also come off as if they consider themselves more Catholic than the Pope, let alone the rest of us poor schmucks. Yet they wonder why their rhetoric is just as nauseating to some other Catholics (traditionalists included, I might add) as phrases such as “faith journey” are to them. “Why don’t they like us?” Well, listen to yourselves! Why do you think?

You can believe what you want about the EF being “more Catholic” all you like…whatever on earth you mean by that. It isn’t what the Church teaches, but as long as you admit that it is your opinion and don’t try to pass it off as the one, true faith, that is your thing.

The truth is, a more Catholic man than any I’ve read posting on this forum sits in the Chair of St. Peter. When he tells me to drop the OF for the EF, or even when my archbishop does the same in his archdiocese alone of all others, because the OF isn’t “Catholic enough” for my welfare, I’ll do it in a heartbeat. Until then, forgive me if I don’t take your word for it.

 

[Dauphin]

I don’t believe I said a thing about my sensibilities being offended. Let’s get back to the topic of the thread: I said there are a number of traditional Catholics who not only prefer the EF, but who also come off as if they consider themselves more Catholic than the Pope, let alone the rest of us poor schmucks. Yet they wonder why their rhetoric is just as nauseating to some other Catholics (traditionalists included, I might add) as phrases such as “faith journey” are to them. “Why don’t they like us?” Well, listen to yourselves! Why do you think?

You can believe what you want about the EF being “more Catholic” all you like…whatever on earth you mean by that. It isn’t what the Church teaches, but as long as you admit that it is your opinion and don’t try to pass it off as the one, true faith, that is your thing.

The truth is, a more Catholic man than any I’ve read posting on this forum sits in the Chair of St. Peter. When he tells me to drop the OF for the EF, or even when my archbishop does the same in his archdiocese alone of all others, because the OF isn’t “Catholic enough” for my welfare, I’ll do it in a heartbeat. Until then, forgive me if I don’t take your word for it.

The Pope is much more Catholic than I could ever hope to be. He’s a great, wise, and humble pastor - a true man of God.

I really don’t think, though, that this has to do with my personal spirituality. I disagree when you say that my position isn’t in line with the teaching of the Church. The Church doesn’t definitively proclaim that the Novus Ordo has more Catholic content than the Traditional Latin Mass, because that would be absurd.

I’ve already made clear what I mean by saying the Traditional Latin Mass is more Catholic. Did you see my post which contained some of the prayers of the offertory? Who can deny that the prayers of the Novus Ordo are dramatically simplified and deprived of some important Catholic content, including the explicit enunciation of the fact that the Mass is a sacrifice offered up for the sins of the living and the dead?

 

[consumedconvert]

The Pope is much more Catholic than I could ever hope to be. He’s a great, wise, and humble pastor - a true man of God.

I really don’t think, though, that this has to do with my personal spirituality. I disagree when you say that my position isn’t in line with the teaching of the Church. The Church doesn’t definitively proclaim that the Novus Ordo has more Catholic content than the Traditional Latin Mass, because that would be absurd.

I’ve already made clear what I mean by saying the Traditional Latin Mass is more Catholic. Did you see my post which contained some of the prayers of the offertory? Who can deny that the prayers of the Novus Ordo are dramatically simplified and deprived of some important Catholic content, including the explicit enunciation of the fact that the Mass is a sacrifice offered up for the sins of the living and the dead?

Again, if you feel the NO has real shortcomings, why air it in an open forum? Why not take it up with your Bishop or the appropriate dicastery of the Holy See? The Church isn’t a democracy. We can’t change a thing. When and if change comes, it will come from Rome; some changes might also come from your Bishop. But to air your grievances in an open forum does nothing but stirs up contention. We can do nothing to change the official liturgy.

Encourage us to go to the EF, but not at the expense of the OF. If you’d like to criticise it, why not take it up with the proper authority?

 

[Dauphin]

Again, if you feel the NO has real shortcomings, why air it in an open forum? Why not take it up with your Bishop or the appropriate dicastery of the Holy See? The Church isn’t a democracy. We can’t change a thing. When and if change comes, it will come from Rome; some changes might also come from your Bishop. But to air your grievances in an open forum does nothing but stirs up contention. We can do nothing to change the official liturgy.

Encourage us to go to the EF, but not at the expense of the OF. If you’d like to criticise it, why not take it up with the proper authority?

I don’t see any harm in trying to convince people I’m right. Maybe one of them will ascend to the hierarchy one day

 

[consumedconvert]

I don’t see any harm in trying to convince people I’m right. Maybe one of them will ascend to the hierarchy one day

Hmmm, maybe you’re not looking at the forums hard enough.

Divisiveness is great harm.

 

[Dauphin]

Hmmm, maybe you’re not looking at the forums hard enough.

Divisiveness is great harm.

Christ said He came not to bring peace, but the sword.

 

[consumedconvert]

Christ said He came not to bring peace, but the sword.

Yes, but not through his own Body.

“That they may be one, as We are One…”