People who do not like traditional Catholicism

[Freshman88]

I have a modest proposal.

Perhaps some soul-searching is in order. Concerning those Catholics who find that they do not have the interior maturity to attend either the OF or the EF humbly, who find in their preferred form a temptation towards spiritual pride, pride over what is in reality the gift of finding great consolation and edification in one form of the Mass: perhaps they should ask themselves if they should not restrict themselves to the other form for a time in way of penance, as the choice which is both equally valid and which poses less of an occasion of sin. They might consider doing so until their gratitude for both forms is in keeping with the riches that each possesses and their charity towards those brothers and sisters who find greater consolation in the other form increases. Likewise, those who think they can categorize their brothers and sisters in holiness, fidelity, humility, or any other virtue, based on which Mass they prefer or what form of private prayer they use.

The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing. If gratitude and charity for the sake of holy unity do not fall squarely under the heading of “the main thing”, I don’t know what does.

Just a thought.

Easter Joy, you are not a priest and you certainly should not be handing out spiritual advice nor penance.

Most of the Traditionalists on this board attend the OF on a regular basis, so really the penance would be redundant.

Nor has anyone classified their fellow Catholics, if a person takes a liturgical argument as a personal insult, perhaps they would do best to stay out of the argument.

 

[EasterJoy]

Easter Joy, you are not a priest and you certainly should not be handing out spiritual advice nor penance.

Most of the Traditionalists on this board attend the OF on a regular basis, so really the penance would be redundant.

Nor has anyone classified their fellow Catholics, if a person takes a liturgical argument as a personal insult, perhaps they would do best to stay out of the argument.

I handed no one a penance. I suggested that some might* just consider *whether their preferred form tempts them towards spiritual pride. It is not out of place for a layperson to make such a suggestion. If anyone else decided to do it or not, I would never know it. They would be taking it on themselves, or discerning for themselves that it was not necessary or would not be edifying.

As for personal insults, look back over these posts: sneaky, silly, childish, blindly obedient, superiority complexes, self-righteous arrogance, immature… these are not the words of purely liturgical arguments.

 

[Freshman88]

As for personal insults, look back over these posts: sneaky, silly, childish, blindly obedient, superiority complexes, self-righteous arrogance, immature… these are not the words of purely liturgical arguments.

Agreed.

 

[EasterJoy]

Agreed.

We agree again! We obviously have differing views on a lot of things, brother, but maybe we’ll be OK in the end.

If we’re going to be praising God together for all of eternity, I suppose that is a given…that is, if mercy reigns and I am still recognizable after Purgatory!

 

[Freshman88]

We agree again! We obviously have differing views on a lot of things, brother, but maybe we’ll be OK in the end.

If we’re going to be praising God together for all of eternity, I suppose that is a given…that is, if mercy reigns and I am still recognizable after Purgatory!

Recognizable? I’ll be happy to be in one piece .

As long as we earnest and truthful in our search, everything will be good in the end.

What I am growing tired of is the stupid silly attacks that keep going back and forth, especially from certain members. I admit to biting back once in a while, but it’s only because those certain members are seeking a rise out of each other.

 

[FAB]

What I am growing tired of is the stupid silly attacks that keep going back and forth, especially from certain members. I admit to biting back once in a while, but it’s only because those certain members are seeking a rise out of each other.

Very good point. When I reply to a post I work to be respectful to others of differing opinons. I do value those opinions, but more than once mine have been met with animosity. A lesson needs to be taken from Pope Benidict and his Ecumenical efforts to reach out to other faiths, including Islam. We as Catholic Christians have much more in common than differences. What we have most in common is the Eucharist. We commonly share this sacrafice and from it our discussions of faith should grow. With many “traditionalist” as defined by this site, I would have to agree to disagree. My own definintion is one of the faithful who embraces not only sacred scripture and traditon, following the teachings of the Magisterium, with a developed conscience with those teachings in the center.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Freshman88]

Pope Benidict and his Ecumenical efforts to reach out to other faiths, including Islam.

lol, well other than this, I agree.

 

[FAB]

lol, well other than this, I agree.

A recent story on meetings between Church Leaders and Islamic Leaders indicated an agreement was met on the use of faith and reason as well as individual freedom and dignity.
Blesses are the peace makers…

Peace,
FAB

 

[Freshman88]

A recent story on meetings between Church Leaders and Islamic Leaders indicated an agreement was met on the use of faith and reason as well as individual freedom and dignity.
Blesses are the peace makers…

Peace,
FAB

Conversion to Christ and His most Holy Church would be the quickest route to peace.

 

[FAB]

Conversion to Christ and His most Holy Church would be the quickest route to peace.

All in God’s time. We as Catholic Christians need to lead the way.

 

[Freshman88]

All in God’s time. We as Catholic Christians need to lead the way.

Amen.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

All in God’s time. We as Catholic Christians need to lead the way.

We can never lead the way so long as bickering and rudeness is apparent among ourselves. If I were a non Catholic and saw the things posted on this forum among fellow Catholics about one another, it would convince me to look elsewhere. We have got to start with ourwelves before we can convince others.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[ethelzguy]

We can never lead the way so long as bickering and rudeness is apparent among ourselves. If I were a non Catholic and saw the things posted on this forum among fellow Catholics about one another, it would convince me to look elsewhere. We have got to start with ourwelves before we can convince others.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

:tiphat:

 

[Dauphin]

Listen, then, to His Holiness, our wise and humble pastor: The existence of two forms of our one Mass should in no way be used as an excuse for division, for the opening of the EF to wider use was intended as a means for increasing our unity!** Both forms are holy and valuable, and gratitude demands that both should be treated as such. **

I don’t question the authority of the Second Vatican Council or the value of the new Mass. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say, however, that the extraordinary form of the Mass contains superior, and more Catholic, prayers. The New Mass does not contradict the old. It is, however, in many ways inferior to it. That doesn’t make people who attend it less Catholic or mean that it is harmful to the faith. It simply means that the TLM more clearly communicates the nature of the Mass as a sacrifice and more fully enunciates Catholic doctrine.

If you disagree, present an argument to refute that which I have already presented.

 

[Dauphin]

I handed no one a penance. I suggested that some might* just consider *whether their preferred form tempts them towards spiritual pride. It is not out of place for a layperson to make such a suggestion. If anyone else decided to do it or not, I would never know it. They would be taking it on themselves, or discerning for themselves that it was not necessary or would not be edifying.

As for personal insults, look back over these posts: sneaky, silly, childish, blindly obedient, superiority complexes, self-righteous arrogance, immature… these are not the words of purely liturgical arguments.

I’m not going to take it back. It’s just plain silly not to attend the Traditional Latin Mass because you don’t like the people. There’s nothing sinful about pointing that out.

 

[EasterJoy]

If you disagree, present an argument to refute that which I have already presented.

I’m not a liturgist or a theologian, and besides that, I feel no need to rank the two forms up against each other. I can say that after many years of having attended the NO, I am quite aware that that form of the Mass is truly a sacrifice offered for sins. You don’t have to hear the word “sin” to know what “do not consider what we truly deserve” means!

Still, if there was no need in the Church not met by the EF, then why was the OF brought forth? And if the EF is so clearly superior to the OF, then why is the Holy Father not suggesting that the Latin be re-considered to become the ordinary form, making the vernacular the extraordinary form? I imagine there reasons which are pastoral, and have nothing to do with theoretical comparisons of the two. Nevertheless, pastoral reasons are real reasons, and may often be more compelling than theoretical ones.

On this, you may fairly differ. The fact remains that our opinions are only that: opinions. The ultimate duty to discern the best pastoral course is not ours.

I’m not going to take it back. It’s just plain silly not to attend the Traditional Latin Mass because you don’t like the people. There’s nothing sinful about pointing that out.

Oh, you misunderstand me. If a Catholic finds that the EF is full of just that selection of fellow Catholics who try their patience the most, that might be exactly the Mass they should go out of their way to attend. For if you are only kind, patient, and so on to the people you like and who like you, what merit is there in that? Besides, you might find that the EF totally enhances your understanding of the OF, even if you don’t make the EF your regular Mass. I would go so far to say that we should consider it a “red flag” any time we feel a great internal resistance to an established Catholic spiritual practice we have not tried. It may not be personal opinion talking, but temptation away from a substantial good.

Nevetheless, if one of us finds that we present an obstacle to our brothers or sisters, that should be of concern to us. Was it not silly for Christians to have scruples over meat in Paul’s time? Yet he refrained from meat around them, for in making accomodation to their weakness, he hoped to remove any obstacle that could be found in him.

We of course do not confine ourselves merely to avoiding sin. We look for ways to spread the Gospel and strengthen the faith of our brothers and sisters. If that means doing without a legitimate good, there are times it is commendable to do without, for love is the greatest of gifts, the way that surpasses all others.

Love rejoices not in what is wrong, but in the truth, yes! Still, this must always be done patiently, kindly, and never rudely. This is all very elementary Catholicism, don’t you think?

 

[Cat]

That’s okay Ethelzguy, be as immature as you want to be. The fact of the matter is that Dauphin and I attend the finest academic institutions in Canada, and we are doing an enormous amount of good by representing Catholic values in and outside of the classroom in a very secular environment.

If you can associate that with the tower of Babylon, I really don’t know what to say, except, grow up.

How many converts have come into the Catholic Church throught your witness?

 

[Cat]

I don’t question the authority of the Second Vatican Council or the value of the new Mass. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say, however, that the extraordinary form of the Mass contains superior, and more Catholic, prayers. The New Mass does not contradict the old. It is, however, in many ways inferior to it. That doesn’t make people who attend it less Catholic or mean that it is harmful to the faith. It simply means that the TLM more clearly communicates the nature of the Mass as a sacrifice and more fully enunciates Catholic doctrine.

If you disagree, present an argument to refute that which I have already presented.

This is your opinion only.

When my husband and I first began attending Mass (NO), we were evangelical Protestants. We recognized right away that the Mass was the Sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus. I don’t know what you’re talking about. Is it possible that you deliberately close your eyes to what you don’t want to see plainly? To us and many other converts, the Mass as “Sacrifice” is about as plain and obvious as our own noses on our faces. You can’t miss it unless you are sleeping or in the bathroom throughout the Mass.

I’m not sure what you mean about a Mass enuciating Catholic doctrine. Over and over again, traditionalists in this forum have stated to me and other ex-Protestants that 'dearie, the Holy Mass is not a teaching service, it’s a Sacrifice."

I disagree with them, of course. When we first started attending Mass, one of the priests often used his homily to explain various aspects of Catholic dogma. It was very useful for my husband and me, who knew very little about Catholicism.

And how can a prayer be “superior?” There is no such thing. The prayer of a small toddler whispering, “Help my mommy” is just as welcome to the Lord as the most eloquent utterings of the greatest saints. You may personally prefer a more eloquent, literary prayer, but many others (like me) prefer plain and simple conversation with God. A “superior” prayer doesn’t exist, unless it is the Our Father, which Our Lord Himself taught us to pray.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I The New Mass does not contradict the old. It is, however, in many ways inferior to it. .

How can that which is infinite in merit, be inferior to anything? Please explain.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[HashemEchad]

As you know, I’m an Orthodox Jew. However, in the late 1970s when I was a not-so-religious Jew, I had an opportunity to attend several Tridentine Masses, under the auspices of the ORCM and also, SSPX (they were being held in motels back then!)

From what I know of traditional Jewish liturgy and Temple worship, I recognized the Tridentine Mass as being the closest among the Christian liturgies to the ancient Jewish Temple worship.

The modernized Catholic Mass reminds me far more of the Lutheran services I used to sit in on when I worked for the Lutheran Church in America’s publishing house (early 1980s, before they merged with the ELC to form the ELCA).

In the traditional Catholic Mass, the priest and people both face the altar. This is in line with the way sacrifices were offered in the Jewish Temple. And remember, to Catholics, the Mass is “an unbloody sacrifice” being renewed from Calvary.

It is natural for a priest offering a sacrifice to face the altar, and the people are behind him, also facing the same direction.

The modernized Catholic Mass reminds me more of a communal meal, not a sacrifice…akin to how Protestants view their services: as a service, not a sacrifice.

I really do believe the modern Catholic Mass downplays the Catholic concept of the Mass as a sacrifice. Its very obvious to me, and I’m not even Catholic.