People who do not like traditional Catholicism

[japhy]

And how can a prayer be “superior?” There is no such thing. The prayer of a small toddler whispering, “Help my mommy” is just as welcome to the Lord as the most eloquent utterings of the greatest saints. You may personally prefer a more eloquent, literary prayer, but many others (like me) prefer plain and simple conversation with God. A “superior” prayer doesn’t exist, unless it is the Our Father, which Our Lord Himself taught us to pray.

How can that which is infinite in merit, be inferior to anything?

I would suggest you read this essay on the differences between the two forms of Mass (written in 2003).

As for how one prayer can be superior to another, the essay quotes Pope Paul VI himself:
“It is here that the greatest newness is going to be noticed, the newness of language… We are parting with the speech of the Christian centuries; we are becoming like profane intruders in the literary preserve of sacred utterance… We have reason indeed for regret, reason almost for bewilderment. What can we put in the place of that language of the angels? We are giving up something of priceless worth… What is more precious than these loftiest of our Church’s values?” (General Audience of Nov. 26, 1969, 8-9)

Objectively speaking, Pope Paul VI has wholly answered any question as to which rite is superior. He calls the old rite the “language of angels,” “something of priceless worth,” and the “loftiest of our Church’s values.” If it is priceless, and if it is the loftiest, then there is nothing loftier, nothing worth more. Having established the answer, the rest of this writing will seek to provide examples that substantiate Pope Paul VI’s admission.
Take this example from the essay: First, the three forms of the Penitential Rite in the Ordinary Form:
“I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.” (NOM, Confession Form A); or

“Lord, we have sinned against you: Lord, have mercy. Lord, show us your mercy and love, and grant us your salvation.” (NOM, Confession Form B); or

“You were sent to heal the contrite: Lord have mercy. You came to call sinners: Christ have mercy. You plead for us at the right hand of the Father: Lord have mercy.” (NOM, Confession Form C)
Now the Penitential Rite in the Extraordinary Form:
“I confess to almighty God, to blessed Mary, ever virgin, to blessed Michael the Archangel, to blessed John the Baptist, to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the saints, and to you, brethren, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, and deed: [he strikes his breast three times, saying] through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore I beseech the blessed Mary, ever virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, all the saints, and you, brethren, to pray to the Lord our God for me.” (TR, Confiteor)

 

[Freshman88]

How can that which is infinite in merit, be inferior to anything? Please explain.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

I do not think that we have been discussing the authenticy/merit of the mass, many traditionalist attend the NO. Rather what we have been discussing is the masses ability to better communicate Church teaching through its prayers and its faithfulness to our liturgical tradition.

 

[Freshman88]

As you know, I’m an Orthodox Jew. However, in the late 1970s when I was a not-so-religious Jew, I had an opportunity to attend several Tridentine Masses, under the auspices of the ORCM and also, SSPX (they were being held in motels back then!)

From what I know of traditional Jewish liturgy and Temple worship, I recognized the Tridentine Mass as being the closest among the Christian liturgies to the ancient Jewish Temple worship.

The modernized Catholic Mass reminds me far more of the Lutheran services I used to sit in on when I worked for the Lutheran Church in America’s publishing house (early 1980s, before they merged with the ELC to form the ELCA).

In the traditional Catholic Mass, the priest and people both face the altar. This is in line with the way sacrifices were offered in the Jewish Temple. And remember, to Catholics, the Mass is “an unbloody sacrifice” being renewed from Calvary.

It is natural for a priest offering a sacrifice to face the altar, and the people are behind him, also facing the same direction.

The modernized Catholic Mass reminds me more of a communal meal, not a sacrifice…akin to how Protestants view their services: as a service, not a sacrifice.

I really do believe the modern Catholic Mass downplays the Catholic concept of the Mass as a sacrifice. Its very obvious to me, and I’m not even Catholic.

We also retain the use of a liturgical language .

Hey Hashem, if you ever do fall in apostasy, we’ll always have a seat ready for you . (heh, I have my tongue in cheek, i’m well aware of your feelings).

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I do not think that we have been discussing the authenticy/merit of the mass, many traditionalist attend the NO. Rather what we have been discussing is the masses ability to better communicate Church teaching through its prayers and its faithfulness to our liturgical tradition.

A mass is not inferior to anything in any way. If it is infinite, it is infinite. To try to measure a mass is the epitome of arrogance.
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed b

 

[Freshman88]

A mass is not inferior to anything in any way. If it is infinite, it is infinite. To try to measure a mass is the epitome of arrogance.
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed b

Then why did we create a new use? Was the EF not infinite enough?

I suppouse however, it’s just easier to accuse me of arrogance.

Really, how many more times do I have to be insulted?

 

[HashemEchad]

We also retain the use of a liturgical language .

Hey Hashem, if you ever do fall in apostasy, we’ll always have a seat ready for you . (heh, I have my tongue in cheek, i’m well aware of your feelings).

As Grandpa Munster used to say, “HAH! it’ll NEH-ver happen!” (am I dating myself by mentioning him??)

Apostasy wouldn’t work for me anyway…I have bad knees and I know you TC’s like to kneel. A LOT.

 

[Freshman88]

As Grandpa Munster used to say, “HAH! it’ll NEH-ver happen!” (am I dating myself by mentioning him??)

Apostasy wouldn’t work for me anyway…I have bad knees and I know you TC’s like to kneel. A LOT.

You know what they say, the shortest path to God, is from our knees to the floor

ha! Who’s grandpa Munster???

 

[ethelzguy]

Now the Penitential Rite in the Extraordinary Form:
“I confess to almighty God, to blessed Mary, ever virgin, to blessed Michael the Archangel, to blessed John the Baptist, to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the saints, and to you, brethren, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, and deed: [he strikes his breast three times, saying] through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore I beseech the blessed Mary, ever virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, all the saints, and you, brethren, to pray to the Lord our God for me.” (TR, Confiteor)

Explain to me, please, what difference it makes if I list them seperately, or if I say “and I ask the Blessed Mary, ever virgin, ALL the angels and the saints, and to you my brothers and sisters…”

If I say “to ALL the saints”, doesn’t that cover JTB, Peter and Paul?

 

[ethelzguy]

Then why did we create a new use? Was the EF not infinite enough?

I suppouse however, it’s just easier to accuse me of arrogance.

Really, how many more times do I have to be insulted?

I think you attract that yourself.

 

[ethelzguy]

“I confess to almighty God, to blessed Mary, ever virgin, to blessed Michael the Archangel, to blessed John the Baptist, to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the saints, and to you, brethren, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, and deed: [he strikes his breast three times, saying] through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore I beseech the blessed Mary, ever virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, all the saints, and you, brethren, to pray to the Lord our God for me.” (TR, Confiteor)

Another question, maybe you can help me out here. Why am I confessing specifially to Mary, Michael, JTB, Peter and Paul to begin with? Asking their intercession down the page makes sense to me, but aren’t we supposed to confess to God, a priest, and who we have wronged?

Perhaps this is a bit off topic, but since someone brought it up…

 

[Zarathustra89]

As you know, I’m an Orthodox Jew. However, in the late 1970s when I was a not-so-religious Jew, I had an opportunity to attend several Tridentine Masses, under the auspices of the ORCM and also, SSPX (they were being held in motels back then!)

From what I know of traditional Jewish liturgy and Temple worship, I recognized the Tridentine Mass as being the closest among the Christian liturgies to the ancient Jewish Temple worship.

The modernized Catholic Mass reminds me far more of the Lutheran services I used to sit in on when I worked for the Lutheran Church in America’s publishing house (early 1980s, before they merged with the ELC to form the ELCA).

In the traditional Catholic Mass, the priest and people both face the altar. This is in line with the way sacrifices were offered in the Jewish Temple. And remember, to Catholics, the Mass is “an unbloody sacrifice” being renewed from Calvary.

It is natural for a priest offering a sacrifice to face the altar, and the people are behind him, also facing the same direction.

The modernized Catholic Mass reminds me more of a communal meal, not a sacrifice…akin to how Protestants view their services: as a service, not a sacrifice.

I really do believe the modern Catholic Mass downplays the Catholic concept of the Mass as a sacrifice. Its very obvious to me, and I’m not even Catholic.

Wow

 

[EasterJoy]

Another question, maybe you can help me out here. Why am I confessing specifially to Mary, Michael, JTB, Peter and Paul to begin with? Asking their intercession down the page makes sense to me, but aren’t we supposed to confess to God, a priest, and who we have wronged?

Perhaps this is a bit off topic, but since someone brought it up…

If you look at the text, you’re off a little. You confess to God and those present that you have, in fact, sinned. You would never recite the Kyrie if you hadn’t sinned, right? So there’s no surprise on that count. You ask Our Lady, the angels, the saints, and all present to pray for you:

**I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;

and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.
May almighty God have mercy on us,
forgive us our sins,
and bring us to everlasting life.
Amen.**

 

[CradleCath]

Actually, all of the indications were that the Church was growing at a remarkable rate, and then, immediately after the Council, all of the indicators took a dramatic plummet, including a 41% reduction in seminarians only 5 years after the Second Vatican Council.

---

Please don’t say “faith journey” again. I may vomit.

---

Ranks right up there with “Gathering Space & presider”, doesn’t it.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

Dauphin;3702682:

Actually, all of the indications were that the Church was growing at a remarkable rate, and then, immediately after the Council, all of the indicators took a dramatic plummet, including a 41% reduction in seminarians only 5 years after the Second Vatican Council.

---

Please don’t say “faith journey” again. I may vomit.

---

Ranks right up there with “Gathering Space & presider”, doesn’t it.

The worst is the “Spirit of Vatican II”, though I personally think that the term is often misused. If you actually look at the documents of Vatican II, you see several references to preserving Latin as the language of the Church, but none about removing altar rails.

 

[EasterJoy]

As you know, I’m an Orthodox Jew. However, in the late 1970s when I was a not-so-religious Jew, I had an opportunity to attend several Tridentine Masses, under the auspices of the ORCM and also, SSPX (they were being held in motels back then!)

From what I know of traditional Jewish liturgy and Temple worship, I recognized the Tridentine Mass as being the closest among the Christian liturgies to the ancient Jewish Temple worship.

The modernized Catholic Mass reminds me far more of the Lutheran services I used to sit in on when I worked for the Lutheran Church in America’s publishing house (early 1980s, before they merged with the ELC to form the ELCA).

In the traditional Catholic Mass, the priest and people both face the altar. This is in line with the way sacrifices were offered in the Jewish Temple. And remember, to Catholics, the Mass is “an unbloody sacrifice” being renewed from Calvary.

It is natural for a priest offering a sacrifice to face the altar, and the people are behind him, also facing the same direction.

The modernized Catholic Mass reminds me more of a communal meal, not a sacrifice…akin to how Protestants view their services: as a service, not a sacrifice.

I really do believe the modern Catholic Mass downplays the Catholic concept of the Mass as a sacrifice. Its very obvious to me, and I’m not even Catholic.

The Jews present were not all commanded to eat the flesh of the sacrifices at the Temple, were they? Unlike the ancient temple sacrifices, the Mass is a commemoration of the Passover of the Lord. Like the first Passover, those present are commanded to eat the flesh of the lamb, by whose blood they are saved from death.

This is not just an ordinary “communal meal” or “service”, any more than Passover is for Jews. It is a ritual meal, yes, but a meal eaten in fulfillment of commandment.

 

[HashemEchad]

The Jews present were not all commanded to eat the flesh of the sacrifices at the Temple, were they? Unlike the ancient temple sacrifices, the Mass is a commemoration of the Passover of the Lord. Like the first Passover, those present are commanded to eat the flesh of the lamb, by whose blood they are saved from death.

This is not just an ordinary “communal meal” or “service”, any more than Passover is for Jews. It is a ritual meal, yes, but a meal eaten in fulfillment of commandment.

I was always under the impression that (in Catholic theology), the Mass is a renewal of the one sacrifice of Calvary, not a commemoration.

 

[Dauphin]

How can that which is infinite in merit, be inferior to anything? Please explain.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

You’ve asked this question before, and I’ve answered it. I am referring to the prayers of the Mass, not the merit of the sacrifice.

 

[EasterJoy]

I was always under the impression that (in Catholic theology), the Mass is a renewal of the one sacrifice of Calvary, not a commemoration.

Memorial is a better word, but it has to be understood in the sense of making the one Sacrifice present, not in looking back at a past event. As for the aspect of sacrificial banquet, this if from *Sacramentum Caritatis *(boldface mine):

…In the calling of the Twelve, which is to be understood in relation to the twelve tribes of Israel, and in the command he gave them at the Last Supper, before his redemptive passion, to celebrate his memorial, Jesus showed that he wished to transfer to the entire community which he had founded the task of being, within history, the sign and instrument of the eschatological gathering that had its origin in him. Consequently, every eucharistic celebration sacramentally accomplishes the eschatological gathering of the People of God. For us, the eucharistic banquet is a real foretaste of the final banquet foretold by the prophets (cf. Is 25:6-9) and described in the New Testament as “the marriage-feast of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7-9), to be celebrated in the joy of the communion of saints

 

[EasterJoy]

Dauphin;3702682:

Actually, all of the indications were that the Church was growing at a remarkable rate, and then, immediately after the Council, all of the indicators took a dramatic plummet, including a 41% reduction in seminarians only 5 years after the Second Vatican Council.

---

Please don’t say “faith journey” again. I may vomit.

---

Ranks right up there with “Gathering Space & presider”, doesn’t it.

What, you don’t journey? You have already arrived, then?

OK, OK, if it makes you vomit, that is reason enough to find a different way to say it.

 

[Dauphin]

This is your opinion only.

When my husband and I first began attending Mass (NO), we were evangelical Protestants. We recognized right away that the Mass was the Sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus. I don’t know what you’re talking about. Is it possible that you deliberately close your eyes to what you don’t want to see plainly? To us and many other converts, the Mass as “Sacrifice” is about as plain and obvious as our own noses on our faces. You can’t miss it unless you are sleeping or in the bathroom throughout the Mass.

In my twelve years of Catholic schooling, I was never instructed that the Mass was a Sacrifice, or that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. The Novus Ordo didn’t make it obvious to me.

I’m not sure what you mean about a Mass enuciating Catholic doctrine. Over and over again, traditionalists in this forum have stated to me and other ex-Protestants that 'dearie, the Holy Mass is not a teaching service, it’s a Sacrifice."

I disagree with them, of course. When we first started attending Mass, one of the priests often used his homily to explain various aspects of Catholic dogma. It was very useful for my husband and me, who knew very little about Catholicism.

I’m referring to what’s contained in the Mass itself, not the sermon. The prayers of the Traditional Latin Mass clearly and repeatedly identify the Mass as a sacrifice offered up for the sins of the living and the dead. This is omitted from the Novus Ordo.

And how can a prayer be “superior?” There is no such thing. The prayer of a small toddler whispering, “Help my mommy” is just as welcome to the Lord as the most eloquent utterings of the greatest saints. You may personally prefer a more eloquent, literary prayer, but many others (like me) prefer plain and simple conversation with God. A “superior” prayer doesn’t exist, unless it is the Our Father, which Our Lord Himself taught us to pray.

I disagree.

The prayer “Help my mommy” would be perfectly appropriate for a child. However, if I said that prayer to God, it would be a mockery. I’m capable of offering much clearer intentions, so I should.

Likewise, the Mass cannot reflect the lowest common denominator. It must contain prayers of the highest nature - our very best. The prayers should fully clarify the intention of the priest and the faithful while completely enunciating Catholic doctrine about the nature of the sacrifice which is being offered.