People who do not like traditional Catholicism

[ethelzguy]

My goodness, calm down.

That’s a nice theory about the TLM, and a popular one. The problem with it is that a great number of people posting here in defense of the OF either haven’t been to an EF and have never so much as read the translated text of it OR they rather like it.

The NO has been around 40 years, not 100. There are plenty of us who have been to more EF/TLM/Old Latin Masses than we can remember.

You can’t claim that lack of interest in the TLM is out of ignorance. Many of us are still of sound mind and memory.

 

[consumedconvert]

You object to your posts being referred to as “yada, yada, yada”? Point well-taken…but you have to admit, in spite of whatever points you made, you didn’t answer the original question.

This was the post that started the thread:
Would someone please explain to me why so many people who do not like traditional Catholicism frequent this sub-forum?

It’s been 20 pages by now. Did I miss the post where you addressed that one?

I really don’t know. If I find someone who doesn’t like traditional Catholicism, I’ll have to ask him.

 

[ethelzguy]

I really don’t know. If I find someone who doesn’t like traditional Catholicism, I’ll have to ask him.

:tiphat:

 

[eelpis]

Or it should be changed to "Bashing of the post-Vatican II Church.

There’s extremes to any issue or topic

Our pope has done that already. real blasting …

 

[ethelzguy]

Our pope has done that already. real blasting …

I hardly think that the Pope’s commentary has exactly “blasted” Pope Paul VI and the post-V2 Church.

He may have shared commentary to support older traditions, but that hardly constitutes “blasting”. But if that delusion makes you happy, carry on.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

I hardly think that the Pope’s commentary has exactly “blasted” Pope Paul VI and the post-V2 Church.

He may have shared commentary to support older traditions, but that hardly constitutes “blasting”. But if that delusion makes you happy, carry on.

From the 2000 book by then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI), entitled The Spirit of the Liturgy:

“After the Second Vatican Council, the impression arose that the pope really could do anything in liturgical matters….[But] the pope’s authority is bound to the Tradition of faith, and that also applies to the liturgy."
“By incessantly inventing new Eucharistic Prayers… we have sunk farther and farther into banality.”
“Now the priest—the ‘presider’ as they prefer to call him—becomes the real point of reference for the whole liturgy.”
“People try to reduce [the priest’s] role by assigning all kinds of liturgical functions to different individuals and entrusting ‘creative’ planning of the liturgy to groups of people who like to, and are supposed to, ‘make their own contribution.’ Less and less God is in the picture.”
“A church without the Eucharistic Presence is somehow dead.”
“A faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling would be sick at the core.”
“Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.”

 

[CradleCath]

My goodness, calm down.

That phrase (calm down) has already been attempted by EthelsGuy & it didn’t work for him, either. Truth be told, an emotionally upset or angry person seldom writes a point by point explanation saying why they consider the Tridentine Mass a very in-depth celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass…AND…a more thorough representation of the whole of Catholicism. Those who base their choices on their emotions are more apt to be “uncalm”.

That’s a nice theory about the TLM, and a popular one.

 

[elt1956]

Ah, ok. I understand it better now; thank you for clarifying. People, being accustomed to the “level of ritual” (for lack of a better phrase) in the O.F. (and are comfortable with it) can be somewhat surprised (and perhaps confused) by the “level of ritual” in the E.F. Does that sound about right?

Right on.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Now, & hopefully you’ll answer these questions…WHY would an intelligent, searching, growing Catholic not attend a Mass that is part of the Tradition & culture of Catholicism & has been allowed after 40 yrs. of suppression. I would think that one would WANT to see what “all the fuss is about”. Why would an intelligent Catholic, informed Catholic speak against a Mass & those who favor it, without, at least, investigating it?

I had to respond to this section of your post because it is my story. I spent a lifetime in the post VII Church and I loved it. I was an EM, a lector and a choir member for most of my life. I studied theology on the collegiate and graduate level and read all the modern theologians, the VII documents and everything else about the Church I could get my hands on. When I saw an ad in a newspaper about a Latin Mass about 30 minutes from my home, my curiosity wouldn’t let go until I attended it. I expected to find a bunch of bitter old people, ultra fundamentalist younger people and an atmosphere of negativity. To my surprise, I found a welcoming community. I was greeted by an usher who lent me a missal, and he led me to sit by his wife so I would have someone to help me. After Mass, these kind folks introduced me to others and to Father who spent a few minutes asking me questions and encouraging me to “come again, it gets easier!”
I still attend that chapel, and the only negative thing that has ever happened was that for a time there was a group of ladies there who appointed themselves the “Clothing Police”-but they’ve gone now to a Sede church.

My fellow parishioners and my Priests do not behave in any of the negative ways that posters describe here, and it saddens me that so many either have experienced such negative things or that they hold such negative opinions of us. I have heard no such negative judgements in my parish about those who choose the OF. Liturgical abuses can happen in either the OF or the EF and I pray for those who have been exposed to those things at their parish.

 

[EasterJoy]

That phrase (calm down) has already been attempted by EthelsGuy & it didn’t work for him, either. Truth be told, an emotionally upset or angry person seldom writes a point by point explanation saying why they consider the Tridentine Mass a very in-depth celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass…AND…a more thorough representation of the whole of Catholicism. Those who base their choices on their emotions are more apt to be “uncalm”.

AND, a true one. Many liberal Catholics are AFRAID of the Tridentine Mass & what it represents & requires. People who are indifferent about a subject seldom go to the trouble of finding an aol. message board & thread about the issue, nor do people who simply prefer something else. Nope, I see FEAR coming from those who constantly post against Traditional Catholics.

I’m sorry that you think that you must “defend” the Novus Ordo. I, for one, believe that it is a valid Mass, prayed by people who know no other Mass & know even less about the history of their faith. The bolded words above verify that. Traditional Catholics & the Tridentine Mass are vilified by people who know little to nothing about either.

Now, & hopefully you’ll answer these questions…WHY would an intelligent, searching, growing Catholic not attend a Mass that is part of the Tradition & culture of Catholicism & has been allowed after 40 yrs. of suppression. I would think that one would WANT to see what “all the fuss is about”. Why would an intelligent Catholic, informed Catholic speak against a Mass & those who favor it, without, at least, investigating it?

What would that “nonsense” be? That they personally find this psuedo Novus Ordo lacking in the tenets of Catholicism? That they are searching Catholics, who don’t even pretend that they are done growing in the faith? That they believe that there’s more to experience & know?

Would that “nonsense” be? Words that express their discontent with a Mass that they find banal & trite? BTW., because I find the “everydayness” of the Novus Ordo distressing…just as I found the first 20 years of living through the experimental Masses that featured anything that might cause “everyman” (both Catholic & non-Catholic) to embrace it, does not mean that I condemn you for loving this Mass. That is your choice.

However, don’t forget that I, who have been robbed of a choice for 40 yrs., have been given one by Pope Benedict, Himself & I have a right to express my point of view, now. I’ve been through both extremes with the Novus Ordo, from the outrageous… dancing to the tune of “Blowin’ in the Wind”, honkey-tonk pianos & priests who brought suitcases & “tin can telephones” to Mass as props when they read the Gospel of Mark: “Go into all the world and proclaim the good news to the whole creation.”…to the extremely boring that I’ve been attending this past 10 years.

BTW, Had the ONE properly celebrated (ONE parish of the** nine **parishes in my city celebrated Novus Ordo Mass as Vatican II intended it to be celebrated)…had that ONE authentic Novus Ordo Mass been allowed to continue without interference, I would probably be just as content as you are, but, of course it wasn’t.

A couple of more points I have to make. Many of you act as if the “occasional abuses” found in the easily adapted Novus Ordo are unusual. For many of us, they have not been unusual but the norm. Newman centers at the Universities in my state have been inundated with, not only a Mass that is an insult to God, but one that is USED to promote the liberal agenda. That’s been hard, indeed, for those of us who have worked so hard to send our children to college & prayed so hard that they wouldn’t lose their Catholicism while they were there.

stlouiscatholic.blogspot.com/2007/09/praise-dance-at-st-alphonsus-liguori_27.htmlwith

PS. This is long enough. If it wasn’t, I’d address the points you brought up about my posts, hair shirts, etc., etc. Suffice it to say, you are mistaken & I hope that before you criticize Traditional Catholics again, you will make the effort to pray “their” Mass with an open mind, as most of us have prayed “yours”.

No, really. The all-caps “shouting” doesn’t help at all. Take that for what it’s worth.

So, you want to know “WHY would an intelligent, searching, growing Catholic not attend a Mass that is part of the Tradition & culture of Catholicism & has been allowed after 40 yrs. of suppression. I would think that one would WANT to see what “all the fuss is about”. Why would an intelligent Catholic, informed Catholic speak against a Mass & those who favor it, without, at least, investigating it?”

Let me be frank with you: Concerning my “investigations” at this sub-forum, I can tell you this: I am far less likely to seek out the EF after having read the posts here than I was before I came here…and by “posts”, I mean the posts of the adherents of the EF. Really, I’ve tried, but it has gotten positively scary. OTOH, I know lots of Catholics in their mid-60’s and beyond who go to daily Mass, say the rosary every day, go to confession regularly, and fast on Wednesdays and Fridays who don’t want the TLM back. I know which group I want to be like…it is the reverent NO crowd, not the EF people.

Many of the adherents of the EF apparently can’t read the text of the NO and get that it is the Sacrifice of the Mass. I got that in first grade! It seems that the same ones can’t turn to shake the hand of another Catholic at the very moment before they are to receive the Holy Communion that makes them one and see Christ. They see a distraction.

Many don’t think that a boy is going to want to be a priest if he has to serve Mass with a girl…never mind that the chancellor of that priest’s archdiocese might be a woman. Their memory is so short that they don’t remember that the Mass was ever rattled through as quickly as possible. They don’t remember that little kids used to sing things like “Harold has a snotty nose!” at the top of their lungs, thinking that was what was being sung.

They don’t seem to remember any high school kids hanging around the back of church, being as irreverent as they could get away with without incurring corporal punishment when they got home. They smear ecumenism, apparently because they don’t remember the Catholic and the Protestant kids insulting and fighting one another over how they understood…what, the love of God? (Yeah, those were the good old days. Bring those back.)

They seem to think we’ve all been using Latin at Mass since Pontius Pilate washed his hands. They don’t remember that it was Latin that was the vernacular, that Greek that was the holy language used in the Church, even when writing a Letter to the Romans. Anybody who doesn’t want the TLM to be the OF again must be either ignorant or indifferent, and if that includes the Pope, then so be it. That’s what the attitude seems to be.

I could go on, but I can tell you one thing for sure: the only thing that I’m afraid of is that you guys are unwittingly doing everything in your power to make certain that the EF never really catches on. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. This place doesn’t even have enough sugar to make a palatable sweet and sour. That’s too bad.

As I said, take that for what it’s worth. It won’t do any good to argue with me about what my impressions have been. I got the impressions that I got. I don’t think I’m alone. If you think it is worth nothing, that’s your choice. In that case, I can see why you’d prefer just to post among yourselves.

Whatever.

 

[CradleCath]

Fitswimmer;3729622]I had to respond to this section of your post because it is my story. I spent a lifetime in the post VII Church and I loved it. I was an EM, a lector and a choir member for most of my life. I studied theology on the collegiate and graduate level and read all the modern theologians, the VII documents and everything else about the Church I could get my hands on. **When I saw an ad in a newspaper about a Latin Mass about 30 minutes from my home, my curiosity wouldn’t let go until I attended it. **

Good for you. That’s what I expect from Catholics who are serious about their faith. Probably because I was often reminded by the good nuns of yesteryear that my faith “is 2,000 yrs. old, so don’t expect to learn all there is to know during your childhood”.

I have also read the documents from Vatican II (& some of the documents about the documents!!) As I said in my earlier message, the Novus Ordo…said as **I **think that Vatican II intended it to be said could have been an inspirirational Mass. But, that is not the issue here. The issue here, in this thread, is stereotyping both Traditional Catholics & the Tridentine Mass, without even giving it (or us) a chance.

expected to find a bunch of bitter old people, ultra fundamentalist younger people and an atmosphere of negativity.

I’m sorry that you expected that & can’t help but wonder why?? Myself, I’m a pretty typical “today” grandmother of 8. Still a vital part of the work force at 66 yrs. of age & probably will continue to be until/if poor health interferes. My husband is also very active, though he won’t hike with me & our Labrador Retriever, he has taken on a whole new part-time “career”…restoring old homes. He’s 69 & actually does the physical work on these homes, himself.

This past weekend, after the 12:30 Tridentine Mass yesterday (not a great time slot…but I’m not complaining) we spent the afternoon at the ball park watching our 11 yr. old Grandson’s baseball tournament, eating hot dogs, drinking soda & getting quite a sunburn. Mustn’t forget camping with the rest of the grandkids & grown children that evening. There were 17 of us in all & that’s immediate family. We all pitched our tents on the other side of our lake & ate our meals over the campfire. Fun!!!

I’m telling you this because I want you to know that the stereotypical Traditional Catholic, that many on here seem to see, doesn’t exist. In our parish, we are young & old & in between, some with young children, some wear chapel veils, some (including myself) don’t. We are high schoolers & senior citizens. Some of us had a cookout this weekend with beer & brats, other’s ate lobster & drank wine in fine resturants. The ONLY thing that we truly have in common is a desire to learn everything there is to know about our faith.

To my surprise, I found a welcoming community. I was greeted by an usher who lent me a missal, and he led me to sit by his wife so I would have someone to help me. After Mass, these kind folks introduced me to others and to Father who spent a few minutes asking me questions and encouraging me to “come again, it gets easier!”

He is right. I attended the TLM daily for the first 20 yrs. of my life. Still, when I attended my first Tridentine Mass after a 40 yr absence., I was close to lost. We’ve been attending regularly now for 4 months & I can walk in late (only once, that was yesterday morning…17 people showering in three bathrooms takes a lot of time) & find my place right away.

QUOTE]I still attend that chapel, and the only negative thing that has ever happened was that for a time there was a group of ladies there who appointed themselves the “Clothing Police”-but they’ve gone now to a Sede church

.

[sigh] One does wonder if the clothing that other people wear to Mass is the biggest problem in their lives. If so, I’d say the “group of ladies” need to be counting their blessings rather than worrying about the dress of others. .

My fellow parishioners and my Priests do not behave in any of the negative ways that posters describe here, and it saddens me that so many either have experienced such negative things or that they hold such negative opinions of us. I have heard no such negative judgements in my parish about those who choose the OF. Liturgical abuses can happen in either the OF or the EF and I pray for those who have been exposed to those things at their parish.

Thank you for that. If one sees enough offensive behavior, spread over enough years, it does tend to be quite discouraging.

 

[CradleCath]

No, really. The all-caps “shouting” doesn’t help at all. Take that for what it’s worth.

CradleCath

: “WHY would an intelligent, searching, growing Catholic not attend a Mass that is part of the Tradition & culture of Catholicism & has been allowed after 40 yrs. of suppression. I would think that one would WANT to see what “all the fuss is about”. Why would an intelligent Catholic, informed Catholic speak against a Mass & those who favor it, without, at least, investigating it?”

Easter Joy:

**Let me be frank with you: Concerning my “investigations” at this sub-forum, I can tell you this: I am far less likely to seek out the EF after having read the posts here than I was before I came here…and **by “posts”, I mean the posts of the adherents of the EF. Really, I’ve tried, but it has gotten positively scary.

Sorry, but this is as far as I read in your message. It’s evident that you have actually decided your feelings about a Catholic Mass by “investigating” an aol. message board. IMO., that’s really weak & tells me all I want to know about your opinion.

 

[consumedconvert]

Perhaps at this point in the conversation it would be helpful to refine our terminology and review a few things.

1. Recriminations of “EF lovers” and “OF followers” have been flying back and forth among some, as if everyone who loves the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church is a legalistic old bitter prude who hates the OF, or as if every person who loves the Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church is a hard-headed modernest bigot who is lazy an ignorant about his faith.

I do not believe that is really what people here believe. I cannot accept it. Such divisve, backbiting attitudes are unworthy of any Catholic, and I refuse to believe that so many here who say things offensive to their brothers in Christ are really sincere in what they say.

If you must recriminate, at least be accurate and don’t lump all lovers of a liturgy into one group. Someone made a negative reference to the “EF lovers”. Our Pope is no doubt a lover of the Extraordinary Form (as one may infer from his liberalizing its use), as were very many Saints of old, and I don’t believe anyone here means to accuse our Holy Father or our Catholic forebears of being bitter OF haters. If you mean to make a reference to those who attack the OF, please say “those who attack the OF,” not “EF lovers.”

1. Similarly, defining each other or ourselves as “Traditional Catholics” or “Traditionalists” is not only divisive, it is grossly innaccurate. Every practicing Catholic alive is in some since a Traditionalist, or he is not a practicing Catholic. Those who attend the Ordinary Form believe also in Tradition, and very many are very well educated an enthusiastic about (small t) traditions, such as Gregorian chant, neogothic architecture, etc. To attack “Traditionalists” is worse than useless, because the term as used in this forum is so imprecise. For example, how many EF masses must one attend before one becomes a “Traditionalist?” Must one define oneself as a “Traditionalist” in order to be one? Is someone who prefers the EF a “Traditionalist” even if he rejects the label?
2. It is libelous to refer to those who choose to attend the Ordinary Form as ignorant of the Faith. There are very many educated and self-educating Catholics who attend the OF exclusively. No one has a right to tell a Catholic that they must attend an Extraordinary Form Mass, any more than anyone has the right to tell a Catholic that they must attend an Ordinary Form Mass, or that he should attend the EF, or that he should attend the OF, or, for that matter, that he should attend a Chaldean Rite liturgy. Among the different types of Masses in the CC there are different styles, different languages, different types of beauty–if I could, I would attend all of the various types of Masses of the RCC! But if one chooses never to stray from the Ordinary Form of the Mass, he has received the same Christ that those attending the Extraordinary Form have received. He is in no way inferior for attending his preferred form of the Mass to the exclusion of all ofhter forms of Mass.
3. Sometimes when I am preparing to oppose someone, it helps me to remember that Christ died for that person, and that if I had the love of Christ, I would be willing to die for that person too; then, I reflect that I should treat them accordingly. It also helps to realise that no one ever has the right to excuse himself for rude or divisive or hurtful behavior because “that’s just the way the Forums are.” Saying something nasty to a Brother in Christ on the forums is just as much a sin as saying it to his face.

Of course there have been some very good commentary in these threads, and real charitable posts; and that’s encouraging.

 

[EasterJoy]

Sorry, but this is as far as I read in your message. It’s evident that you have actually decided your feelings about a Catholic Mass by “investigating” an aol. message board. IMO., that’s really weak & tells me all I want to know about your opinion.

 

[GemmaRose]

…Oh, PUHLEEZE, Gemma Rose - I said I didn’t like women inside the altar - nothing about "unclean"ness.
No, but you said it with the same patriarchal, chauvinistic attitude that women are oh so tired of hearing.

Perhaps you’re too young to remember that pre-Vatican II - ***women were ***always inside the altar - but the ONLY women allowed / given the privilege of going beyond the altar rail were the good sisters who maintained and cleaned altar cloths, etc. And I would think it’s an honor. I said nothing about “uncleanness” of women.

Women have a place. God has given them the most suitable role, if possible, and that’s motherhood - not the priesthood.
And here you have summed up the Church’s apparent attitude: women are acceptable when we’re either barefoot and pregnant or when we have an iron in our hands.

But the fear here is that altar girls, women participating in Holy Communion distribution, etc., is not only unnecessary but I think is leading to the door opening to much more (as in female priests - otherwise, why?).
Are you so insecure that you think a female altar server is going to hijack the altar???

We owe priests respect for they are imitating Our Lord at the Last Supper and Calvary - at every Mass. Our Lord ***did not have one female apostle amongst the Twelve ***- many followers may have been women but the Twelve Apostles, to whom He assigned the priesthood - were not women. It’s not a gender competition. It’s what was insituted by Christ - to the Twelve. When He said, “Do this in Memory of Me.” or “Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them” He spoke to the Twelve men.
And He treated women with more dignity and respect in His 3 years of public ministry than His Church has in the past 2,000 years.

The story of Adam and Eve - following woman’s creation - tells it all. You give an inch - they take a yard - they eat an apple and upset the applecart! It was a woman who convinced a man at the beginning of time - and you know the rest of the story. Now, we have women again - wanting more. Maybe, the Genesis story about the apple was God’s lesson / warning for us - for future times - I don’t know. It seems that men still don’t see it. And women just don’t get it.
And I suppose that Eve jammed the apple down Adam’s throat?

But in Church, it’s the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and people have forgotten what it’s all about – Calvary - not a gender competition. The only women there were those weeping at the foot of the Cross.
I’ve underlined your last sentence because this is exactly what people with your sentiments seem to forget. Other than John, who ELSE was at the foot of the Cross? Women! And if it wasn’t for women on that first Easter morning, the Apostles might still be hiding in the Upper Room. Thank the Lord that He sent them the Holy Spirit!

(sorry for getting on a soapbox)
Just remember that those who climb upon soapboxes might be in danger of falling off.

 

[GemmaRose]

Since you mentioned Calvary, maybe it should be predominantly the females who are allowed to stand so near and assist during the Sacrifice of the Mass, since only St. John had it in him to stand as near to Our Lord as the holy women did at the Crucifixion. Whose work did he have to teach his Apostles to do, at the Last Supper? Women’s work. And who did our Risen Lord appear to first? A woman.

It was a man who blamed a woman for his sin, a woman who blamed the snake for hers.

Martha asked our Lord to require her sister Mary to attend to women’s work, rather than to sit at his feet. Our Lord told her, “Mary has chosen the better part, and shall not be deprived of it.” Those children who are drawn by the Holy Spirit to serve at the altar have chosen the better part, too. They should not be deprived of it because others are too proud or lazy to join them.

What a beautiful, and TRUE, post! :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[elt1956]

Good for you. That’s what I expect from Catholics who are serious about their faith. Probably because I was often reminded by the good nuns of yesteryear that my faith “is 2,000 yrs. old, so don’t expect to learn all there is to know during your childhood”.

I have also read the documents from Vatican II (& some of the documents about the documents!!) As I said in my earlier message, the Novus Ordo…said as **I **think that Vatican II intended it to be said could have been an inspirirational Mass. But, that is not the issue here. The issue here, in this thread, is stereotyping both Traditional Catholics & the Tridentine Mass, without even giving it (or us) a chance.

I’m sorry that you expected that & can’t help but wonder why?? Myself, I’m a pretty typical “today” grandmother of 8. Still a vital part of the work force at 66 yrs. of age & probably will continue to be until/if poor health interferes. My husband is also very active, though he won’t hike with me & our Labrador Retriever, he has taken on a whole new part-time “career”…restoring old homes. He’s 69 & actually does the physical work on these homes, himself.

This past weekend, after the 12:30 Tridentine Mass yesterday (not a great time slot…but I’m not complaining) we spent the afternoon at the ball park watching our 11 yr. old Grandson’s baseball tournament, eating hot dogs, drinking soda & getting quite a sunburn. Mustn’t forget camping with the rest of the grandkids & grown children that evening. There were 17 of us in all & that’s immediate family. We all pitched our tents on the other side of our lake & ate our meals over the campfire. Fun!!!

I’m telling you this because I want you to know that the stereotypical Traditional Catholic, that many on here seem to see, doesn’t exist. In our parish, we are young & old & in between, some with young children, some wear chapel veils, some (including myself) don’t. We are high schoolers & senior citizens. Some of us had a cookout this weekend with beer & brats, other’s ate lobster & drank wine in fine resturants. The ONLY thing that we truly have in common is a desire to learn everything there is to know about our faith.

He is right. I attended the TLM daily for the first 20 yrs. of my life. Still, when I attended my first Tridentine Mass after a 40 yr absence., I was close to lost. We’ve been attending regularly now for 4 months & I can walk in late (only once, that was yesterday morning…17 people showering in three bathrooms takes a lot of time) & find my place right away.

.

[sigh] One does wonder if the clothing that other people wear to Mass is the biggest problem in their lives. If so, I’d say the “group of ladies” need to be counting their blessings rather than worrying about the dress of others. .

Thank you for that. If one sees enough offensive behavior, spread over enough years, it does tend to be quite discouraging.

Hello Cradle Catholic. I enjoyed your exchange with fitswimmer. I am very happy to see such sensible people posting their opinions on a Traditional Forum.

When I first started reading/posting on the CAF, I unfortunately went to a Traditional Forum about the Latin Mass where the so called Trads. gave the impression they “really” did know more than the Pope and would brook no one posting that disagreed with them. I haven’t, so far, found many bashers of TLM on the NO Forums as I found TLM believers bashing NO and those who preferred this structure of the Mass. This bashing of the so called “liberals” really turned me off. As you said in your post, if the clergy had really followed the “spirit” of Vatican II, we may have had a Mass in the NO that all could agree was beautiful. I have no argument with the NO Mass in my Parish, but understand there have been many liberties taken by many clergy. And that is truly a shame.

I too am a Cradle Catholic and have experienced the beauty of TLM. I would also like to see it return in full force, but not to the detriment of the NO that so many have become used to. We have to remember the TLM was before most of this generation were born. It does not surprise me they prefer the form of the Mass they experienced throughout their Catholic lives. Peace.

 

[CradleCath]

Hello Cradle Catholic. I enjoyed your exchange with fitswimmer. I am very happy to see such sensible people posting their opinions on a Traditional Forum.

When I first started reading/posting on the CAF, I unfortunately went to a Traditional Forum about the Latin Mass where the so called Trads. gave the impression they “really” did know more than the Pope and would brook no one posting that disagreed with them. I haven’t, so far, found many bashers of TLM on the NO Forums as I found TLM believers bashing NO and those who preferred this structure of the Mass. This bashing of the so called “liberals” really turned me off. As you said in your post, if the clergy had really followed the “spirit” of Vatican II, we may have had a Mass in the NO that all could agree was beautiful. I have no argument with the NO Mass in my Parish, but understand there have been many liberties taken by many clergy. And that is truly a shame.

I too am a Cradle Catholic and have experienced the beauty of TLM. I would also like to see it return in full force, but not to the detriment of the NO that so many have become used to. We have to remember the TLM was before most of this generation were born. It does not surprise me they prefer the form of the Mass they experienced throughout their Catholic lives. Peace.

Thanks so much for this nice post. You’ve done all that I ask …which is not to declare a Mass or it’s followers “bad” because of a few offensive people on an aol. message board & to give something & someone a try before you condemn it or them.

 

[Fitswimmer]

If you go looking for the negative in things, you will surely find it. I could attend any liturgy with a negative attitude and I would find “evidence” to prove my point. If you go to the OF expecting abuses and lack of reverence, you’ll find it even at the most reverent and non-abusive liturgies. If you go to the EF looking for negativity and bitterness, you’ll find “evidence” of that too.

Of course there is some truth to the stereotypes about people who attend both the EF and the OF-but in my experience in both parishes those stereotypes are NOT the rule.

 

[ethelzguy]

If you go looking for the negative in things, you will surely find it. I could attend any liturgy with a negative attitude and I would find “evidence” to prove my point. If you go to the OF expecting abuses and lack of reverence, you’ll find it even at the most reverent and non-abusive liturgies. If you go to the EF looking for negativity and bitterness, you’ll find “evidence” of that too.

Bravo