People who do not like traditional Catholicism

[pnewton]

I wonder how many people were watching my parents at their Novus Ordo enter with their one child…exactly one child…and “wondering”…

Such scandal.

It is exactly this type of speculation that is addressed by the Lord when he admonishes us not to judge others. Perhaps this particular temptation is more pronounced among those traditionalist who make judgement a lifestyle. My wife and I enter the Church with one son. I hate to think of all those who look at us askance, but then we do not attend a TLM, so there is a not any of this type of judgemental mentality.

His name is John, BTW, after John the Baptist, for like Elizabeth, my wife was told she would never be able to conceive. I would embrace a second miracle, but am thankful primarily for my miracle son.

 

[ethelzguy]

The impression that I’m getting from CAF posters is:

EF = pro-life, anti-ABC, anti-gay marriage, anti-liberal theology (e.g., Christ didn’t really rise from the dead, the spirit of what He taught is alive today in the world). etc.

OF = pro-abortion, pro-contraception, pro-homosexual rights, pro-liberal theology, etc.

This makes no sense at all!

I think it’s foolish to assume that someone will hold certain political and theology viewpoints just because of their Mass preference.

For that matter, I think it’s foolish to assume that just because someone espouses orthodox theology that they will also hold political conservative views.

We just can’t pigeon-hole people.

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[GemmaRose]

It seems to me that we are mixing mindsets here.

The impression that I’m getting from CAF posters is:

EF = pro-life, anti-ABC, anti-gay marriage, anti-liberal theology (e.g., Christ didn’t really rise from the dead, the spirit of what He taught is alive today in the world). etc.

OF = pro-abortion, pro-contraception, pro-homosexual rights, pro-liberal theology, etc.

This makes no sense at all!

I personally think that there are probably TLMers who are also “liberal” in their politics, their theology, etc. It seems to me that some of the stuff that goes on in a TLM would appeal to a “New Age” mindset–the Latin, the chanting, etc. It’s so “spiritual” compared to the staid, unadorned NO Mass. Goths in particular would enjoy a Latin Mass.

A Mass preference does not determine preferences in politics and theology. I know plenty of Catholics who attend the OFs in our diocese, and these people are plenty conservative in both their politics and their theology.

And I know plenty of people who attend the OF who have huge families and still adding on, just as I know people who attend the TLM in our city who have two kids.

I think it’s foolish to assume that someone will hold certain political and theology viewpoints just because of their Mass preference.

For that matter, I think it’s foolish to assume that just because someone espouses orthodox theology that they will also hold political conservative views. I know PLENTY of people who are Catholic who consider themselves loyal to the Church theologically who are totally liberal when it comes to their politics, and I know even more people who are opposed to various Catholic teachings who are extremely conservative politically.

We just can’t pigeon-hole people.

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

Oh Cat! I don’t think I’ve ever disagreed with any of your posts! How eloquently you have defended those of us true Catholics who happen to prefer the N.O. AND agree with Catholic teaching.

Thank you.

 

[japhy]

Goths in particular would enjoy a Latin Mass. …] We just can’t pigeon-hole people.

 

[EasterJoy]

And I know plenty of people who attend the OF who have huge families and still adding on, just as I know people who attend the TLM in our city who have two kids.

I know that large families are often held up as a badge of Catholic fidelity–and as child #7, I can say that those couples do deserve pats on the back!–but it is hurtful to presume that couples who have few (or no) children would not have happily welcomed more. Remember, too, that faithful Catholics are taught to refrain from most of the methods that fertility clinics have to offer.

We have only two children, from one pregnancy. If they both become priests, I will be thrilled.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

wow. I started to say some more, but after reading the last several posts, I really could not add to your responses. You even used the expression I was going to use, i.e.,** eloquence** at its finest. I am impressed and I thank you all for such responses. They spoke volumes.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[JReducation]

I don’t think it is Traditional Catholicism that people don’t like. I think who people don’t like are those who in the name of Traditional Catholicism judge others as being less Catholic and less reverent than those who kneel for communion or wear a veil to mass.

People resent those who in the name of Traditional Catholicism feel that they have the liberty to say that someone like John Paul II should never be canonized and allowed to be venerated by the faithful as a saint of the Catholic Church.

It offends people that others assume to read their conscience and their knowledge of the faith because they show a preference for the OF, all in the name of Traditional Catholicism.

Many people who remained faithful to the Church during the last 40 years, despite that their beloved Gregorian mass was suspended for years, resent being told that the SSPX is holier than they are or more faithful to Christ.

There is a rogue group within Traditional Catholicism who is taking the same approach to their Catholicism as radical gay groups, radical Muslims, radical Black movements and radical women’s movements and other In-Your-Face movements. This makes this group a very unpleasant group to share with.

This is what people don’t like. People like tradition. They enjoy remembering the good old days. Some even enjoy celebrating an EF mass. Converts such as me, who did not grow up with the Gregorian mass find it beautiful and very telling. I find that it tells me a great deal about Church history, besides being a very beautiful and solemn form of worship.

However, as much as I enjoy talking about the symbols, rituals, prayers, gesturs, and the EF as a whole and their roots, I would not enjoy someone in my face telling me that I am worshipping God in an inferior manner because I attend a parish that has only OF masses.

The problem is not traditional Catholicism; the problem is the rogue traditionalists. I use the term rogue, because I’ve met many who attend the EF and are the most gentle and non-confrontational people I know. Usually they are young; excited about a new experience and converts from Protestantism who are looking for a form of worship that really separates them from their Protestant past. Having come from Judaism, I prefer the OF, because it is very similar to our Seder meal.

Keep the traditions and stop the rogue traditionalists assault on everyone else and we may be able to discuss the beauty of our liturgy in both forms.

JR

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Very well said. and very good observations.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Spiller]

It seems to me that we are mixing mindsets here.

The impression that I’m getting from CAF posters is:

EF = pro-life, anti-ABC, anti-gay marriage, anti-liberal theology (e.g., Christ didn’t really rise from the dead, the spirit of what He taught is alive today in the world). etc.

OF = pro-abortion, pro-contraception, pro-homosexual rights, pro-liberal theology, etc.

This makes no sense at all!

I personally think that there are probably TLMers who are also “liberal” in their politics, their theology, etc. It seems to me that some of the stuff that goes on in a TLM would appeal to a “New Age” mindset–the Latin, the chanting, etc. It’s so “spiritual” compared to the staid, unadorned NO Mass. Goths in particular would enjoy a Latin Mass.

A Mass preference does not determine preferences in politics and theology. I know plenty of Catholics who attend the OFs in our diocese, and these people are plenty conservative in both their politics and their theology.

And I know plenty of people who attend the OF who have huge families and still adding on, just as I know people who attend the TLM in our city who have two kids.

I think it’s foolish to assume that someone will hold certain political and theology viewpoints just because of their Mass preference.

For that matter, I think it’s foolish to assume that just because someone espouses orthodox theology that they will also hold political conservative views. I know PLENTY of people who are Catholic who consider themselves loyal to the Church theologically who are totally liberal when it comes to their politics, and I know even more people who are opposed to various Catholic teachings who are extremely conservative politically.

We just can’t pigeon-hole people.

Well said…

I am beginning to believe that most of those who commit the errors you mention do so out of abject ignorance and not malice. In a way that’s good, but it’s also quite sad.

I draw very strong parallels between the people you are describing and fundamentalist Protestants. Their faith if often based not on a love for God but on frustration for their former religion(s.) Their new religion – “traditional Catholicism” is nothing more than a very crude form of cafeteria Catholicism.

Ponder that a bit…

 

[CradleCath]

Very well said. and very good observations.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

WOW!! I just got back to this board & am amazed at the reactions I found. I’m sorry that some of you (not you personally, Deacon Ed…but “you” in general), took the reference to two children so personally & I did not mean it that way. I was trying to make my message as gentle as possible & still get my point across that Deacon Ed’s words**…“None of us follow a different dogma” are not always true**. The fact that someone started a thread named **“People who do not like traditional Catholicism” **ia proof of the fact that we don’t all think alike re our faith.

As for dogma, which is defined as “a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church”…well many Catholics do not hold that the Church teaching re artificial birth control is correct. When I said that “I wonder” about the younger Catholics & this teaching, once again, I was trying to be nice. I don’t “wonder”, I know. My husband & I have been married 48 yrs. About the time we celebrated our 35th anniversary, our pastor asked us to be group leaders for the marriage encounter weekends our parish sponsored. I learned quite a bit during those years we served for those encounters.

#1. Among the young Catholics…ages late 20’s & 30’s…VERY FEW had ever read “Humana Vitae”, had ever been required to read it either in CCD. classes or in parochial schools.

Over half of those present had never heard of it.

#2. Approximately 1/3 of the men had had a vasectomy & were not yet 36 yrs. old. The wives, whose husbands hadn’t had surgery, took the pill.

#3. There was no “big deal” about the use (or non-use) of ABC. in their minds. Yes, they were told of the Church’s teaching re ABC in Marriage Prep. It just didn’t matter to them & these were Catholics who attended Mass every Sun.

Now, it’s not up to me to judge them & I didn’t then & don’t now. There have been times when I questioned the Church on this teaching, myself, though I followed it. However, I CAN say that they don’t agree with my “brand” of Catholicism in this area. Of course, they all go to the Novus Ordo Mass…it’s all they know & I’d wager most of them don’t even know there is now an option.

So, I’ll say once again….I don’t think that “we all follow the same dogma”. There are two schools of thought in the Catholic Church right now…one is liberal, the other traditional. That’s all I said before & it’s what I say now.

 

[CradleCath]

=Spiller;3832714]Well said…

I am beginning to believe that most of those who commit the errors you mention do so out of abject ignorance and not malice. In a way that’s good, but it’s also quite sad.

I draw very strong parallels between the people you are describing and fundamentalist Protestants. Their faith if often based not on a love for God but on frustration for their former religion(s.) Their new religion – “traditional Catholicism” is nothing more than a very crude form of cafeteria Catholicism.

“Their NEW religion”? “former faith”??

Ponder that a bit.

Naw, Don’t think I will. I’m not too interested in the opinions of those who can separate their faith from their vote & I think that the poster you are replying to, is fine with that. So…:tiphat:

 

[JReducation]

Now, it’s not up to me to judge them & I didn’t then & don’t now. There have been times when I questioned the Church on this teaching, myself, though I followed it. However, I CAN say that they don’t agree with my “brand” of Catholicism in this area. Of course, they all go to the Novus Ordo Mass…it’s all they know & I’d wager most of them don’t even know there is now an option.

So, I’ll say once again….I don’t think that “we all follow the same dogma”. There are two schools of thought in the Catholic Church right now…one is liberal, the other traditional. That’s all I said before & it’s what I say now.

This is what I was talking about in an earlier post. It’s not traditional Catholicism that people don’t like. It’s statements such as these that make people angry. These are In Your Face statements.

You can’t assume that all those who use birth control attend the OF any more than you can assume that those who attend the EF do not use birth control.

Birth control is a very contraversial issue for many people, regardless of their preference in the form of the liturgy.

Niether form encourages it. Such a statement would suggest that the OF would tolerate it, which is not true.

There have always been many schools of thought in the Catholic Church and some that we consider traditional today and veyr holy, were considered very radical, liberal and even suspicious at one time.

Francis of Assis was considered a radical by the Vatican. Had it not been for a dream that the Pope had, the Franciscans would not exist. Now Franciscan spirituality and mysticism forms part of the classical mystical theology of the Church.

Teresa of Avila was taken before the Inquisition for being too liberal and too lenient on Jews and Protestants. Today she is the official Doctor of Mystical Theology of the Church.

Bl. John XXIII was considered to be too liberal for his time and age. Today he’s one miracle short of being a saint, which rumour has it that Benedict may dispense with. I don’t know this from personal experience. I heard this among some clerics who recently came back from Rome, not sure who their source was.

The point is that liberal and conservatism are two sides of the same coin. What is liberal at one time, becomes conservative when something new arrives. It took Mother Teresa four years to found her Society of Charity, because the Vatican thought that she was too liberal because she did not want to dress as a nun, but as a Hindu woman and did not want to live in a convent, but in houses with the poor.

Those terms are very relative. But they do make people angry when thrown in their faces. It is not traditional Catholicism, it’s the language that some people use which almost suggests that “we are holier than you” or “we are right and you are wrong.”

No one likes that.

JR

 

[CradleCath]

=JReducation;3833566]This is what I was talking about in an earlier post. It’s not traditional Catholicism that people don’t like. It’s statements such as these that make people angry. These are In Your Face statements.

The following statement, which I copied & pasted from my post is not meant to be “in your face”:
Of course, they all go to the Novus Ordo Mass…it’s all they know & I’d wager most of them don’t even know there is now an option.
Perhaps in your parish, the majority of Catholics go to the TLM., but not here. The people I’m describing, Catholics who practice ABC, are now between the ages of 40 & 50, busy with their careers & children & the NO. IS all they know. They have not had the opportunity to become familiar with anything else & most don’t spend time on a Catholic message board. I don’t know why you would find fault in my statement…it’s the truth.

One more thing, the Motu Proprio has NEVER been mentioned at any of Novus Ordo Masses in my city. It just isn’t discussed… On the “outside bulletin board” at the parish I now attend, it isn’t even listed. The board reads:

Sat. vigil Mass: 6PM
Sun. Masses: 8AM & 10AM

The TLM. is held at 12:30, but not “advertised”. It is TRUE that most Catholics in my city are not aware of this Mass unless they find it on the internet.

You can’t assume that all those who use birth control attend the OF any more than you can assume that those who attend the EF do not use birth control.

I didn’t say “ALL”, I said “most” & I mentioned several Church teachings about which “Catholics don’t all follow the same dogma”, abortion & gay sexual acts are two of them. However most of you who have responded to my message have zeroed in on the division re ABC. Do you believe that those who see nothing wrong with Artificial Birth Control mostly choose to attend the Traditional Latin Mass. I really hope that you’ll answer this question.

Birth control is a very contraversial issue for many people, regardless of their preference in the form of the liturgy.

See above.

Niether form encourages it. Such a statement would suggest that the OF would tolerate it, which is not true.

My statement would suggest no such thing. In my area the majority of Catholics attend the NO. Therefore, it stands to reason that the majority of dissident Catholics attend the NO.
And, yes, there is some difference in mindset about this teaching & others, between MOST of us who attend the TLM. &** most** of those who attmd the NO. This does not mean that every couple who uses ABC. attend the NO…

There have always been many schools of thought in the Catholic Church and some that we consider traditional today and veyr holy, were considered very radical, liberal and even suspicious at one time

.

In answer to the first emboldened sentence YES!! That’s exactly what I have been saying. We do not ALL agree upon issues & we do not all “practice the same dogma”.
BTW., I am not speaking of “schools of thought”, but of dogma. We do not all believe the same way re abortion, gay sexual acts & NFP. These issues are defined Church doctrine & will never change, cannot change.

Those terms are very relative. But they do make people angry when thrown in their faces. It is not traditional Catholicism, it’s the language that some people use which almost suggests that “we are holier than you” or “we are right and you are wrong.”

No one likes that.

It seems to me that many of this board’s progressive Catholics are very defensive & I don’t understand that. “Your” Mass has been open to you for 40+ years, it has never been suppressed, nor will it be. You are among the majority. I, on the other hand, do not mention to my brothers & sisters that I am attending a Latin Mass. I’ve never dared to discuss my Tradtional mind-set with them, for it would become a joke with which to tease me & I really don’t want my religious beliefs to become that. It’s fine when they jovially call me a “clean freak”, for I can counter back with a smile & a smart crack "You’d be a great candidate for HGTV’s “clean up my space” program. But, I’m not going to give them “fodder” about my faith. I don’t really think that you have been through much of this…what can almost be called discrimination…for, as I said earlier, NO. Catholics are in the majority. So, why so judgmental about my kind of faith, why so defensive about your own. We, if…as you say, are simply two sides of the same coin…should be able to discuss our differences without references to “holier than thou Traditionals” &
“less-than Catholic Liberals”.

 

[Conservative]

Hi everyone! I am new to the website and have been lurking around for awhile. I found this thread quite interesting. I was raised a “southern” Methodist and just recently converted to Catholicism. (My wife and I have been attending mass for over 25 years.) Since I have been reading a LOT of the posts on this site and after reading through this thread, I feel I am a traditionalist eventhough I have not been Catholic for as long as most of you. Probably traditionalist in the sense of being older, ha ha. I am, in fact, very surprised at some of the posts from the younger Catholics and how they respond to the non-Catholics. It seems to me as a scripture “sluggfest”. It makes me a bit uneasy. The positive side of it is that I can use the stated references in my continued learning experience into the Catholic faith. God bless!

Welcome, Rogerh, to Holy Mother the Church -
You know, it doesn’t take a Catholic to be a traditionalist. You can have very traditional views about life or religion - no matter what religion you are. But Catholics have viewed the word “Traditionalist” in light of the changes in the Mass, which took place after Vatican II…followed by a number of more modern viewpoints people have developed about their worship as opposed to the earlier - more traditional/reverent versions of worship.

We could sure use your Methodist education - since, sadly, I think Catholics have been biblically lacking in their youth. Hoping you can share some Old and New Testament education for us in upcoming discussions.

Forgive my curiosity - As a convert, which Mass are you attending / preferring? Old or New? And which Bible did you use? St. James, Dhouay Rheims, New?

And just one more question - as a Methodist, did you believe in the Blessed Mother previously? If not, what are your feelings about Our Lady following your conversion? It never occurred to me - in the case of converts from religions who don’t believe in Our Lady - how their viewpoints change - once a Catholic.
May God and Our Lady bless you.

 

[ethelzguy]

It seems to me that many of this board’s progressive Catholics are very defensive & I don’t understand that. “Your” Mass has been open to you for 40+ years, it has never been suppressed, nor will it be.

MY Mass?

It is “OUR” Mass, and always has been. Some just choose to reject it out of personal preference.

 

[elts1956]

Perhaps you would like to hear about the number of children we lost through miscarriage. I have two sons but I would give anything to hold my other children.

Hello Brotherhoff. You have my deepest sympathy on your losses. I can understand how you feel as we lost two little ones due to RH blood factor. I think of them often and ache to hold them. Peace to you and yours.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Well said…

I am beginning to believe that most of those who commit the errors you mention do so out of abject ignorance and not malice. In a way that’s good, but it’s also quite sad.

I draw very strong parallels between the people you are describing and fundamentalist Protestants. Their faith if often based not on a love for God but on frustration for their former religion(s.) Their new religion – “traditional Catholicism” is nothing more than a very crude form of cafeteria Catholicism.

Ponder that a bit…

Just as a favor. Is there any way you could perhaps be a bit more “diplomatic” with your arguments?

I don’t know why you would want to draw a parallel between me and a fundamentalist protestant. Your argument doesn’t make any sense. “Their faith is often based not on a love for God, but on frustration for thei former religion.”

1. You are not God. You can’t judge other peoples’ love for God as a result.
2. Believe it or not, some people are raised “fundamentalist.” Whatever that term means to you.

This is just one big ad hominem attack.

 

[CradleCath]

Just as a favor. Is there any way you could perhaps be a bit more “diplomatic” with your arguments?

I don’t know why you would want to draw a parallel between me and a fundamentalist protestant. Your argument doesn’t make any sense. “Their faith is often based not on a love for God, but on frustration for thei former religion.”

1. You are not God. You can’t judge other peoples’ love for God as a result.
2. Believe it or not, some people are raised “fundamentalist.” Whatever that term means to you.

This is just one big ad hominem attack.

Yes it is, PFM., I’ve only been reading & posting on this board for a few months, but I’m still surprised at the intolerance shown to orthodox Catholics & the fear of the Latin Mass that I’ve found here. I really didn’t think that these forums would be like that.

 

[elts1956]

Just as a favor. Is there any way you could perhaps be a bit more “diplomatic” with your arguments?

I don’t know why you would want to draw a parallel between me and a fundamentalist protestant. Your argument doesn’t make any sense. “Their faith is often based not on a love for God, but on frustration for thei former religion.”

1. You are not God. You can’t judge other peoples’ love for God as a result.
2. Believe it or not, some people are raised “fundamentalist.” Whatever that term means to you.

This is just one big ad hominem attack.

Hello Spiller. I have not thought of either Conservative/Traditionalist? or Modern/Progressive?
Catholics as being of the Cafeteria variety. That is a novel and focused way to look at those who vocally disagree with the Pope after Vatican II and also those who have not stepped back to look at what the the church has taught before Vatican II. All of us have the chance to learn from one another, but the discussions on these boards, especially between those groups who claim superiority of tradition, etc. either before, or after Vatican II, usually become quite nasty. I think it is because some posts are viewed as attacks on one or the other view.

I hope people will begin to realize that Anger is a response to Fear. We feel threatened by whatever and so we respond with Anger. The fight and flight syndrome that is part of our genetics hasn’t lessened in the eons past…

Thanks again for the insight.

 

[elts1956]

Just as a favor. Is there any way you could perhaps be a bit more “diplomatic” with your arguments?

I don’t know why you would want to draw a parallel between me and a fundamentalist protestant. Your argument doesn’t make any sense. “Their faith is often based not on a love for God, but on frustration for thei former religion.”

1. You are not God. You can’t judge other peoples’ love for God as a result.
2. Believe it or not, some people are raised “fundamentalist.” Whatever that term means to you.

This is just one big ad hominem attack.

Well said…

I am beginning to believe that most of those who commit the errors you mention do so out of abject ignorance and not malice. In a way that’s good, but it’s also quite sad.

I draw very strong parallels between the people you are describing and fundamentalist Protestants. Their faith if often based not on a love for God but on frustration for their former religion(s.) Their new religion – “traditional Catholicism” is nothing more than a very crude form of cafeteria Catholicism.

Ponder that a bit…

Hello Spiller. I have not thought of either Conservative/Traditionalist? or Modern/Progressive?
Catholics as being of the Cafeteria variety. That is a novel and focused way to look at those who vocally disagree with the Pope after Vatican II and also those who have not stepped back to look at what the the church has taught before Vatican II. All of us have the chance to learn from one another, but the discussions on these boards, especially between those groups who claim superiority of tradition, etc. either before, or after Vatican II, usually become quite nasty. I think it is because some posts are viewed as attacks on one or the other view.

I hope people will begin to realize that Anger is a response to Fear. We feel threatened and so we respond with Anger. The fight and flight syndrome that is part of our genetics hasn’t lessened in the eons past…

Something else for all of us to ponder.

Thanks again for the insight.