People who do not like traditional Catholicism

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Deacon Ed and Gemma Rose

I am not very good at expressing myself on these boards but I agree totally with your posts above this one.

👍 🙂
 
Additionally, I am curious to know how posters such as CradleCath and Pax et Caritas reconcile their apparent disobedience to the words of Christ (Matthew 7: "1JUDGE not, that you may not be judged, 2

“Judge not lest you be judged” (the most popular verse in the Bible today) does not mean you cannot make objective judgments. It means you do not subjectively judge, or condemned, the person.

Here’s an example. Let’s say that you witness someone walking up to a car at a red light and shooting the driver in the head. The person then throws the dead body in the street and drives away in her car.

Now, it is perfectly acceptable to say “murder is wrong”. That is an objective judgement. However, what we are not allowed to do is to say “that evil person is going to hell”. He probably is going to hell, but we are not supposed to judge on that level.

Let me give another example that is more fitting for today: Saying that homosexualtiy is an evil is not wrong. In fact, we must affirm that this perverse vice is evil. However, what we are not supposed to do is judge the individual’s guilt, unless it is our place to do so. What we must say is that homoseqxuality is a serious vice and those who practice it will go to hell (which is simply affirming what the Bible teaches). That is an objective judgement and is appropriate.

In short, we can judge objectively, which is why Jesus tell us to “judge just judgments”; however, we are not permitted to judge the subjective guilt of another person.

So, when Cardinal Ratzinger said the following about the new Mass, he was simply making an objective judgement…

Cardinal Ratzinger: “J.A. Jungmann, one of the truly great liturgists of our time, defined the liturgy of his day [the Traditional Mass], such as it could be understood in the light of historical research, as a ‘liturgy which is the fruit of development…’ What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of the liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it, as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”

When Cardinal Ratzinger, who is now our Pope, said the new Mass was “a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product”, he was simply making an objective judgment - one that I happen to agree with.
 
“Judge not lest you be judged” (the most popular verse in the Bible today) does not mean you cannot make objective judgments. It means you do not subjectively judge, or condemned, the person.

Here’s an example. Let’s say that you witness someone walking up to a car at a red light and shooting the driver in the head. The person then throws the dead body in the street and drives away in her car.

Now, it is perfectly acceptable to say “murder is wrong”. That is an objective judgement. However, what we are not allowed to do is to say “that evil person is going to hell”. He probably is going to hell, but we are not supposed to judge on that level.

Let me give another example that is more fitting for today: Saying that homosexualtiy is an evil is not wrong. In fact, we must affirm that this perverse vice is evil. However, what we are not supposed to do is judge the individual’s guilt, unless it is our place to do so. What we must say is that homoseqxuality is a serious vice and those who practice it will go to hell (which is simply affirming what the Bible teaches). That is an objective judgement and is appropriate.

In short, we can judge objectively, which is why Jesus tell us to “judge just judgments”; however, we are not permitted to judge the subjective guilt of another person.

There are posters on CAF forums who do judge those who prefer the N.O. to be somehow inferior Catholics. You can hide behind semantics and call it an “opinion,” however the word “judgment” is a synonym for “opinion.” Check your thesaurus.

So, when Cardinal Ratzinger said the following about the new Mass, he was simply making an objective judgement…

Cardinal Ratzinger: “J.A. Jungmann, one of the truly great liturgists of our time, defined the liturgy of his day [the Traditional Mass], such as it could be understood in the light of historical research, as a ‘liturgy which is the fruit of development…’ What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of the liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it, as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”

When Cardinal Ratzinger, who is now our Pope, said the new Mass was “a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product”, he was simply making an objective judgment - one that I happen to agree with.

If that is the Holy Father’s opinion, why does he celebrate the N.O.?
 
If that is the Holy Father’s opinion, why does he celebrate the N.O.?
Because it is the pastoral thing to do right now. It would be terribly harmful to many souls if he were to suddenly abrogate the Ordinary Form – just as it was terribly harmful to souls to (appear to) abrogate the Extraordinary Form so many decades ago! He continues to celebrate it, but in a way unlike most of us ever see: following the rubrics, celebrating (occasionally) ad orientem, using Latin often, chanting, with the “Benedictine” altar arrangement, distributing Communion to people on the tongue as they kneel, no extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, etc.

He is slowly (and pastorally) shaping the Ordinary Form into a more traditional liturgy. I have no doubt that the future of the Church will see a reform of the Ordinary Form and the Extraordinary Form. I doubt it will happen in Pope Benedict’s lifetime, but he has set this in motion, and the liberal (and I mean this honestly) cardinals and bishops and priests see this and it frightens them, because they want a liturgy that de-emphasizes the timeless truths of the Catholic faith. Just look at the Dutch Dominicans who want lay people to celebrate the Mass without a priest, as if a layperson could confect the Eucharist.

Do you want to know what image of the Church the liberals are afraid of? Read Pope Paul VI’s encyclical Ecclesiam Suam, written in the midst of Vatican II, before Lumen Gentium was published. You’ll see this:
37. The mystery of the Church is not a truth to be confined to the realms of speculative theology. It must be lived, so that the faithful may have a kind of intuitive experience of it, even before they come to understand it clearly. And the faithful as a community will indeed recognize that they belong to Christ’s Mystical Body when they realize that a part of the ministry of the Church’s hierarchy is to initiate men into the Christian way of life, to beget them, (26) teach them, sanctify them, and be their leaders. The hierarchy is a sort of instrument fashioned by Christ, which He Himself uses to communicate to His mystical members the marvelous gifts of truth and grace. He uses it, too, to impart an external, visible structure to the Mystical Body in its pilgrimage through the world, and to give it its sublime unity, its ability to perform its various tasks, its concerted multiplicity of form, and its spiritual beauty.

Images are powerless to convey to the mind an adequate notion of the reality and sublimity of this mystery, but having mentioned the image which St. Paul used, that of the Mystical Body, We should also make mention of the image used by Christ, that of a building, of which He is Himself the architect and builder. Though He founded this building on a man who was naturally weak and frail, Christ transformed him into solid rock, never to be without God’s marvelous support: “Upon this rock I will build my Church.” (77)
  1. If we can only stir up this awareness of the Church in ourselves and foster it in the faithful by the noble and pastoral art of education, many of the apparent difficulties which are today exercising the minds of students of ecclesiology will in fact be overcome. I mean such difficulties as how the Church can be at once both visible and spiritual, free and yet subject to discipline, claiming to be communal in character and yet organized on a sacred, hierarchical basis, already holy and yet still striving for holiness, at once both contemplative and active, and so on. All these matters will become clear through our actually living the Church’s life. This is the best illustration and confirmation of its teaching.
  2. First We must lay down a few rules to guide us in the work of reform. Obviously, there can be no question of reforming the essential nature of the Church or its basic and necessary structure. To use the word reform in that context would be to misuse it completely. We cannot brand the holy and beloved Church of God with the mark of infidelity. We must consider our membership in it as one of our greatest blessings. It testifies to our spirit “that we are the children of God.” (28) No, it is not pride nor arrogance nor obstinacy nor stupidity nor folly that makes us so sure of being living, genuine members of Christ’s Body, the authentic heirs of His Gospel, the lawful successors of the Apostles. It is a firm faith, a joyous conviction. We hold in our possession that great heritage of truth and holiness which characterizes the Catholic Church of the present day, preserving intact the living heritage of the original apostolic tradition.
That is our boast, if you like. It is rather our reason for giving thanks continually to God. (29) It is also the reason why we feel ourselves bound by a graver responsibility before God, to whom we are accountable for so great a benefit, and before the Church in which we must arouse this same conviction together with the desire and resolve to guard this treasure, this “deposit,” as St. Paul calls it. (30) We have a responsibility too toward our separated brothers and toward all men, so that all may share with us the gift of God.
And yet, how many liberals are trying to reshape the Church, or reshape the liturgy so as to give the illusion that the Church is different?

The Pope is not celebrating the Ordinary Form of the Mass in a way that gives rise to such falsehoods. I feel it is only a matter of time before the Pope celebrates a Mass in the Extraordinary Form publicly. Then the liberals, as well as the people who say “what Mass does the Pope celebrate?”, will have their answer.
 
“Judge not lest you be judged” (the most popular verse in the Bible today) does not mean you cannot make objective judgments. It means you do not subjectively judge, or condemned, the person.

Here’s an example. Let’s say that you witness someone walking up to a car at a red light and shooting the driver in the head. The person then throws the dead body in the street and drives away in her car.

Now, it is perfectly acceptable to say “murder is wrong”. That is an objective judgement. However, what we are not allowed to do is to say “that evil person is going to hell”. He probably is going to hell, but we are not supposed to judge on that level.

Let me give another example that is more fitting for today: Saying that homosexualtiy is an evil is not wrong. In fact, we must affirm that this perverse vice is evil. However, what we are not supposed to do is judge the individual’s guilt, unless it is our place to do so. What we must say is that homoseqxuality is a serious vice and those who practice it will go to hell (which is simply affirming what the Bible teaches). That is an objective judgement and is appropriate.

In short, we can judge objectively, which is why Jesus tell us to “judge just judgments”; however, we are not permitted to judge the subjective guilt of another person.

So, when Cardinal Ratzinger said the following about the new Mass, he was simply making an objective judgement…

Cardinal Ratzinger: “J.A. Jungmann, one of the truly great liturgists of our time, defined the liturgy of his day [the Traditional Mass], such as it could be understood in the light of historical research, as a ‘liturgy which is the fruit of development…’ What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of the liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it, as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”

When Cardinal Ratzinger, who is now our Pope, said the new Mass was “a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product”, he was simply making an objective judgment - one that I happen to agree with.
and if i may add to that. how about John the Baptist point out to herod his sins of being with his brother’s wife. he was not condemning him John was simple telling him he was wrong doing so. people are getting confused about judging other and condemning them.

is it not the Church right in point out to us the sins that we commit otherwise how are we to know?

are we to let people desecrate His Temple because we have no right to judge?

we must judge between right and wrong must we not?

:highprayer: :byzsoc:
 
There are posters on CAF forums who do judge those who prefer the N.O. to be somehow inferior Catholics. You can hide behind semantics and call it an “opinion,” however the word “judgment” is a synonym for “opinion.” Check your thesaurus.
I am pretty sure I did not say what you are impling. You can read through my post and tell me if I am wrong, but I did not say that those who attended the New Mass were less Catholic. That would have been a subjective judgment.

I only said, or implied, that the “Catholicism” found in the average American Pairsh today is “Catholicism Lite”, which it is.

There are many Novus Ordo Catholics who suffer through their watered down and abuse ridden Mass, and who detest the heresies of the Priest, but feel they have an obligation to do so.
 
You need to reread his post. To say those who prefer the Novus Ordo practice Catholicism lite is an insult to everyone who prefers that kind of mass, as if to insinuate that our Catholicism is less than yours

For your information I was in graduate theology in the Seminary.

Most obviously then, you have not read my posts on this. For I have consistently said that both forms are equally holy , equally efficacious, equally meritorious and are equal in all things, as they are a reenactment of the holy sacrifice of Jesus on the cross at Calvary. Or did you miss that. obviously so. I don’t condemn you for that, you just did not see it. But sunny boy, don’t tell me that I* practice Catholicism lite. That is an insulting insinuation not born up in fact.

Are you now calling me a liberal Catholic??? If you are, go back and read all of my posts. It can be done easily. Tell me where I am liberal. Please, educate yourself.

What you have seen in the last 40 is not what the Council did, but what misguided souls practicing what they called the Spirit of Vatican II did to the Church. It was neither the Spirit nor the Council, but misguided souls.

Praise the Lord. We can certainly agree on this. But you have some reading to do if you want to know what you are talking about.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Deacon Ed, I would love to discuss this topic with you, but it seems to be impossible to do so quietly & intellectually. You don’t seem to take another poster’s words & dissect & refute them point by point. For instance, here’s a statement from Pax et Caritas about objective vs. subjective judgement. It is clear & simple, yet you didn’t address it with an encylical, a motu proprio from the past, a quote from one of our popes:

Let me give another example that is more fitting for today: Saying that homosexualtiy is an evil is not wrong. In fact, we must affirm that this perverse vice is evil. ** ( here he turns to subjective judgement, something we cannot do.) However, what we are not supposed to do is judge the individual’s guilt, unless it is our place to do so. What we must say is that homoseqxuality is a serious vice and those who practice it will go to hell (which is simply affirming what the Bible teaches). That is an objective judgement and is appropriate**

Do you believe this? If not, refute it with logic, maturity & document your view with something from the authorities within the Church.

I asked you if you were a practicing Catholic before Vatican II, during the days when monthly , many times weekly, confession was the norm…when 12 hr. fasts were required & accepted as good, when the education of Catholics re their faith was excellent & you answered with:

“For your information I was in graduate theology in the Seminary”???

That answer doesn’t
"answer"my question, considering the context it make no sense.

Japhy (I think it was) addressed Cardinal Kasper’s “definition” of today’s ecumenicism & “ecumenicism by return”. Again you just screamed “we are a religion of peace & love”. I hate to destroy your vision, but we are also a religion that doesn’t tolerate heresy, that DOES excommunicate Catholics who have (or are involved in) abortion…actually said people excommunicate themselves, but that point is often lost on today’s Catholics

Screaming “I do not practice Catholicism Lite”…in not an effective way to debate.
 
Screaming “I do not practice Catholicism Lite”…in not an effective way to debate.
Since you are the one who said we practice Catholicism lite The burden of proof is on you to do so. It is not on us to prove the negative.
If you are familiar with my posts, you will see that I hold abortion in any circumstance to be a moral wrong and to be avoided. Homosexuality itself I do not condemn and there are many celibate homosexuals whether you believe it or not. It is the practice and in your face style that is wrong and sinful. Euthanasia = wrong and sinful no matter the circumstance. embryonic stem cell research = wrong and sinful no matter the goal or reason, because it involves taking a human life. Cloning = Wrong and sinful, because here one through prided is trying to usurp the role of God in playing creator. What else do you want to talk about. What the Church teaches I hold and profess and teach and preach. I don’t have to play your games to show where I stand. But dont ever say I or anyone else practice Catholicism*** lite*** simply because of our preferring a particular form of worship which is approved by Holy Mother Church. That puts you in a position of judging others hearts, intentions and commitments, which you quite obviously are incapable of doing.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Since you are the one who said we practice Catholicism lite The burden of proof is on you to do so. It is not on us to prove the negative.
If you are familiar with my posts, you will see that I hold abortion in any circumstance to be a moral wrong and to be avoided. Homosexuality itself I do not condemn and there are many celibate homosexuals whether you believe it or not. It is the practice and in your face style that is wrong and sinful. Euthanasia = wrong and sinful no matter the circumstance. embryonic stem cell research = wrong and sinful no matter the goal or reason, because it involves taking a human life. Cloning = Wrong and sinful, because here one through prided is trying to usurp the role of God in playing creator. What else do you want to talk about. What the Church teaches I hold and profess and teach and preach. I don’t have to play your games to show where I stand. But dont ever say I or anyone else practice Catholicism*** lite*** simply because of our preferring a particular form of worship which is approved by Holy Mother Church. That puts you in a position of judging others hearts, intentions and commitments, which you quite obviously are incapable of doing.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
👍 DITTO !
 
Again I am very late responding to these posts. Sorry, but do you think Pope John 23 will ultimately be brought up on charges for attempting to modernise the Church and make it more appealing to new people? Isn’t bringing the Church to potetial members what it is all about?
 
Because it is the pastoral thing to do right now. It would be terribly harmful to many souls if he were to suddenly abrogate the Ordinary Form – just as it was terribly harmful to souls to (appear to) abrogate the Extraordinary Form so many decades ago! He continues to celebrate it, but in a way unlike most of us ever see: following the rubrics, celebrating (occasionally) ad orientem, using Latin often, chanting, with the “Benedictine” altar arrangement, distributing Communion to people on the tongue as they kneel, no extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, etc.

He is slowly (and pastorally) shaping the Ordinary Form into a more traditional liturgy. I have no doubt that the future of the Church will see a reform of the Ordinary Form and the Extraordinary Form. I doubt it will happen in Pope Benedict’s lifetime, but he has set this in motion, and the liberal (and I mean this honestly) cardinals and bishops and priests see this and it frightens them, because they want a liturgy that de-emphasizes the timeless truths of the Catholic faith. Just look at the Dutch Dominicans who want lay people to celebrate the Mass without a priest, as if a layperson could confect the Eucharist.

Do you want to know what image of the Church the liberals are afraid of? Read Pope Paul VI’s encyclical Ecclesiam Suam, written in the midst of Vatican II, before Lumen Gentium was published. You’ll see this:
37. The mystery of the Church is not a truth to be confined to the realms of speculative theology. It must be lived, so that the faithful may have a kind of intuitive experience of it, even before they come to understand it clearly. And the faithful as a community will indeed recognize that they belong to Christ’s Mystical Body when they realize that a part of the ministry of the Church’s hierarchy is to initiate men into the Christian way of life, to beget them, (26) teach them, sanctify them, and be their leaders. The hierarchy is a sort of instrument fashioned by Christ, which He Himself uses to communicate to His mystical members the marvelous gifts of truth and grace. He uses it, too, to impart an external, visible structure to the Mystical Body in its pilgrimage through the world, and to give it its sublime unity, its ability to perform its various tasks, its concerted multiplicity of form, and its spiritual beauty.

Images are powerless to convey to the mind an adequate notion of the reality and sublimity of this mystery, but having mentioned the image which St. Paul used, that of the Mystical Body, We should also make mention of the image used by Christ, that of a building, of which He is Himself the architect and builder. Though He founded this building on a man who was naturally weak and frail, Christ transformed him into solid rock, never to be without God’s marvelous support: “Upon this rock I will build my Church.” (77)
  1. If we can only stir up this awareness of the Church in ourselves and foster it in the faithful by the noble and pastoral art of education, many of the apparent difficulties which are today exercising the minds of students of ecclesiology will in fact be overcome. I mean such difficulties as how the Church can be at once both visible and spiritual, free and yet subject to discipline, claiming to be communal in character and yet organized on a sacred, hierarchical basis, already holy and yet still striving for holiness, at once both contemplative and active, and so on. All these matters will become clear through our actually living the Church’s life. This is the best illustration and confirmation of its teaching.
  2. First We must lay down a few rules to guide us in the work of reform. Obviously, there can be no question of reforming the essential nature of the Church or its basic and necessary structure. To use the word reform in that context would be to misuse it completely. We cannot brand the holy and beloved Church of God with the mark of infidelity. We must consider our membership in it as one of our greatest blessings. It testifies to our spirit “that we are the children of God.” (28) No, it is not pride nor arrogance nor obstinacy nor stupidity nor folly that makes us so sure of being living, genuine members of Christ’s Body, the authentic heirs of His Gospel, the lawful successors of the Apostles. It is a firm faith, a joyous conviction. We hold in our possession that great heritage of truth and holiness which characterizes the Catholic Church of the present day, preserving intact the living heritage of the original apostolic tradition.
That is our boast, if you like. It is rather our reason for giving thanks continually to God. (29) It is also the reason why we feel ourselves bound by a graver responsibility before God, to whom we are accountable for so great a benefit, and before the Church in which we must arouse this same conviction together with the desire and resolve to guard this treasure, this “deposit,” as St. Paul calls it. (30) We have a responsibility too toward our separated brothers and toward all men, so that all may share with us the gift of God.
And yet, how many liberals are trying to reshape the Church, or reshape the liturgy so as to give the illusion that the Church is different?

The Pope is not celebrating the Ordinary Form of the Mass in a way that gives rise to such falsehoods. I feel it is only a matter of time before the Pope celebrates a Mass in the Extraordinary Form publicly. Then the liberals, as well as the people who say “what Mass does the Pope celebrate?”, will have their answer.
Thank you for sharing this, Japhy. It’s beautiful & so true. God chose that I be born into His Church & He chose that some were to find it during their lifetime. Sometimes, when I really think about that I’m just AWED that He would do this for me. (& for you). It brings about a mindset of pure gratitude, humility & an indebteness to Him.
 
Again I am very late responding to these posts. Sorry, but do you think Pope John 23 will ultimately be brought up on charges for attempting to modernise the Church and make it more appealing to new people? Isn’t bringing the Church to potetial members what it is all about?
The man has been declared a Blessed with a proven miracle. It is not likely that he will be brought up on any charges. Othewise, how do we explain the miracle?

Also, his life has been carefully studied by a commission for the cause of saints and the case is closed. The only thing left is one more miracle and canonization will go forward. There is no more review of his life allowed.

JR 🙂
 
When Cardinal Ratzinger, who is now our Pope, said the new Mass was “a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product”, he was simply making an objective judgment - one that I happen to agree with.
Pope Benedict XVI doesn’t agree with Cardinal Ratzinger. Obviously, the Holy Spirit has allowed him to see something that he did not see when he made that statement or Cardinal Ratzinger’s statement has been taken out of context. This is what he told the bishops in the letter that accompanied the Motu Proprio.

There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture. What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place. Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books. The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/b16SummorumPontificum2.htm

JR 🙂
 
I’m not a traditionalist as defined on this forum, but I’ve been sympathetic to the traditional movement since the late 70s – and yes, I’m old enough to remember the Pre-Vatican II Latin Mass.

I think traditionalists should have a safe haven where they can speak freely, but charitably. There is nothing uncharitable about believing the TLM is preferable to the NO. The Catholic Church has many valid rites, counting the Eastern rites. I don’t think having a preference is (necessarily) saying that Christ is “less present” in other rites.

There is also nothing wrong with criticizing the so-called spirit of Vatican II. Much has been stripped and watered down in the past 40 years. Bishops and priests have had a field day with experimentation and change for the sake of change. And where does it show its ugly face the most? In the Liturgy. Perhaps the NO is an inferior rite if for no other reason than pop culture corruption.

I think the real problem comes when traditionalists zero in on a certain era (Trent to 1958) and staple it as “the norm” for all Catholics everywhere. For many of them, it’s not just about preferring the TLM, it’s about erasing Vatican II. It’s about mistaking uniformity for unity, and in the process sowing disunity. I see that as the biggest draw for criticism.

Pope Benedict has made it clear in the Moto Proprio that in preferring the TLM one cannot reject the validity and value of the NO. That said, traditional Catholics should be able to come here and express legitimate concerns without having their loyalty to Rome constantly questioned.
 
I’m not a traditionalist as defined on this forum, but I’ve been sympathetic to the traditional movement since the late 70s – and yes, I’m old enough to remember the Pre-Vatican II Latin Mass.
I’m V-2 born and bred, and a bit of a lib in my youth (as well as lapsed), although I find the older I get, the more toward tradition my attitudes shift. That said, I have NO experience other than the NO Mass. 😃
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Ohwesty:
I think traditionalists should have a safe haven where they can speak freely, but charitably. There is nothing uncharitable about believing the TLM is preferable to the NO. The Catholic Church has many valid rites, counting the Eastern rites. I don’t think having a preference is (necessarily) saying that Christ is “less present” in other rites.
Fully agreed. If Christ is fully present at a Mass, then that Mass cannot be “lesser” than another.
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Ohwesty:
There is also nothing wrong with criticizing the so-called spirit of Vatican II. Much has been stripped and watered down in the past 40 years. Bishops and priests have had a field day with experimentation and change for the sake of change. And where does it show its ugly face the most? In the Liturgy. Perhaps the NO is an** inferior rite **if for no other reason than pop culture corruption.
Perhaps you meant to say that the NO is less than it can be when it is allowed to be corrupted by pop culture? Again, a properly devout and faithful OF Mass is either valid and equal to the EF, or it is not a Mass.
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Ohwesty:
I think the real problem comes when traditionalists zero in on a certain era (Trent to 1958) and staple it as “the norm” for all Catholics everywhere. For many of them, it’s not just about preferring the TLM, it’s about erasing Vatican II. It’s about mistaking uniformity for unity, and in the process sowing disunity. I see that as the biggest draw for criticism.
Agreed. Oddly enough, there was a time when the Mass was in Greek, and Latin was vernacular.
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Ohwesty:
Pope Benedict has made it clear in the Moto Proprio that in preferring the TLM one cannot reject the validity and value of the NO. That said, traditional Catholics should be able to come here and express legitimate concerns without having their loyalty to Rome constantly questioned.
That would be a good thing. As would some of them ceasing levelling the same accusation at anyone who attends the OF.
 
Thank you for sharing this, Japhy. It’s beautiful & so true. God chose that I be born into His Church & He chose that some were to find it during their lifetime. Sometimes, when I really think about that I’m just AWED that He would do this for me. (& for you). It brings about a mindset of pure gratitude, humility & an indebteness to Him.
From what I have read, the so called break from tradition is not just about the form of the Mass, but involves a number of things. Yet, all I hear about on Traditional forums is that the NO is wrong and TLM is right. I wish someone was knowledgeable enough to take each action of the priest during an NO Mass and compare it to the same steps of TLM. Also, I want to know what other traditions beside the form of the Mass were deleted after Vatican II. Then perhaps those of us who celebrate a respectful, reverential NO Mass will know what some Trads. are griping about. You need to understand there are at least two generaltions of young people who have grown up without TLM. They know nothing about it, so explain in detail please. Thanks.
 
I believe that all good people of faith, any faith, like tradition, because it gives faith a sense of grounding and continuity.

That being said, people do not like being reminded over and over again that the way the mass was celebrated prior to Vatican II was the best thing since sliced bread and the mass after Vatican II was moldy. For those of us who came into the Catholic world during the OF this becomes annoying. I for one converted to Catholicism when there was nothing but the OF. Had it been so inferior, I would not have loved the mass and the Eucharist as much as I do. I think that I speak for others when I say that we get tired of people making comparisons between the two forms of the mass and claiming that one is superior to the other.

As to abuses, speaking to older priests who grew up with the EF, I have learned that there were abuses there as well. Abuse is not built into the liturgy in either form. Abuse comes from attitudes that people have about their self-importance. People who believe that their ideas are better than those of others or that their needs have greater priority than those of others tend to build things into the mass to serve their interests. Such selfishness can be found in any form of the mass, because it stems from the sinful condition of man, not the mass itself. It would be nice to hear someone who lived with the EF admit that there were abuses and posibly are still some within the EF.

In reading an article about a sermon given by one of the SSPX bishops at a mass, I was not impressed when the sermon turned into a rant against the Vatican rather than a reflection on scripture and a proclamation of the Good News. Such a rant is an abuse as well. The sermon is not the place to air out one’s laundry. Therefore, it is very unappealing to hear of the reverent and faithful priests who celebrate the EF vs the irreverent priests who celebrate the OF, when you hear of a homily turned into proselityzing against Rome. This kind of traditionalism, if it can be called that, is regretable and bothersome.

Another annoying behaviour found among many (not all) traditional Catholics is the constant quoting of what former popes said about ecumenism, religious liberty and the liturgy. Or what someone wrote in a book. To the well educated Catholic mind it begs several questions. 1) How do you know that Pope X in 1600 was right and Pope John Paul II in 2000 was wrong? What if it was the other way around? What if Pope X was wrong and Pope John Paul is correctly interpreting a concept or interpreting ecclesiology correctly?

Just because something has been around for a long time does not mean that anything that came after it is wrong, because it is worded differently. It may be speaking to a different circumstance in Church history. Those who quote this author and that author to defend their traditionalist views, but do not quote John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II or Benedict XVI, often leave a bad taste in people’s mouths. Because it seems as if they place greater trust in a particular author who supports a certain viewpoint, but they do not trust the Pope who was given the authority to lead the Church and who has a better understanding of the Church, because he sees the bigger picture better than author X. This is also annoying to any Catholic who loves tradition, but includes in his tradition love, reverence and obedience to the Pope, not because he is God, but because he’s the Pope. If I had to choose betweent he best writer out there and the Pope, I would rather take my chances with the Pope unless he is preaching sin.

I don’t like it when people say that popes can teach sin as if the rest of us didn’t know Church history. Of course they can and have done so. But none of us can put a finger on a single thing that modern popes have expected or directed that is materially sinful. Just because it is different from what was said before, it does not mean that it is a sin or that the Pope has stopped believing in what was said before. It can mean that the contemporary pope is building on what a predecessor said or sees the circumstances as different and has to make a different statement, not to deny what came before, but to address what is happening today and what works today. The inability of some traditionalists to weave papal teachings together and their insistence that the popes of yesteryear were right and today’s popes are wrong, is an offense to the intelligent Catholic who can see the connection and the reason for restating something

It’s as if the person were trying to tell us that we do not understand Catholicism. Only he or she does, because he has a grip on something that Pope Pius X said. But why such people can’t take something that Pius X said and something that John Paul II said and weave it together as one continuous idea approached from different perspectives by different people in different times is beyond me. It’s almost insulting to those of us who can do so.

The use of the terms modern and modernist interchangeably is an insult to those Catholics who are well educated and know the difference between the two. Worse is the interchangeable use between the word new and modernist. Because something is new does not make it modernist. The incorrect use of language makes traditionalism sound horrible, when in fact it is not horrible.

Then there are too many apriori assumptions made by some postes that contemporary Catholics no longer appreciate such devotions as the rosary, Benediction, the Blessed Sacrament or the priesthood. This is a generalization that does not apply to every contemporary Catholic and is unfair.

Finally, there are some traditionalists who want to do battle over Vatican II, ecumenism, liturgy and form, but sow little interest in traditional mysticism, the virtues of endurance, humility and obedience which have been part of the Church’s traditional spirituality and asceticism for 2000 years. That lifestyle is equally important to the existence and growth of the Church as any encyclical ever written. There are some exemplary contemporary saints that are rarely mentioned by some traditionalists who exemplify traditional faith and adherence to the Church such as St. Faustina, Bl. Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Bl. John XXIII, St. Alberto Hurtado, St. Padre Pio, St. Maximilian Kolbe and St. Edith Stein. These holy men and women were canonized or beatified after Vatican II and they have much to offer Catholics by way of traditional love of prayer, silence, obedience, humility, suffering, endurance, charity and evangelical living. The failure to mention them or even bring them up on traditionalist forums makes one wonder if they are appreciated by traditionalists.

I do not believe that traditionalists are all cut of the same bolt of cloth as many of the ones who post on CAF. I have met and worked with many who are very devoted to a life of penance, prayer, virtue, and reform from within the Church without going out of their way to find only the faults of the Church. One who comes to mind is Cardinal Sean O’Malley of Boston. He is a very holy friar who continues to observe the Franciscan tradition, despite his ascension to the College of Cardinals. He even continues to wear the traditional friar’s habit of poverty and penance, instead of the regal red robes of a cardinal.

There is not such thing as traditional Catholicism that people don’t like. It is the way that people present Catholicism that people don’t like, whether they are presenting it from a traditional perspective or a very contemporary perspective. If it’s only condemnation and criticism of the Church and the spirituality of fellow Catholics, it gets old and fails to cultivate a real spirit of prayer, penance, charity and humility. It appears to lack an effort to weave together the teachings of the Church from its birth to today. It seems that while the liberals seem to push the Church forward into some chaotic spirituality that they call Catholic, others seem to want to hold the Church hostage in the past instead of seeing the relationship between what has been handed down from the past and what the Church (not some individual) is giving us today.

This lack of intellectual honesty is not only found among the so called progressive Catholics, but among some traditionalist Catholics.

I for one prefer to be a Catholic (without labels) who loves the tradition of the Church and finds the continuity of our faith in what the Church teaches today as well as what she taught centuries ago.

JR 🙂
 
the novus ordo is a banal fabrication. it’s days are numbered. the tridentine mass will replace it in due time, or a hybrid.

look at the christian east and their liturgies. they essentially are the same liturgy as practiced by their church fathers.
 
I believe that all good people of faith, any faith, like tradition, because it gives faith a sense of grounding and continuity.

That being said, people do not like being reminded over and over again that the way the mass was celebrated prior to Vatican II was the best thing since sliced bread and the mass after Vatican II was moldy. For those of us who came into the Catholic world during the OF this becomes annoying. I for one converted to Catholicism when there was nothing but the OF. Had it been so inferior, I would not have loved the mass and the Eucharist as much as I do. I think that I speak for others when I say that we get tired of people making comparisons between the two forms of the mass and claiming that one is superior to the other.

As to abuses, speaking to older priests who grew up with the EF, I have learned that there were abuses there as well. Abuse is not built into the liturgy in either form. Abuse comes from attitudes that people have about their self-importance. People who believe that their ideas are better than those of others or that their needs have greater priority than those of others tend to build things into the mass to serve their interests. Such selfishness can be found in any form of the mass, because it stems from the sinful condition of man, not the mass itself. It would be nice to hear someone who lived with the EF admit that there were abuses and posibly are still some within the EF.

In reading an article about a sermon given by one of the SSPX bishops at a mass, I was not impressed when the sermon turned into a rant against the Vatican rather than a reflection on scripture and a proclamation of the Good News. Such a rant is an abuse as well. The sermon is not the place to air out one’s laundry. Therefore, it is very unappealing to hear of the reverent and faithful priests who celebrate the EF vs the irreverent priests who celebrate the OF, when you hear of a homily turned into proselityzing against Rome. This kind of traditionalism, if it can be called that, is regretable and bothersome.

Another annoying behaviour found among many (not all) traditional Catholics is the constant quoting of what former popes said about ecumenism, religious liberty and the liturgy. Or what someone wrote in a book. To the well educated Catholic mind it begs several questions. 1) How do you know that Pope X in 1600 was right and Pope John Paul II in 2000 was wrong? What if it was the other way around? What if Pope X was wrong and Pope John Paul is correctly interpreting a concept or interpreting ecclesiology correctly?

Just because something has been around for a long time does not mean that anything that came after it is wrong, because it is worded differently. It may be speaking to a different circumstance in Church history. Those who quote this author and that author to defend their traditionalist views, but do not quote John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II or Benedict XVI, often leave a bad taste in people’s mouths. Because it seems as if they place greater trust in a particular author who supports a certain viewpoint, but they do not trust the Pope who was given the authority to lead the Church and who has a better understanding of the Church, because he sees the bigger picture better than author X. This is also annoying to any Catholic who loves tradition, but includes in his tradition love, reverence and obedience to the Pope, not because he is God, but because he’s the Pope. If I had to choose betweent he best writer out there and the Pope, I would rather take my chances with the Pope unless he is preaching sin.

I don’t like it when people say that popes can teach sin as if the rest of us didn’t know Church history. Of course they can and have done so. But none of us can put a finger on a single thing that modern popes have expected or directed that is materially sinful. Just because it is different from what was said before, it does not mean that it is a sin or that the Pope has stopped believing in what was said before. It can mean that the contemporary pope is building on what a predecessor said or sees the circumstances as different and has to make a different statement, not to deny what came before, but to address what is happening today and what works today. The inability of some traditionalists to weave papal teachings together and their insistence that the popes of yesteryear were right and today’s popes are wrong, is an offense to the intelligent Catholic who can see the connection and the reason for restating something

It’s as if the person were trying to tell us that we do not understand Catholicism. Only he or she does, because he has a grip on something that Pope Pius X said. But why such people can’t take something that Pius X said and something that John Paul II said and weave it together as one continuous idea approached from different perspectives by different people in different times is beyond me. It’s almost insulting to those of us who can do so.

The use of the terms modern and modernist interchangeably is an insult to those Catholics who are well educated and know the difference between the two. Worse is the interchangeable use between the word new and modernist. Because something is new does not make it modernist. The incorrect use of language makes traditionalism sound horrible, when in fact it is not horrible.

Then there are too many apriori assumptions made by some postes that contemporary Catholics no longer appreciate such devotions as the rosary, Benediction, the Blessed Sacrament or the priesthood. This is a generalization that does not apply to every contemporary Catholic and is unfair.

Finally, there are some traditionalists who want to do battle over Vatican II, ecumenism, liturgy and form, but sow little interest in traditional mysticism, the virtues of endurance, humility and obedience which have been part of the Church’s traditional spirituality and asceticism for 2000 years. That lifestyle is equally important to the existence and growth of the Church as any encyclical ever written. There are some exemplary contemporary saints that are rarely mentioned by some traditionalists who exemplify traditional faith and adherence to the Church such as St. Faustina, Bl. Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Bl. John XXIII, St. Alberto Hurtado, St. Padre Pio, St. Maximilian Kolbe and St. Edith Stein. These holy men and women were canonized or beatified after Vatican II and they have much to offer Catholics by way of traditional love of prayer, silence, obedience, humility, suffering, endurance, charity and evangelical living. The failure to mention them or even bring them up on traditionalist forums makes one wonder if they are appreciated by traditionalists.

I do not believe that traditionalists are all cut of the same bolt of cloth as many of the ones who post on CAF. I have met and worked with many who are very devoted to a life of penance, prayer, virtue, and reform from within the Church without going out of their way to find only the faults of the Church. One who comes to mind is Cardinal Sean O’Malley of Boston. He is a very holy friar who continues to observe the Franciscan tradition, despite his ascension to the College of Cardinals. He even continues to wear the traditional friar’s habit of poverty and penance, instead of the regal red robes of a cardinal.

There is not such thing as traditional Catholicism that people don’t like. It is the way that people present Catholicism that people don’t like, whether they are presenting it from a traditional perspective or a very contemporary perspective. If it’s only condemnation and criticism of the Church and the spirituality of fellow Catholics, it gets old and fails to cultivate a real spirit of prayer, penance, charity and humility. It appears to lack an effort to weave together the teachings of the Church from its birth to today. It seems that while the liberals seem to push the Church forward into some chaotic spirituality that they call Catholic, others seem to want to hold the Church hostage in the past instead of seeing the relationship between what has been handed down from the past and what the Church (not some individual) is giving us today.

This lack of intellectual honesty is not only found among the so called progressive Catholics, but among some traditionalist Catholics.

I for one prefer to be a Catholic (without labels) who loves the tradition of the Church and finds the continuity of our faith in what the Church teaches today as well as what she taught centuries ago.

JR 🙂
You have said it so well JR. I do not understand why people who believe in the same Faith have such difficulty agreeing not to disagree in such judgemental ways. The I am better, my Mass is better, the good old days were right and now is wrong attitude is unnecessary if discussed by people who have no agenda other than living their faith. We need to remember more often “Love one another”. We can’t preach it unless we practice. it. 😉
 
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