People who do not like traditional Catholicism

[japhy]

From what I have read, the so called break from tradition is not just about the form of the Mass, but involves a number of things.

Yeah, things like the liturgical calendar, the restructuring of the Liturgy of the Hours, the drop-off in the early 70’s of many devotions (such as the Rosary and Adoration)… these are also part of that tradition.

I wish someone was knowledgeable enough to take each action of the priest during an NO Mass and compare it to the same steps of TLM.

People have done that. I did it with the Eucharistic Prayers and the Offertory in both forms of Mass a week ago. There’s a pair of essays on LumenGentleman.com (if that domain has come back online…) comparing the texts of the two Masses. There’s a book “Reform of the Reform?” by Fr. Kocik that has, as one if its appendices, a comparison of the texts of the Masses, side-by-side.

Now, some of these comparisons include the author’s assessment. The author of the pair of essays, for example, finds the Ordinary Form lacking, and calls it inferior to the Extraordinary Form. You should still read the essays, because perhaps you can come to a different conclusion from the same data, and articulate why.

 

[japhy]

As to abuses, speaking to older priests who grew up with the EF, I have learned that there were abuses there as well. Abuse is not built into the liturgy in either form.

Of course there were abuses before. I’d be willing to bet that, seeing what was lost, a priest who willfully celebrates the Extraordinary Form does his best to eliminate abuses in his celebration (and would try to eliminate the abuses in the Ordinary Form he celebrates as well).

Although “abuse is not built into the liturgy in either form”, the creation of the Ordinary Form did follow a period of extreme experimentation and liturgical instability (changes being made every year); it also (moreso in the English than in the Latin) invites the celebrant to supply his own text rather than the universal text.

In reading an article about a sermon given by one of the SSPX bishops at a mass, I was not impressed when the sermon turned into a rant against the Vatican rather than a reflection on scripture and a proclamation of the Good News. Such a rant is an abuse as well.

I agree with you 100% on this.

Another annoying behaviour found among many (not all) traditional Catholics is the constant quoting of what former popes said about ecumenism, religious liberty and the liturgy. Or what someone wrote in a book.

Well, those of us who quote these things (and not all of them are split between pre-V2 and post-V2 persons) are establishing precedent and backing up what would otherwise just be our opinions or allegations. Of course we should see the continuity between the Magisterium before V2 and during/after V2. Sometimes, however, the pre-V2 Magisterium stated something more clearly or more fully than the post-V2 Magisterium. Sometimes it’s the other way around. Sometimes the post-V2 Mag. reiterates something the pre-V2 Mag. said, and it seems to go unnoticed (like Pope John Paul II’s Chirograph on Pope Pius X’s Tra le sollecitudini).

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I believe that all good people of faith, any faith, like tradition, because it gives faith a sense of grounding and continuity.

I for one prefer to be a Catholic (without labels) who loves the tradition of the Church and finds the continuity of our faith in what the Church teaches today as well as what she taught centuries ago.
JR

JR, this has been one of your better posts. It was well thought out, logically presented with no animosity that I can see that anyone could pick at or bicker about.

While I deleted the big middle portion, I did so only for brevity on my part. This would be a good road map for both sides on how to react during this hopeful healing and reuniting period in the Church.
Prayers & blessings
:clapping:
Deacon Ed B

 

[pnewton]

the novus ordo is a banal fabrication.

At least this will give us a solid reference to consider your future posts.

This thread is not about the current ordinary Mass, but about posters coming to this forum to post. Despite the legitimacy that some may come here just to stir the pot, I do not think a soul has denigrated the Mass in any form like the occasion traditionalist poster.

 

[ethelzguy]

JR, this has been one of your better posts. It was well thought out, logically presented with no animosity that I can see that anyone could pick at or bicker about.

While I deleted the big middle portion, I did so only for brevity on my part. This would be a good road map for both sides on how to react during this hopeful healing and reuniting period in the Church.
Prayers & blessings
:clapping:
Deacon Ed B

JR, you summed it up better than I ever could. Unfortunately it will fall on many deaf ears.

 

[Jeanette_L]

JR, this has been one of your better posts. It was well thought out, logically presented with no animosity that I can see that anyone could pick at or bicker about.

While I deleted the big middle portion, I did so only for brevity on my part. This would be a good road map for both sides on how to react during this hopeful healing and reuniting period in the Church.
Prayers & blessings
:clapping:
Deacon Ed B

JR, you summed it up better than I ever could. Unfortunately it will fall on many deaf ears.

I second Deacon Ed and ethelzguy. Although I have to say, it’s hard to pick out your absolutely best post , this is for certain, at the very top of a long list of keepers.

I’m sorry as well, that more people who need to really think about what you have said will fail to do so.

But as for the rest of us, it gives us courage, knowing that moderation, balance is always where the Spirit leads, we are safe to stay there, with our beloved Church and her leader, our papa, without fear of being called a popalotrist.

Even this term, popalotry, is strange coming from the far Traditional side, seeing how it was always the favorite put down from the Protestants through the centuries. An interesting development.

 

[CradleCath]

I believe that all good people of faith, any faith, like tradition, because it gives faith a sense of grounding and continuity.

It’s rather hard to discuss tradtional Catholicism, as we have tradtion (small t)…an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior, a custom:

Some examples of this:

** are the candle stands & predieux that, pre-Vat. II, stood before a side altar. to indicate one’s intention to say a prayer for another person, and the candle symbolized that prayer.

**The ringing of the Church bells for the Angelus at 6AM, noon & 6PM accompanied by the Angelus prayers of the faitful when they heard the bells…whether they were at work, hanging out the wash, eating dinner…these bells reminded us that we were members of the Catholic Church & the Body of Christ, that we were called to take His Word outside the confines of our Church & our homes into the world.

**Holy Water fonts as one enters Church.
**altar rails at which to kneel when we recieved the Eucharist.
**the central placement of the Tabernacle
**The Blessing of our rosaries, our homes, our medals, etc., etc, etc…

All of these things & more are, of course, simply customs & have little to do with the doctrines of our faith. They are, however, traditions & customs that are & were part of the lives of generations of Catholics. Kindness alone demands that if something of this sort is to be relegated to the “spiritual dumpster”
an explanation should be given to those who hold these expressions of piety dear & the removal of same should be done slowly & gently, with GOOD REASON.

And we have Tradttion (large T)… the handing down of information & beliefs by word of mouth.

This Tradition concerns doctrines & dogma & the entire message of Salvation & cannot be changed:

**The Bible, itself, is part of this Tradition.
CCC76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
orally **“by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;**33
**& in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34 **

Tradition & Scripture are closely related, as one can see through a study of the Sacrament of Confession.( “Whose sins ye shall forgive they are forgiven”…& the Sacramental absolution…I absolve Thee in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit).

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, first appearing in the Bible (Hail Mary, FULL of grace) & later defined as infallible teaching by Pope Pius IX in the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus, during the 19th century…is part of Tradition.

The responsibilities & charisms of the ordained Priesthood, the Priesthood of Melchizedek, are part of Sacred Tradition.

The Sacraments (& that includes the Sacrament of Penance) are part of Sacred Tradition.

The words & behaviors attached to our Sacred Liturgy are part of this Tradition.

More from the CCC.:

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."

Tradition is the unbroken, unchanged, complete deposit of faith handed down through the generations & it’s a beautiful Faith to behold. It should **never **be denigrated, either by one who follows Tradition or one who chooses another way.

I’ll try to answer other parts of your post, JR., later…right now, I have some barbequed chicken to eat.

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY TO EVERYONE.

 

[EddieArent]

At least this will give us a solid reference to consider your future posts.

This thread is not about the current ordinary Mass, but about posters coming to this forum to post. Despite the legitimacy that some may come here just to stir the pot, I do not think a soul has denigrated the Mass in any form like the occasion traditionalist poster.

The poster that stated this way simply taking the words from the then Cardinal Ratzinger’s mouth;

“After the Council… in place of the liturgy as the fruit of organic development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it, as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product."

The quote, IIRC, comes from a preface to a book critical of the new liturgy by Monsignor Klaus Gamber.

 

[Nordar]

Deacon Ed and Gemma Rose

I am not very good at expressing myself on these boards but I agree totally with your posts above this one.

Ditto!

 

[Nordar]

DITTO !

DITTO! again, Deacon Ed I love your posts!

 

[ethelzguy]

**the central placement of the Tabernacle

 

[pnewton]

… from the then Cardinal Ratzinger’s mouth; …by Monsignor Klaus Gamber.

In your own words. It’s amazing what we can do with quotes devoid of context. In any case, even it the poster was a Cardinal, then he would still be off topic and still reaveal his own mind more than anything else. It sheds no insight into why some people post here.

 

[JReducation]

CradleCath;3885400:

I for one don’t “feel right” when I am in a Church that has the tabernacle off to the side somewhere. But, the more I study the matter and having had a few discussions with clergy about it, it seems that “off to the side” IS the proper placement.

Not that I’ll ever be comfortable with it.

The placement of the tabernacle has had it’s own interesting history. Until the Middle Ages the tabernacle was on a side way of the sanctuary. Our Holy Father Francis had it moved to the centre of the sanctuary in the friary chapels. Gradually it caught on.

The reason he had it moved was simply so that the friars cold pray the Liturgy of the Hours before the Blessed Sacrament. Franciscans do not pray the Liturgy of the Hours in choir, as to other religious communities. If you notice the Poor Clares on EWTN they face forward toward the sanctuary, not at each other as it is normally done.

I’m not sure when the Universal Church incorporated the tabernacle in the centre of the sanctuary.

JR

 

[CradleCath]

JReducation;3884326]I believe that all good people of faith, any faith, like tradition, because it gives faith a sense of grounding and continuity.

That being said, people do not like being reminded over and over again that the way the mass was celebrated prior to Vatican II was the best thing since sliced bread and the mass after Vatican II was moldy.

“People” do not like a lot of things. I, for instance, do not like it when I broach an idea to my husband & he says, “I know a better way to do it”. (Thank God, he seldom does that.) I do not like it when the help at my store will not work as hard as I do. I do not like it when some of our hierarchy do not support the Pope 100%. I don’t like it when one who has never attended a TLM., gives their opinion of same based on what “someone told them”. There are many things in this world that a lot of us don’t like, but most of us can control our emotions, think it through & at least, understand the point of view of the other person…even when we don’t agree.

For those of us who came into the Catholic world during the OF this becomes annoying. I for one converted to Catholicism when there was nothing but the OF. Had it been so inferior, I would not have loved the mass and the Eucharist as much as I do.

Using that kind of “logic”, I could claim that had the Tridentine Mass been in need of such sweeping reform, I could not like IT like I do.

I think that I speak for others when I say that we get tired of people making comparisons between the two forms of the mass and claiming that one is superior to the other.

Comparisons between the two Masses were/are **bound to be made. **That’s life & something that was expected as far back as the council. We compare the past to the present all of the time. “This roast isn’t quite as tender as the one I made last week, this dress is prettier than the one I wore to last year’s party, etc., etc., ETC.”
To believe that such comparisons are somehow “uncatholic” is ridiculous.

A question. Just think for one moment calmly & peacefully & answer this. I attended the Tridentine Mass for 25 years & the Novus Ordo for 41 years. IF, after thorough examination of both Masses & the theology of both Masses, I find that one reflects the FULNESS of the Catholic faith…from the music to the Communion of Saints, to the intercessory power of the Virgin Mary & the other doesn’t do that so much, what am I to do?? If the attendance at one Mass encourages humility & a penitent attitude within me & many other Catholics, would you have us remain silent? Personnally, I’d say that Christ would want us to share our thoughts about that. If there are parts of the Novus Ordo that you especially like & that you feel fosters more faithfulness within you…tell about them. When one becomes defensive, one’s arguments turn into whining about “they said this, & they said that”.

Goodbye for now, your post is awfully long & I’m taking it one issue at a time.

 

[JReducation]

“People” do not like a lot of things. I, for instance, do not like it when I broach an idea to my husband & he says, “I know a better way to do it”. (Thank God, he seldom does that.) I do not like it when the help at my store will not work as hard as I do. I do not like it when some of our hierarchy do not support the Pope 100%. I don’t like it when one who has never attended a TLM., gives their opinion of same based on what “someone told them”. There are many things in this world that a lot of us don’t like, but most of us can control our emotions, think it through & at least, understand the point of view of the other person…even when we don’t agree.

Using that kind of “logic”, I could claim that had the Tridentine Mass been in need of such sweeping reform, I could not like IT like I do.

Comparisons between the two Masses were/are **bound to be made. **That’s life & something that was expected as far back as the council. We compare the past to the present all of the time. “This roast isn’t quite as tender as the one I made last week, this dress is prettier than the one I wore to last year’s party, etc., etc., ETC.”
To believe that such comparisons are somehow “uncatholic” is ridiculous.

A question. Just think for one moment calmly & peacefully & answer this. I attended the Tridentine Mass for 25 years & the Novus Ordo for 41 years. IF, after thorough examination of both Masses & the theology of both Masses, I find that one reflects the FULNESS of the Catholic faith…from the music to the Communion of Saints, to the intercessory power of the Virgin Mary & the other doesn’t do that so much, what am I to do?? If the attendance at one Mass encourages humility & a penitent attitude within me & many other Catholics, would you have us remain silent? Personnally, I’d say that Christ would want us to share our thoughts about that. If there are parts of the Novus Ordo that you especially like & that you feel fosters more faithfulness within you…tell about them. When one becomes defensive, one’s arguments turn into whining about “they said this, & they said that”.

Goodbye for now, your post is awfully long & I’m taking it one issue at a time.

You’re missing my point. The question is whether people dislike Traditionalism. My point is that we do not dislike Traditionalism. There are behaviours that we dislike, behaviours that are often shrouded under the label “Traditionalism”, but are not really. They are simply poor social skills.

JR

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

These are questions to Deacon EdB, not that I don’t welcome other posters to respond.

I ask you these questions because I have read what I percieve to be wisdom in your posts.

I think that the Tridentine Mass is beautiful. I am a Catholic Charasmatic. Are you aware of that movement in the Church? It is a movement with strong feelings and a desire to worship the Holy Spirit in a very special way along with Jesus Christ and the Almighty Father. We love and adore Jesus in the Eucharist. Most take the Bible on word value, and believe all that it says to be the truth. We do not take the story of Creation, Noah, Moses and the parting the Red Sea, Jonah and the Whale, the Institution of the Eucharist and the Resurrection of Jesus as mere legends or stories to explain a moral. Many who are able attend Mass daily as we desire to be ever more near to Our Lord Jesus. We have a deep devotion to Mary. We follow the Holy Father in Rome…and we support him. Many love the Tridentine Mass, but love also the OF.

I love to be at a Mass where they are playing guitars. I love even more to be on my knees and crying during an organ playing Ave Maria. The Benediction is totally beautiful.

I detest going to a Mass where the Truth is watered down, but I do not feel that just because it is not a Tridentine Mass that the Truth is being watered down. In a Mass where they are playing the guitars and speaking English, it can be a very holy and reverent Mass. It is all about the devoutness and reverence of the priest…isn’t that so?
I know priests who preside in a number of Masses every Sunday. One Mass will be for all of the senior citizens early in the morning. There will usually be organ music and much quiet. Which I love to be a part of. Then, a couple of hours later, there may be a youth Mass. There will be a lot of music and a lot of action. Yet, the priest will say and perform the exact same words and actions for both Masses. His reverence is the same for both, because His love and reverence for Christ Jesus is the same.

I have also considered myself a traditionalist because I want and sometimes feel all but compelled to recieve the Body and Blood of my Jesus in a kneeling position and on my tongue.
Is there anything wrong with that? Does that make me a sinful non-conformist? I felt attacked on this form because someone said that I was going against Church teaching. So I felt like, if I had to choose one side of the fence or the other…which by the way, I think is totally wrong…I was being forced to side with the traditionalists because I feel the need to recieve my Jesus on my knees.
I know many people in the Charasmatic Movement who recieve Jesus on their knees. Usually the priest doesn’t even bat an eye.
It isn’t a matter of pride. I don’t feel the need to be holier than anyone else. As a matter of fact, I ask God to make me invisible to any who might think that it is a matter of pride for me. I kneel because I am aware that I am totally unworthy to stand before my Lord. I have to kneel, not because I like to kneel, but because I am before my God. And when I do not kneel, I feel that I am being disobedient and proud before my Lord. Like I am saying to Him, “You aren’t worthy of my bowing down before You.” So how can I do aught but kneel? So am I wrong for kneeling?
So, if I am considered by one side to be traditionalistic, I have to say that I love the OF. I am not prejudiced against anyone who loves God. And then, I am not hateful to anyone who does not.

 

[CradleCath]

You’re missing my point. The question is whether people dislike Traditionalism. My point is that we do not dislike Traditionalism. There are behaviours that we dislike, behaviours that are often shrouded under the label “Traditionalism”, but are not really. They are simply poor social skills.

JR

I think that you’re missing MY points.

One cannot define a “traditional” Catholic by his/her “behaviors”, but by whether or not they believe in & practice both the traditions I mentioned in my post AND whether or not they hold true to the SacredTradition of the Catholic Church.

These “poor social skills” you speak of…well, I haven’t seen much of that from Trads. in these forums. What I have seen is you posting incessantly in THIS forum & claiming that you have nothing against Traditional Catholicism…it’s the people who practice it that you don’t like. I’m only saying that there are behaviors & mind-sets that irritate…that’s just life…but you seem to be letting these behaviors get to you & are coming across to me as a whiner. Perhaps you’d be happier posting within another forurm. I don’t say this in a mean way. I just know if people irritated me the way they seem to irritate you, I’d want nothing to do with them.

 

[EasterJoy]

These “poor social skills” you speak of…well, I haven’t seen much of that from Trads. in these forums. What I have seen is you posting incessantly in THIS forum & claiming that you have nothing against Traditional Catholicism…it’s the people who practice it that you don’t like. I’m only saying that there are behaviors & mind-sets that irritate…that’s just life…but you seem to be letting these behaviors get to you & are coming across to me as a whiner. Perhaps you’d be happier posting within another forurm. I don’t say this in a mean way. I just know if people irritated me the way they seem to irritate you, I’d want nothing to do with them.

I think if we all went back and re-read some posts, we’d find that the same tone of voice is much less grating in someone we agree with than with someone we don’t agree with. (As a rule: I know people who are driven nuts by other people who make a point they agree with in a nasty manner, as they feel it ruins the whole message.)

Perhaps if we went back and changed a few posts, either putting in or removing a “not” here and there to reverse the meaning, it would show what I mean.

 

[wina]

I come here to defend Holy Mother Church and the Holy Father against those who accuse her and him of heresy.

I am a convert from evangelical Protestantism. Until I joined CAF, I had no idea that there was an unfriendly division between Catholics.

I see danger in this division. I’ve been there.

Same here, I had no idea about it either (traditional catholics or …catholics) until I joined here in CAF then I noticed that there’re few form of masses (Tridentine mass or ordinary form mass etc). And honestly it makes me very confused, because I’ve thought that Catholics is catholics. And I agree with you that it’s very danger about this division. Catholics is in danger by external and internal attacked. We should remember what Jesus said that He is the true Vine and we are the branches, we remain in HIM. So, why don’t we unite to remain in HIM.
Peace

 

[Jeanette_L]

I just know if people irritated me the way they seem to irritate you, I’d want nothing to do with them.

And here is the crux of the matter simply stated, although I’m sure it was not your true intention.

What is the purpose of CAF in your estimation, may I ask? Is it to air complaints about HMC? Or is it to bring the Catholic faith to the forefront, to present our beautiful faith to those who are searching for answers?

How do these threads fit in with the very mission of CAF, if in fact, as you say, the ‘traditional’ mindset seems to be so irritating to so many who post here, those who are prompted to try to present an alternate view of the Catholic faith so as not to deter those who are searching from further inquiry?

Do you have any clue how many people who come to CAF looking for answers about the Catholic faith leave disgusted because of the bad taste in the mouth these sites leave, with all their moaning and groaning and bad mouthing the very Church whom these people claim to love so much? What kind of witness to the faith are they anyway?

It is only through the well balanced approach to the faith that people like JR contribute, that allows searchers to understand that the Church is not only made up of people who complain about HMC, but it is in fact mostly made up of people who don’t, and these are the views that are trying to be presented to balance out the ‘whining’ and often times ‘anger’ on these sites by their own adherants, those who want the world to believe they are the ‘true’ Catholics.

CAF is a site that has a mission to reach the world with the truth about our Catholic faith. When I was searching for the truth about Catholicism, I was on a desperate journey and I had to know the truth, I just had to. And back in those days, only a few short years ago, this site had not yet been bombarded with people who did nothing but complain about the Church, and thankfully not, or I may never have looked further. The Catholic Church would have seemed like just another Protestant failure that I had come from, no unity, only strife.

These are things to think on. Everyone on this site is presenting our faith to the world, for the good or the bad, through what is written. Scriptures are very clear about our words and the use of them, there will be an accounting of them.

This will surely fall on ‘deaf ears’, but I’m writing it to let those onlookers, those searchers out there know that what they see here is NOT what they are going to find out there in the ‘real world’ of the Catholic faith at their local parish. There are sure to be those who are unbalanced in both directions, but most practicing and faithful Catholics love, honor, respect and obey the Church and it Holy Father, our papa. They don’t denigrate it’s Magisterium and it’s leaders. Don’t go away thinking otherwise, keep on the journey, you will not be disappointed!