People who don't believe in God are broken

[ReapReason]

I don’t think so.

“Not knowing God”, which you proclaim in the above comment, is distinctively different from “incapable of knowing God”, which you stated below.

You said broken. I said not knowing God. You want to say that brokeness and not knowing is the same thing.

They are not synonymous or interchangeable, Reap.

I never said they were, but you obviously want to imply that I did. I think your memory is broken.

Of course Atheists are capable of knowing God. Every human person is capable of that.

Then the correct word would be ignorant or lacking knowledge, not broken, PRmerger.

 

[PRmerger]

You further implied that this “brokeness” is beyond their control by basically saying that the good news is incoherent to them when they hear it, and this is because they are broken.

No, Reap.

What I stated was that the Good News does not sound very good to atheists because they are broken and don’t know they are.

Just like an offer of a free heart transplant does not sound very good to a dying man who doesn’t know he’s dying.

If something is broken it clearly implies that the object in question can no-longer function as intended.

'zactly.

Clearly we were “intended” to know God and love him.

This makes the word Broken problematic both as an analogy and as a literal representation of Atheism.

I don’t see that. I think it’s a great descriptor, provided that there are knowledgeable Catholics who can provide apologia for the Catholic understanding of brokenness.

This to me is very poor apologetics, because It would seem that Atheists are incapable of knowing God unless they are first fixed.

They are not receptive to the Good News because they don’t know that they’re broken.

Just like medicine doesn’t sound very good to you if you don’t even know you’re sick.

This “fixing” evidently cannot be provided by quoting the gospel, as you yourself have ruled that out as ineffectual.

Huh?

 

[PRmerger]

You agreed that they are atheists (lack knowledge of God) because they are broken,

Nope. Didn’t say that at all.

I think there are a multitude of reasons why people are atheists.

because they are broken the gospel truth is incoherent to them.

Nope. Didn’t say that either.

I said that since they don’t know that they’re broken the medicine we offer doesn’t seem very palatable to them.

So why on Gods green earth would you expect them to know or understand the Gospel truth?

Anyone with the ability to reason can know and understand the Gospel truth, Reap.

Can’t you see the problem?

I think the problem is that you’re not reading my posts.

 

[PRmerger]

You said broken. I said not knowing God. You want to say that brokeness and not knowing is the same thing.

Nope.

 

[PRmerger]

I never said they were, but you obviously want to imply that I did. I think your memory is broken.

Perhaps if you re-read my posts you will understand better.

Sometimes reading slowly helps.

Then the correct word would be ignorant or lacking knowledge, not broken, PRmerger.

So you are saying “people who don’t believe in God are ignorant or lacking in knowledge.”

I wouldn’t say that. I think lots of atheists have great knowledge of the Good News. It just doesn’t sound good to them because they don’t know that they are broken.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Anyone with the ability to reason can know and understand the Gospel truth, Reap.

What is your take on Rom 8:
29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.

Is it more about intellectual understanding, or an intuitive notion that is more fundamental than the English words we use to describe God? If God reveals Himself, how can we resist. If He doesn’t, how can they reason their way around God’s non-call and act as if they are called?

Alan

 

[ReapReason]

No, Reap.

What I stated was that the Good News does not sound very good to atheists because they are broken and don’t know they are.

If they don’t know that they are broken, and in fact think they are fine as they are, then your suggestion will sound incoherent to them. There is no reason for them to believe anything you say. Like you said, they don’t know because they are broken; not because they do not have evidence. There is a difference between ignorance and brokeness. An ignorant person can still learn if the correct evidence is given to them. A person that is broken as such that suggestions appear meaningless when applied to them personally, will not understand what your are talking about. It will sound like nonsense. Such a person is therefore incapable of understanding you because they are broken. They will never understand unless they are fixed, and are therefore not responsible for not knowing God.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

When I was an atheist, I didn’t see why I should believe people who told me I was broken.

“Here, have a better life. Believe everything we tell you as absolute fact, and if you’re lucky you won’t be tortured forever in eternity – based on the decision of God who Loves You. By the way, you’re broken and miserable and you need us to fix you – and by the way what can you do for us?”

Sounded like Bad News to me. No good bait for this fish to swallow.

Alan

 

[ReapReason]

Perhaps if you re-read my posts you will understand better.

Sometimes reading slowly helps.

So you are saying “people who don’t believe in God are ignorant or lacking in knowledge.”

I wouldn’t say that. I think lots of atheists have great knowledge of the Good News. It just doesn’t sound good to them because they don’t know that they are broken.

PRmerger, I could have knowledge of an alleged true story and yet not know whether or not its a fantasy. That doesn’t make me broken. That just means l lack evidence of it being true.

 

[ReapReason]

Nope. Didn’t say that at all.

I think there are a multitude of reasons why people are atheists.

 

[ReapReason]

No, Reap.

Just like medicine doesn’t sound very good to you if you don’t even know you’re sick.

If I don’t know that I am sick, its because I am ignorant of that fact. It doesn’t mean that I am broken.

 

[ReapReason]

When I was an atheist, I didn’t see why I should believe people who told me I was broken.

“Here, have a better life. Believe everything we tell you as absolute fact, and if you’re lucky you won’t be tortured forever in eternity – based on the decision of God who Loves You. By the way, you’re broken and miserable and you need us to fix you – and by the way what can you do for us?”

Sounded like Bad News to me. No good bait for this fish to swallow.

Alan

 

[ReapReason]

“People who don’t believe in God are broken.”

The above quote can only imply one thing; people are atheists because they are broken.

This is different to saying, “somebody is broken but they don’t know about it”.

The former is causal, the latter is epistemological.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I ticked ‘agree’ but I’d rather use the term blind (like another poster here). it is amazing to hear former atheists speak about their conversion experience. When a new world opens up to people they suddenly realise how blind they were, how they only saw a fraction of the world. So being broken is a realisation about our human condition they also come to understand.

 

[ReapReason]

I ticked ‘agree’ but I’d rather use the term blind (like another poster here). it is amazing to hear former atheists speak about their conversion experience. When a new world opens up to people they suddenly realise how blind they were, how they only saw a fraction of the world. So being broken is a realisation about our human condition they also come to understand.

In other words, they did not know there was a problem. Correct?

 

[PRmerger]

If I don’t know that I am sick, its because I am ignorant of that fact. It doesn’t mean that I am broken.

[SIGN]Egg-zactly, Reap. Exactly. [/SIGN]



Atheists aren’t dismissing the Good News because they’re broken. They dismiss it because they don’t know that they’re broken.

If one is not aware that he has cancer, he doesn’t need to hear that there is a cure for it at the hospital down the street.

If one is not aware that he is sinning, he doesn’t need to hear the Good News of the forgiveness of sins.

 

[PRmerger]

“People who don’t believe in God are broken.”

The above quote can only imply one thing; people are atheists because they are broken.

Nope.

Perhaps you were unaware that Catholicism proclaims that Catholics are broken, too?

Thus, by your reasoning we would say that people are Catholics because they are broken.

Yet,everyone who’s broken (that is, all of humanity, with the exception of Jesus and Mary, of course) can’t be both atheist and Catholic.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger, I could have knowledge of an alleged true story and yet not know whether or not its a fantasy. That doesn’t make me broken. That just means l lack evidence of it being true.

Sure.

There’s nothing in what you’ve said that I disagree with.

 

[PRmerger]

If they don’t know that they are broken, and in fact think they are fine as they are, then your suggestion will sound incoherent to them. There is no reason for them to believe anything you say.

Right!

Like you said, they don’t know because they are broken;

Nope. Never said that. :nope:

There is a difference between ignorance and brokeness.

'zactly.

An ignorant person can still learn if the correct evidence is given to them.

Yep. If he wants to learn, of course.

A person that is broken as such that suggestions appear meaningless when applied to them personally, will not understand what your are talking about.It will sound like nonsense. Such a person is therefore incapable of understanding you because they are broken.

That’s absolutely not true.

Broken folks understand the Gospel all the time. It happens every single day.

They will never understand unless they are fixed, and are therefore not responsible for not knowing God.

If that’s your position, it’s an illogical one, Reap. For reality bears out how false your paradigm is: broken people find God every single day.

 

[PRmerger]

What is your take on Rom 8:
29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.

Is it more about intellectual understanding, or an intuitive notion that is more fundamental than the English words we use to describe God?

Well, like most Catholic answers it’s both/and, Alan. Both/and.

Atheists can reason themselves into the Church. Or they can answer the longing in the heart, find the peace that surpasses understanding by saying Yes to that tug on their heart–some have said just by entering a Church and kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament that they received this knowledge of God and converted from their atheism at that very moment.

If God reveals Himself, how can we resist.

Oh, I think it’s very clear that we can resist, Alan.

If He doesn’t, how can they reason their way around God’s non-call and act as if they are called?

Alan

God, of course, has revealed himself to them.