People Who Reported Seeing Nothing at Fatima in 1917

[Weareyoung]

I’ve heard claims from atheists that some people at Fatima during the miracle of the Sun in 1917 reported seeing nothing and that this “totally debunks the miracle.”

I believe that some people did see nothing but the atheist tries to exaggerate the numbers to the point where the power of suggestion would make people believe they had seen it when they also saw nothing.

Does anyone know the source for this? How many in the crowd saw nothing relative to those who actually witnessed the phenomenon?

What should a Catholic make of this?

If I had a sense of the accurate numbers of people who reported seeing nothing compared to the crowd, I’m sure this wouldn’t be an issue.

 

[StudentMI]

What should a Catholic make of this?

A Catholic is not obliged by faith to believe in the occurrences at Fatima. It is not part of the deposit of the faith. It is not necessary to salvation. If a Catholic decides the evidence doesn’t point to anything occuring at Fatima, that is perfectly fine and not a sin.

As for why some people saw nothing at Fatima, the answer is they saw nothing. Simple as that. I myself am ‘agnostic’ about Fatima. There’s a lot of issues about it. It doesn’t impact my faith one bit.

 

[Weareyoung]

A Catholic is not obliged by faith to believe in the occurrences at Fatima. It is not part of the deposit of the faith. It is not necessary to salvation. If a Catholic decides the evidence doesn’t point to anything occuring at Fatima, that is perfectly fine and not a sin.

As for why some people saw nothing at Fatima, the answer is they saw nothing. Simple as that. I myself am ‘agnostic’ about Fatima. There’s a lot of issues about it. It doesn’t impact my faith one bit.

The point is: Fatima is the most powerful witness to the Catholic Faith in modern times and was approved by the Church. Should be a powerful tool in converting atheists. Has all the signs of authenticity and it is not heresy to reject it but at the same time it is totally unreasonable to reject it. A Catholic doesn’t have to accept it but I have no idea why they wouldn’t. What are the problems you have with Fatima out of curiosity?

 

[StudentMI]

The point is: Fatima is the most powerful witness to the Catholic Faith in modern times and was approved by the Church. Should be a powerful tool in converting atheists. Has all the signs of authenticity and it is not heresy to reject it but at the same time it is totally unreasonable to reject it. A Catholic doesn’t have to accept it but I have no idea why they wouldn’t. What are the problems you have with Fatima out of curiosity?

In bold are objective statements. In italics are your subjective judgements.

The problems I have with Fatima? I would say but am I allowed to on here without getting banned or cited for saying things about a future saint? I’ll leave it at this: staring at the sun is not good for your eyes.

 

[Weareyoung]

Actually I’ve slightly revised my position on this. The seers being canonized would impact your faith. The Church cannot canonize people who misled people into such a delusion. Canonizations are infallible.

 

[Weareyoung]

In bold are objective statements. In italics are your subjective judgements.

The problems I have with Fatima? I would say but am I allowed to on here without getting banned or cited for saying things about a future saint? I’ll leave it at this: staring at the sun is not good for your eyes.

Please PM me what the basic issues are then. I’m curious about your perspective.

 

[StudentMI]

Actually I’ve slightly revised my position on this. The seers being canonized would impact your faith. The Church cannot canonize people who misled people into such a delusion. Canonizations are infallible.

And yet canonized saints themselves are not infallible. There was a recent thread where I believe someone cited St. Alphonsus Ligouri who said that God wouldn’t forgive some people even if they repented or something? Might be wrong saint or wrong statement. Point is, that itself is not truth. Saints can make wrong statements. Saints can do wrong. Etc

 

[Weareyoung]

What are “all the signs of authenticity”?

.

I didn’t post this to argue with skeptics. If I wanted the skeptical opinions I would have posted in an atheist forum. However I am already well aware of the claims skeptics make and find them to be dodging the real issues.

I am mostly interested in learning Catholic opinions in this thread. I am also curious about the posts of Catholics who don’t accept the miracle because I have never heard a professing Catholic take the position before that Fatima is doubtful.

Please don’t interpret this as rude. I’m just being honest. I don’t have a problem with you posting objections. I just am unlikely to respond since it’s not what I asked for in the first post.

 

[StudentMI]

I didn’t post this to argue with skeptics. If I wanted the skeptical opinions I would have posted in an atheist forum. However I am already well aware of the claims skeptics make and find them to be dodging the real issues.

I am mostly interested in learning Catholic opinions in this thread. I am also curious about the posts of Catholics who don’t accept the miracle because I have never heard a professing Catholic take the position before that Fatima is doubtful.

Please don’t interpret this as rude. I’m just being honest. I don’t have a problem with you posting objections. I just am unlikely to respond since it’s not what I asked for in the first post.

Dude. Honest or not that was rude. DaddyGirl has as much right to post here as anyone else. If you don’t want to respond then don’t. But if you wanted only Catholic responses then why not ask your local parish’s Bible study or rosary group?

 

[Weareyoung]

Dude. Honest or not that was rude. DaddyGirl has as much right to post here as anyone else. If you don’t want to respond then don’t. But if you wanted only Catholic responses then why not ask your local parish’s Bible study or rosary group?

The point is I don’t want a huge debate fostered on this thread. That wasn’t why I posted it. It’s like asking about advice about the Sacrament of Confession and then a Protestant comes saying things like how confession is unscriptural, etc. It’s not helpful. I do look at both sides of the argument and people can post whatever they want. I’m just giving my opinion of what I’m asking for on this thread. People can post whatever they want but if it’s not what I asked for I can’t promise I will interact with it.

 

[Weareyoung]

? I don’t think you are arguing with skeptics…

Yes…this is what you said in your first post…about skeptics exaggerating the number of people who didn’t see the sun dancing.
But you were asking for more information on this, were you not?

Oh, you didn’t say that. Only Catholics should give their opinions.

It sounded by your first post that you were looking for information on accurate numbers of who saw what. I had reporting and research on that, as I said, and was looking that up for you.

But…weren’t you also wondering in subsequent post why the story is not “a powerful tool for converting atheists”?
That’s a question a Catholic may not be able to answer, fyi.

I posted objections?

(where??)

.

Misunderstanding, it’s late and I’m tired and I guess I’m not thinking right. I was under the false impression you were trying to start an argument.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I’ve heard claims from atheists that some people at Fatima during the miracle of the Sun in 1917 reported seeing nothing and that this “totally debunks the miracle.”

Oh, I’m sure they do. Some folks love using anecdotal evidence when it suits their worldview.

 

[Estevao]

I have not heard this yet, although I remember seeing a skeptical book on fatima that at least seemed somewhat scholarly in my university’s library. I should try and browse it someday, I find Fatima very interesting. I believe it is a great miracle. As to these claims, I think I would have to see their origin to judge them.

I have always wanted to really get into fatima, into the primary sources even, as I speak portuguese. There are many protestant scholars who write books defending the Resurrection on historical grounds, but I think there could be a similar book made about Fatima for our times.

I would say that I think it is always possible for the putative skeptic to reject any supernatural claim. There are literally an unlimited number of ways to explain away any potential miracle, such as the Resurrection. I have seen many internet atheists countenance aliens being behind a miracle such as that, or other theistic proofs like the very clear fine-tuning of the universe.

 

[Weareyoung]

? I don’t think you are arguing with skeptics…

Yes…this is what you said in your first post…about skeptics exaggerating the number of people who didn’t see the sun dancing.
But you were asking for more information on this, were you not?

Oh, you didn’t say that. Only Catholics should give their opinions.

It sounded by your first post that you were looking for information on accurate numbers of who saw what. I had reporting and research on that, as I said, and was looking that up for you.

But…weren’t you also wondering in subsequent post why the story is not “a powerful tool for converting atheists”?
That’s a question a Catholic may not be able to answer, fyi.

I posted objections?

(where??)

.

I don’t recall saying Fatima may not be a powerful tool to convert atheists but rather I asserted that it is.

 

[Samwise21]

Try this:

markmallett.com/blog/2010/09/09/debunking-the-sun-miracle-skeptics/

 

[StudentMI]

I would say that I think it is always possible for the putative skeptic to reject any supernatural claim. There are literally an unlimited number of ways to explain away any potential miracle, such as the Resurrection. I have seen many internet atheists countenance aliens being behind a miracle such as that, or other theistic proofs like the very clear fine-tuning of the universe.

The difference being a faithful Catholic does not have to believe in the miracle of the sun. Comparing that to the Resurrection is theologically wrong.

 

[Weareyoung]

The difference being a faithful Catholic does not have to believe in the miracle of the sun. Comparing that to the Resurrection is theologically wrong.

You are correct. The difference being that disproving the resurrection disproves Catholicism.
At the same time disproving Fatima has no bearing on Catholicism. However if you prove either miracle it’s obviously proof for Catholicism.

 

[StudentMI]

You are correct. The difference being that disproving the resurrection disproves Catholicism.
At the same time disproving Fatima has no bearing on Catholicism. However if you prove either miracle it’s obviously proof for Catholicism.

True.

 

[Dorothy]

I didn’t post this to argue with skeptics. If I wanted the skeptical opinions I would have posted in an atheist forum. However I am already well aware of the claims skeptics make and find them to be dodging the real issues.

I am mostly interested in learning Catholic opinions in this thread. I am also curious about the posts of Catholics who don’t accept the miracle because I have never heard a professing Catholic take the position before that Fatima is doubtful.

Please don’t interpret this as rude. I’m just being honest. I don’t have a problem with you posting objections. I just am unlikely to respond since it’s not what I asked for in the first post.

I do believe in the private revelation of our Lady of Fatima, the miracle of the sun, and what Our Blessed Mother told to the children. Obviously the sun did not remove itself from where it was, only those to whom God desired it to be seen saw it. If some said they did not, then for whatever reason, known only to God, they did not see it.

Our Blessed Mother made predictions about the early deaths of the two younger children, now St. Jacinta, and St. Francisco. That did occur.

Our Blessed Mother’s plea for prayer, penance, and doing what we should be doing for the love of God was accepted by many, and ignored by many.

The “signs” (the unknown light) that were predicted and the warnings about wars were certainly right on target.

We need to pray for the naysayers for conversion of their hearts. They don’t have to necessarily believe in Fatima, but it is obvious that many conversions are needed all over the world.

 

[Memaw]

In bold are objective statements. In italics are your subjective judgements.

The problems I have with Fatima? I would say but am I allowed to on here without getting banned or cited for saying things about a future saint? I’ll leave it at this: staring at the sun is not good for your eyes.

In my opinion, to say “A Catholic doesn’t HAVE to believe it” is just a cop out!!
The Catholic Church has NEVER said a Catholic HAS to believe any devotion,( Sacred Heart, Divine Mercy, etc) They are not on the same level as a Doctrine and that is the only reason why the Church doesn’t say that. IT is NOT because the Church thinks they are worthless or OK to ignore! It is wrong to ignore God anytime he reaches out to us as HE has at Fatima and Lourdes, Guadalupe etc. If the Church has found it “Worthy of Belief” then we know it is free of error. To brush it aside like it’s not important is very foolish for our own self and for the world. Most of the things Our Lady warned us about at Fatima have already happened. (Wars, Russia spreading her errors, annihilation of nations, loss of modesty etc.)The “proof is in the pudding” as they used to say.

As for the MIRACLE of the Sun being harmful, it was just that, a MIRACLE and not meant to harm anyone’s eyes. Maybe you should read up on what actually took place at Fatima 100 years ago. Contact the Blue Army.com. Trust GOD and Trust Our Lady!! God Bless, Memaw