People Who Reported Seeing Nothing at Fatima in 1917

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Memaw said:
In my opinion, to say “A Catholic doesn’t HAVE to believe it” is just a cop out!!
The Catholic Church has NEVER said a Catholic HAS to believe any devotion,( Sacred Heart, Divine Mercy, etc) They are not on the same level as a Doctrine and that is the only reason why the Church doesn’t say that. IT is NOT because the Church thinks they are worthless or OK to ignore! It is wrong to ignore God anytime he reaches out to us as HE has at Fatima and Lourdes, Guadalupe etc. If the Church has found it “Worthy of Belief” then we know it is free of error. To brush it aside like it’s not important is very foolish for our own self and for the world. Most of the things Our Lady warned us about at Fatima have already happened. (Wars, Russia spreading her errors, annihilation of nations, loss of modesty etc.)The “proof is in the pudding” as they used to say.

As for the MIRACLE of the Sun being harmful, it was just that, a MIRACLE and not meant to harm anyone’s eyes. Maybe you should read up on what actually took place at Fatima 100 years ago. Contact the Blue Army.com. Trust GOD and Trust Our Lady!! God Bless, Memaw
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As an aside, the Blue Army is now known as the World Apostolate of Fatima.

You can visit the site here: fatimatourforpeace.com/
 
Weareyoung said:
Actually I’ve slightly revised my position on this. The seers being canonized would impact your faith. The Church cannot canonize people who misled people into such a delusion. Canonizations are infallible.
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AMEN!! God Bless, Memaw
 
It’s faith based and personal. It neither proves nor disproves catholicism. Tell your aetheist acquaintances to try and keep up…and if they are non-believers, why do they spend so much time reading about belief?
 
Crusaderbear said:
It’s faith based and personal. It neither proves nor disproves catholicism. Tell your aetheist acquaintances to try and keep up…and if they are non-believers, why do they spend so much time reading about belief?
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I think they know they are missing something, (SOMEONE),but they don’t want to admit it. God Bless, Memaw
 
I don’t have a problem with believing what took place at Fatima…I must admit I’m curious why our Blessed Mother would appear to children with such urgent messages…wouldn’t it be more believable if she had appeared to a Holy person like a priest…a nun…even the Pope himself…like I said…I don’t doubt Fatima…just wondering why children…same at Lourdes…Garabandal…Medjugorje…but I guess our Blessed Mother knows why…
 
Peebo said:
I must admit I’m curious why our Blessed Mother would appear to children with such urgent messages…wouldn’t it be more believable if she had appeared to a Holy person like a priest…a nun…even the Pope himself
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Are you saying that the children were not holy? Do you not think that, much like Mary at the annunciation, God chose these children for a very specific reason? The fact that 2 out of 3 have been canonized speaks volumes on their behalf. Being a priest, nun or pope doesn’t make one holy.
 
StudentMI said:
Dude. Honest or not that was rude. DaddyGirl has as much right to post here as anyone else. If you don’t want to respond then don’t. But if you wanted only Catholic responses then why not ask your local parish’s Bible study or rosary group?
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He wasn’t rude. This is a Catholic discussion forum. The fact that non-Catholics and even atheist can join and post is a polite consideration made by those who run the site.

I don’t blame him one bit for trying to discover a point of faith without having to be challenged by someone who does not hold the faith to be sacred.
 
It’s unreasonable enough for Christians to believe the “miracle of the sun”, let alone non-Christians in general or atheists in particular.
 
Never heard of that before, try to reframe the argument, ask them, what about the people who were atheist who saw, who believed?

Certainly God can refuse to show things to certain people, but what about those who did see? Whether they were atheist or Catholic, their testimony cannot just be ignored.
 
DaddyGirl said:
Except…I wasn’t challenging her.
I was trying to help answer her questions about the reporting of the event. I’m a journalist, researcher and fact-checker by profession and have researched that story in the past.

.
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Yeah, it was a misunderstanding on my part. As long as your goal is not to start a long and drawn out argument I have absolutely no problem with what you’re going to post.

I’m male by the way, not that you had any way of knowing.
 
Weareyoung said:
I’ve heard claims from atheists that some people at Fatima during the miracle of the Sun in 1917 reported seeing nothing and that this “totally debunks the miracle.”

I believe that some people did see nothing but the atheist tries to exaggerate the numbers to the point where the power of suggestion would make people believe they had seen it when they also saw nothing.

Does anyone know the source for this? How many in the crowd saw nothing relative to those who actually witnessed the phenomenon?

What should a Catholic make of this?

If I had a sense of the accurate numbers of people who reported seeing nothing compared to the crowd, I’m sure this wouldn’t be an issue.
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I think I remember reading that Francisco could not hear The Blessed Virgin speak, but the two girls could. He could see her, but not hear her.

If this type of spiritual anomaly exists, why not some people not seeing anything at Fatima that day?
 
AnneElizabeth said:
I think I remember reading that Francisco could not hear The Blessed Virgin speak, but the two girls could. He could see her, but not hear her.

If this type of spiritual anomaly exists, why not some people not seeing anything at Fatima that day?
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That seems like a good point and something to keep in mind. If we agree something happened at Fatima we are definitely not dealing with a natural phenomenon which is why it would be weird in ways like this.
 
Peebo said:
I don’t have a problem with believing what took place at Fatima…I must admit I’m curious why our Blessed Mother would appear to children with such urgent messages…wouldn’t it be more believable if she had appeared to a Holy person like a priest…a nun…even the Pope himself…like I said…I don’t doubt Fatima…just wondering why children…same at Lourdes…Garabandal…Medjugorje…but I guess our Blessed Mother knows why…
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:rotfl:

Funny - this thought …

God chose Abram and Sarai … she laughed at the thought of having a child and encouraged Abraham to have relations with a servant

God chose Moses - who was living a rich life … and many failures in his role …

God chose David - the youngest son, an adulterer and a murderer

God chose Solomon - a man who kept a harem

God chose Mary - a young woman

God chose Peter and Judas - both would deny Him at some point.

God does miraculous things through ordinary nondescript people - old and young and in between - He does this every day in large and small ways … It is folly to say - would not it be better if God went to “a priest…a nun…even the Pope himself?”

Why didn’t Jesus come as the “King of Glory” instead of a baby born in a stable and laid in a cattle feeding box [great theology there - The City of Bread - Bethlehem and a manger where stock feed].

Why did not Jesus go to the High Priest and and other Priests? 🤷

Why not the holiest of the Jewish people - why shepherds and fishermen? 🤷

Because Gods ways are not our ways 😉
 
Weareyoung said:
I don’t follow.
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I think my point can be made by simply getting to the bottom of two questions:
  1. What exactly is supposed to be “miraculous” about the event?
  • There is nothing “miraculous” about a group hallucination. The only way for the event to be a “miracle” is if the sun itself danced.
  1. What exactly is the evidence for the event?
  • Very often, folks make the mistake of thinking that the evidence for the Fatima miracle is that people saw the sun dance. But, the only “evidence” we have are the claims that people saw the sun dance. As such, what needs to be explained is not how folks could see the sun dance, but why they would claim to see the sun dance.
So, we’re being asked to believe that the sun itself shot around through space at incalculable speeds without being seen to do so by hardly anyone, or without destroying any surrounding planets etc., simply because a group of people say they saw the sun do it.

Nobody would believe similar claims on the basis of this sort of evidence, but the exception is made here, and your guess is as good as mine why, although I suspect it’s because of the kind of epistemology promoted within Catholicism.
 
Weareyoung said:
That seems like a good point and something to keep in mind. If we agree something happened at Fatima we are definitely not dealing with a natural phenomenon which is why it would be weird in ways like this.
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Yep! Exactly!

Jesus used mud and spit to cure a blind man. Another time, he merely said to a blind man to be healed, and he was. Why the difference? I won’t claim to know, but I do think that this points to the individual’s care from God- its not so universal as it is precise and exact the type of graces God bestows… Furthermore…

When it comes to anything spiritual or related to belief and faith, there is that saying…

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.”
 
Perplexity said:
I think my point can be made by simply getting to the bottom of two questions:
  1. What exactly is supposed to be “miraculous” about the event?
  • There is nothing “miraculous” about a group hallucination. The only way for the event to be a “miracle” is if the sun itself danced.
  1. What exactly is the evidence for the event?
  • Very often, folks make the mistake of thinking that the evidence for the Fatima miracle is that people saw the sun dance. But, the only “evidence” we have are the claims that people saw the sun dance. As such, what needs to be explained is not how folks could see the sun dance, but why they would claim to see the sun dance.
So, we’re being asked to believe that the sun itself shot around through space at incalculable speeds without being seen to do so by hardly anyone, or without destroying any surrounding planets etc., simply because a group of people say they saw the sun do it.

Nobody would believe similar claims on the basis of this sort of evidence, but the exception is made here, and your guess is as good as mine why, although I suspect it’s because of the kind of epistemology promoted within Catholicism.
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People can group hallucinate? That’s something I’ve never heard before. Kind of like The Emperor’s New Clothes type thing? I thought they (in that story) were merely pretending, therefore, none would actually be able to agree on what they saw if interrogated privately. Exactly how to groups of people hallucinate the same exact thing together?

I don’t think the actual sun danced.

Ha! Evidence… oh geez, no. No evidence of anything of faith. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."… There can be spiritual evidence though- a transformation of the heart and soul, and yes, THAT can be seen, but physical evidence? … would be like looking to see if the ghost of the house used the toilet and forgot to flush. (useless pointless stupid endeavor)
 
Peebo said:
I don’t have a problem with believing what took place at Fatima…I must admit I’m curious why our Blessed Mother would appear to children with such urgent messages…wouldn’t it be more believable if she had appeared to a Holy person like a priest…a nun…even the Pope himself…like I said…I don’t doubt Fatima…just wondering why children…same at Lourdes…Garabandal…Medjugorje…but I guess our Blessed Mother knows why…
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Garabandal and Medjugorje have never been approved and are not supposed to be on these forums. God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
In my opinion, to say “A Catholic doesn’t HAVE to believe it” is just a cop out!!
The Catholic Church has NEVER said a Catholic HAS to believe any devotion,( Sacred Heart, Divine Mercy, etc) They are not on the same level as a Doctrine and that is the only reason why the Church doesn’t say that. IT is NOT because the Church thinks they are worthless or OK to ignore! It is wrong to ignore God anytime he reaches out to us as HE has at Fatima and Lourdes, Guadalupe etc. If the Church has found it “Worthy of Belief” then we know it is free of error. To brush it aside like it’s not important is very foolish for our own self and for the world. Most of the things Our Lady warned us about at Fatima have already happened. (Wars, Russia spreading her errors, annihilation of nations, loss of modesty etc.)The “proof is in the pudding” as they used to say.

As for the MIRACLE of the Sun being harmful, it was just that, a MIRACLE and not meant to harm anyone’s eyes. Maybe you should read up on what actually took place at Fatima 100 years ago. Contact the Blue Army.com. Trust GOD and Trust Our Lady!! God Bless, Memaw
Click to expand...
Where did I ever say they were worthless? Or that the Church considers them worthless? Those are just strawmen.

I could go through what I did before, bolding the objective statements and leaving the subjective ones as they are. I think it’s obvious. And it’s very incorrect of you to say it’s “wrong” to ignore these private devotions.
 
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