People who say "_____ is a Mortal Sin."

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I often see/hear people going and saying things like “sex before marriage is a mortal sin” or “masturbation is a mortal sin” or something similar to that.

And then we have the people going around saying “For it to be a mortal sin it must meet 1. 2. and 3.” (one of those being grave matter).

Many of the times people commit x “mortal sin” they are lacking in the full knowledge aspect. Some might have been brought up thinking the two things I mentioned above are normal.

This leaves the action as a grave matter, and a venial sin. So it would be more accurate to say “___ is a grave matter”, would it not?

This is in no way meaning to diminish the immorality of an action. I just don’t think it’s correct for some Catholics to call people mortal sinners when they aren’t meeting all 3 requirements. I do not see people doing this as much here, but more so in real life.
 
Yes. I think most people, including myself a while back, are used to e.g. the media’s portrayal of sin, something along the lines of, like you said, “____ is a sin.”

So, totally, people should talk about the nature of an action, whether it is gravely immoral or not.
 
Saying “_____ is a mortal sin” is perfectly fine. All it’s saying is that the act in itself is a mortal sin. I mean, yeah, you don’t want to go around to people saying “you’re a mortal sinner” but it seems okay to me to be saying “You have committed a mortal sin.” By saying that you are telling the person that it is a grave matter.

I guess if you really want to be specific then yeah, go for it and say “You have committed a grave act,” and then go on to explain that it is in fact a mortal sin if 1…2…and 3.

Just my humble opinion.
 
laircy said:
I often see/hear people going and saying things like “sex before marriage is a mortal sin” or “masturbation is a mortal sin” or something similar to that.

And then we have the people going around saying “For it to be a mortal sin it must meet 1. 2. and 3.” (one of those being grave matter).

Many of the times people commit x “mortal sin” they are lacking in the full knowledge aspect. Some might have been brought up thinking the two things I mentioned above are normal.

This leaves the action as a grave matter, and a venial sin. So it would be more accurate to say “___ is a grave matter”, would it not?

This is in no way meaning to diminish the immorality of an action. I just don’t think it’s correct for some Catholics to call people mortal sinners when they aren’t meeting all 3 requirements. I do not see people doing this as much here, but more so in real life.
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The correct way to say it is that “______ is grave matter”, as you say. Whether or not something is grave matter is an objective decision. It either is or is not grave. Determining whether ___ is a mortal sin or not is much more subjective.

For example, the use of hormonal contraceptives is grave matter. But there are a number of factors that determine whether or not the use of hormonal contraceptives is a mortal sin or not.

For example, did the person know that the use of hormonal contraceptives is grave matter? It is entirely possible that the person has never been taught that it was grave matter. Many, many priests are absolutely loathe to bring such a subject up in their homilies. Many Religious Education directors are loathe to broach the subject in CCD classes (or even to allow it to be brought up) out of fear that some parents will pull their children from the classes (that is, assuming that the lay RE director even accepts that teaching of the Church: I have met more than a few who don’t). If the person’s parents don’t accept the teaching of Humanae Vitae; if they don’t, they’d likely not bring it up at home (and if those parents in question did bring it up, they’d do so to say that the Church is wrong about that, just like the Church is wrong about female ordination – these parents’ words, not mine)

If the person did not know that the use of hormonal contraceptives was grave matter, the person could not be considered guilty of mortal sin, despite it being grave matter.

Did the person give full consent? Again, not necessarily an easy thing. If a woman was given a Depo-Provera shot in the doctor’s office and the doctor didn’t say what he/she was doing, then consent wasn’t given. If the person was a 12 year old girl and the mother required her to take “the Pill”, consent wasn’t given. If the girl lived in a Red China, and an IUD was inserted by government mandate, she didn’t give her consent. Consent must be freely given.

This is actually something that I go through with my 7th Grade CCD class every year. They usually have a hard time understanding it in the beginning because many of them are brought up with the “that’s a mortal sin” way of thinking rather than “that’s grave matter, now did I know it was grave matter and did I freely consent” way of thinking.
 
markomalley said:
The correct way to say it is that “______ is grave matter”, as you say.
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Wrong!

If it is a mortal sin than you must say it is a mortal sin.

The first Spiritual Work of Mercy is to ‘Instruct the Uninformed’.

You must explain that something is a mortal sin and why and explain the requirements.

It is then up to that person to confess as to whether they performed a grave or mortal sin and you have informed them for the future rather than keeping them ignorant.
 
Nelka said:
Wrong!

If it is a mortal sin than you must say it is a mortal sin.

The first Spiritual Work of Mercy is to ‘Instruct the Uninformed’.

You must explain that something is a mortal sin and why and explain the requirements.

It is then up to that person to confess as to whether they performed a grave or mortal sin and you have informed them for the future rather than keeping them ignorant.
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Nelka,

With due respect, your post either indicates that you did not read what I wrote or you need a significant amount of additional catechesis.

From the catechism:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

So there are three conditions that must be met in order for something to be a mortal sin:
  1. The object must be grave matter
  2. The act is committed with full knowledge
  3. The act is committed with deliberate consent.
If all three of those items are not present, it is simply not a mortal sin.

That’s why it is incorrect to respond to a question, “is _____ a mortal sin?” You can give a concrete answer whether it is grave matter or not. But unless you probe deeper, you cannot answer #2 or #3 above.

A really easy example to illustrate this point:

I think we can all agree that sexual intercourse outside the context of marriage (and I mean real marriage, not the homosexual simulation of marriage) is grave matter. But is it ALWAYS a mortal sin?

Maybe you could answer that question.
 
What people mean is the *objectively *it is a mortal sin. They are stating a fact.

They are not talking about subjective situations. They aren’t calling people “mortal sinners”. Lighten up.
 
Mortal sin, Serious sin, Grave sin

The Church uses these terms in two senses (and objective if you will and a subjective). And in both senses the terms grave sin, mortal sin, and serious sin are interchangeable. But they can bring out different aspects etc (and part of use has to do with how it is used in an English sentence).

And these three terms are used in* two senses*

Here are the two senses:

1. Objective sense

Murder is a grave sin.
Murder is a serious sin.
Murder is a mortal sin.

(all three mean the same)

this is one way the Church use the term. Talking about the ‘moral object’ of the act or the ‘objective kind of sin’. Referring to the object itself. Like if I said…do not commit murder for that is a mortal sin.

Then there is this way…
**
2. Subjective sense**

I committed the grave sin of Murder
I committed the serious sin of Murder
I committed the mortal sin of Murder

(all three mean the same)

This is speaking of when the thing I committed is grave matter …done with full knowledge and deliberate (complete) consent.

Both are true. Both are ways the terms get used in Church documents
When speaking with someone as to what a mortal (etc) sin is…that is when it is committed. I prefer to use the language of “grave matter”. But it is still true that the thing itself can be said to be “a mortal sin” in the sense that murder is a mortal sin in itself…objectively.

Ordinarily I tell people “such and such is a grave matter” for mortal sin and if one does it with full knowledge and complete consent…then one commits a mortal sin.

But sometimes is better to say “fornication is a mortal sin” etc for it brings the point home…and some will not know what “grave matter for mortal sin” means …

Or I use both terms and explain.

It all depends on who I may be talking with and how much time I have…

As to people being sinners…or committing mortal sin…one can mean in the objectively sinful sense. While we can not judge the interior state of a person for appearance can be disceptive…(and certainly not in the way Jesus tells us to “judge not”) …we *can *state that they are acting in a gravely sinful way …or what they are doing is mortally sinful…or that it is manifest grave sin etc…
 
markomalley said:
Nelka,

With due respect, your post either indicates that you did not read what I wrote or you need a significant amount of additional catechesis.

From the catechism:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

So there are three conditions that must be met in order for something to be a mortal sin:
  1. The object must be grave matter
  2. The act is committed with full knowledge
  3. The act is committed with deliberate consent.
If all three of those items are not present, it is simply not a mortal sin.

That’s why it is incorrect to respond to a question, “is _____ a mortal sin?” You can give a concrete answer whether it is grave matter or not. But unless you probe deeper, you cannot answer #2 or #3 above.

A really easy example to illustrate this point:

I think we can all agree that sexual intercourse outside the context of marriage (and I mean real marriage, not the homosexual simulation of marriage) is grave matter. But is it ALWAYS a mortal sin?

Maybe you could answer that question.
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The act of sexual intercourse outside of marriage is always a mortal sin.

If somebody doesn’t know this, it doesn’t change the mortality of the sin, it just changes the soul’s condemnation to Hell.

Murder is always wrong, if somebody does not know this, it doesn’t change the fact that murder is always wrong. It would just change their sentence.

Maybe I am not saying it right, let me know if so and I will try again.
 
I used to get confused about this as well until someone cleared it up for me. Unfortunately, I’m not as good at explaining as he was. :-/ But I’ll try…

A sin can be “grave matter” or not. For a sin to be a “mortal sin”, it must first be “grave matter” and then be done with full knowledge and consent of the will.

Grave, serious, mortal…are the same thing in this case. Grave matter = mortal matter = serious matter.

The correct way to say it is, “_____ is grave matter”; and if committed with full consent and knowledge it is then “grave/mortal sin”. Grave matter that is committed without full consent or knowledge is still “grave matter”, but not “grave/mortal sin”.

To use the most recent example above: Sex outside of marriage is always grave matter. If done with full consent and knowledge, it is grave/mortal sin. Without full consent/knowledge, it is still grave matter, but not mortal sin.
 
ahs said:
I used to get confused about this as well until someone cleared it up for me. Unfortunately, I’m not as good at explaining as he was. :-/ But I’ll try…

A sin can be “grave matter” or not. For a sin to be a “mortal sin”, it must first be “grave matter” and then be done with full knowledge and consent of the will.

Grave, serious, mortal…are the same thing in this case. Grave matter = mortal matter = serious matter.

The correct way to say it is, “_____ is grave matter”; and if committed with full consent and knowledge it is then “grave/mortal sin”. Grave matter that is committed without full consent or knowledge is still “grave matter”, but not “grave/mortal sin”.
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I think you explained it well!
 
ahs said:
I used to get confused about this as well until someone cleared it up for me. Unfortunately, I’m not as good at explaining as he was. :-/ But I’ll try…

A sin can be “grave matter” or not. For a sin to be a “mortal sin”, it must first be “grave matter” and then be done with full knowledge and consent of the will.

Grave, serious, mortal…are the same thing in this case. Grave matter = mortal matter = serious matter.

The correct way to say it is, “_____ is grave matter”; and if committed with full consent and knowledge it is then “grave/mortal sin”. Grave matter that is committed without full consent or knowledge is still “grave matter”, but not “grave/mortal sin”.
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One could also simply say “_______is a mortal sin”.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8687570&postcount=8
 
Nelka said:
**The act of sexual intercourse outside of marriage is always a mortal sin.
**
If somebody doesn’t know this, it doesn’t change the mortality of the sin, it just changes the soul’s condemnation to Hell.

Murder is always wrong, if somebody does not know this, it doesn’t change the fact that murder is always wrong. It would just change their sentence.

Maybe I am not saying it right, let me know if so and I will try again.
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“Bless me Father for I have sinned…I was raped, and sexual intercourse outside of marriage is always a mortal sin.” :rolleyes:

Try again.
 
Nelka said:
There is nothing wrong with sex inside a marriage.
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Perhaps you do not understand the question.

An annullment indicates there was never a valid marriage.

So was the sex engaged in during the course of this invalid marriage a sin?

Your statement that “The act of sexual intercourse outside of marriage is always a mortal sin.” would seem to indicate that the couple whose marriage was annulled had engaged in mortal sin.
 
Bookcat said:
Mortal sin, Serious sin, Grave sin

The Church uses these terms in two senses (and objective if you will and a subjective). And in both senses the terms grave sin, mortal sin, and serious sin are interchangeable. But they can bring out different aspects etc (and part of use has to do with how it is used in an English sentence).

And these three terms are used in* two senses*

Here are the two senses:

1. Objective sense

Murder is a grave sin.
Murder is a serious sin.
Murder is a mortal sin.

(all three mean the same)

this is one way the Church use the term. Talking about the ‘moral object’ of the act or the ‘objective kind of sin’. Referring to the object itself. Like if I said…do not commit murder for that is a mortal sin.

Then there is this way…
**
2. Subjective sense**

I committed the grave sin of Murder
I committed the serious sin of Murder
I committed the mortal sin of Murder

(all three mean the same)

This is speaking of when the thing I committed is grave matter …done with full knowledge and deliberate (complete) consent.

Both are true. Both are ways the terms get used in Church documents
When speaking with someone as to what a mortal (etc) sin is…that is when it is committed. I prefer to use the language of “grave matter”. But it is still true that the thing itself can be said to be “a mortal sin” in the sense that murder is a mortal sin in itself…objectively.

Ordinarily I tell people “such and such is a grave matter” for mortal sin and if one does it with full knowledge and complete consent…then one commits a mortal sin.

But sometimes is better to say “fornication is a mortal sin” etc for it brings the point home…and some will not know what “grave matter for mortal sin” means …

Or I use both terms and explain.

It all depends on who I may be talking with and how much time I have…

As to people being sinners…or committing mortal sin…one can mean in the objectively sinful sense. While we can not judge the interior state of a person for appearance can be disceptive…(and certainly not in the way Jesus tells us to “judge not”) …we *can *state that they are acting in a gravely sinful way …or what they are doing is mortally sinful…or that it is manifest grave sin etc…
Click to expand...
 
vz71 said:
Perhaps you do not understand the question.

An annullment indicates there was never a valid marriage.

So was the sex engaged in during the course of this invalid marriage a sin?

Your statement that “The act of sexual intercourse outside of marriage is always a mortal sin.” would seem to indicate that the couple whose marriage was annulled had engaged in mortal sin.
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You don’t understand a decree of nullity. There was a legal marriage, there was even, usually at least from one party, the intent to engage in a valid marriage.

Are you going to tell us that children born during a marriage which the parents later receive a decree of nullity for are, thus, 'bastards?" I don’t think so. . .
 
In Nelka’s defense, where a woman is raped, certainly the RAPIST is engaging in mortal sin, don’t you agree? The rape is grave matter and is grossly wrong. The ACT of the rape is wrong. The rapist is wrong. The person being raped is a victim of a person committing a gravely wrong action, which happens to be a sexual action outside of marriage. And FWIW, if the person is being raped by her spouse --in the marriage- that is a grave wrong as well.

So all sexual intercourse inside a marriage is not necessarily always good. . . but the exception involves not the sexual act itself, but the intent. The intent to rape, even if between a lawfully married couple, is WRONG. It perverts a good thing (sexual action which by God’s intent is to be a LOVING uniative and procreative action between a husband and wife).

Rape is a grave evil, but not because it is ‘sex’ (as though ‘sex’ in itself were evil). Any misuse of sexual relations, in or out of marriage, is wrong.

It is simply far more common for sexual actions outside of marriage to be gravely wrong, at least for ONE party (the rapist, if the sex is through rape), and often for BOTH parties (if both parties are consenting to the sex but are not married, or not married to each other.)
 
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