People who say "_____ is a Mortal Sin."

[Bookcat]

I think you meant a “putative” marriage, although I suppose to some in such a situation it might have seemed like punishment, otherwise they would not have sought an annulment

tyopppo

 

[Bookcat]

I think you meant a “putative” marriage, although I suppose to some in such a situation it might have seemed like punishment, otherwise they would not have sought an annulment

It is of course simplest to call it exactly what it is… “grave matter” or a “grave sin”.

Some may get confused and think grave sin and mortal sin are different things.

They are not.

So calling it mortal sin is also calling it exactly what it is.

Mortal sin = grave sin = serious sin

 

[nickybr38]

Some may get confused and think grave sin and mortal sin are different things.

They are not.

So calling it mortal sin is also calling it exactly what it is.

Mortal sin = grave sin = serious sin

They are different levels of the same thing but a grave sin committed without full knowledge is different then a mortal sin. At least that’s what I’ve come to understand. It CANNOT be mortal unless you understand it’s severity. In which case it damages the soul but is not a direct rebellion against God.

 

[OraLabora]

Some may get confused and think grave sin and mortal sin are different things.

They are not.

So calling it mortal sin is also calling it exactly what it is.

Mortal sin = grave sin = serious sin

Sighhh. I give up

 

[Bookcat]

They are different levels of the same thing but a grave sin committed without full knowledge is different then a mortal sin. At least that’s what I’ve come to understand. It CANNOT be mortal unless you understand it’s severity. In which case it damages the soul but is not a direct rebellion against God.

It cannot be grave sin without the needed knowledge and deliberate consent.

Grave sin is mortal sin and mortal sin is grave sin.

The terms are interchangible: mortal sin =serious sin = grave sin.

 

[nickybr38]

It cannot be grave sin without the needed knowledge and deliberate consent.

Grave sin is mortal sin and mortal sin is grave sin.

The terms are interchangible: mortal sin =serious sin = grave sin.

No…

A mortal sin must meet three criteria as is demonstrated here: saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

If there are THREE criteria that means they are all separated from each other. So I can commit a sin without knowing it is grave matter but then it is a VENIAL sin and not a mortal sin because all three criteria of a mortal sin are not met. Therefore there must be a differentiation between grave and mortal.

Grave matter does not = mortal sin unless full knowledge is involved.

Phew. At least that’s how I understand the explanation of Mortal Sin.

 

[Bookcat]

No…

:

Yes.

Please see the post on the first page.

 

[Bookcat]

To commit A mortal sin (grave sin -serious sin --they mean the same thing) must meet three criteria as is demonstrated here: saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html (I do not recommend that link due some distinctions-corrections needing to be made…but that is a different discussion…anyhow look to the Church documents themselves)

If there are THREE criteria that means they are all separated from each other. So I can commit a sin without knowing it is grave matter but then it is a VENIAL sin and not a mortal sin (grave sin/ serious sin) because all three criteria of a mortal sin are not met. Therefore there must be a differentiation between grave matter and committing a mortal sin (grave sin, serious sin).

Grave matter does not = committing mortal sin -serious sin-grave sin unless full knowledge and deliberate consent is involved.

 

[nickybr38]

Bookcat:
So… you’re saying we’re saying the same thing but in different ways then? Pardon me for not using proper terminology but grave matter does not = mortal sin? That’s what I was saying and apparently, considering your corrections, that’s what you’re saying too. No point continuing on then if we’re in agreement!

 

[Bookcat]

So… you’re saying we’re saying the same thing but in different ways then? Pardon me for not using proper terminology but grave matter does not = mortal sin? That’s what I was saying and apparently, considering your corrections, that’s what you’re saying too. No point continuing on then if we’re in agreement!

Right one needs the other two aspects too.

The more recent discussion was basically around the terms.

Some confusion at times can occasion the thinking that mortal sin and grave sin are different things. Where as they are the same.

 

[AHapka]

Some may get confused and think grave sin and mortal sin are different things.

They are not.

So calling it mortal sin is also calling it exactly what it is.

Mortal sin = grave sin = serious sin

We are talking about mortal sin and grave matter.

Not sure what you are talking about with grave sin???

But grave matter DOES NOT equal mortal sin. Grave matter is one of three things that needs to be present for mortal sin to exist. It is the clear teaching of the Church. And we are bound under Holy Obedience to accept it.

 

[Bookcat]

We are talking about mortal sin and grave matter.

Not sure what you are talking about with grave sin???

But grave matter DOES NOT equal mortal sin. Grave matter is one of three things that needs to be present for mortal sin to exist. It is the clear teaching of the Church. And we are bound under Holy Obedience to accept it.

Please read the above posts I posted (not saying such)

 

[nickybr38]

We are talking about mortal sin and grave matter.

Not sure what you are talking about with grave sin???

But grave matter DOES NOT equal mortal sin. Grave matter is one of three things that needs to be present for mortal sin to exist. It is the clear teaching of the Church. And we are bound under Holy Obedience to accept it.

I think because people (myself included) sometimes mix up and say grave sin instead of grave matter. She was just insisting on using proper terminology to avoid confusion.

 

[Bookcat]

She

He… :tiphat:

 

[nickybr38]

He… :tiphat:

MAN! You are just correcting me left and right today…

Hahaha.

 

[Bookcat]

MAN! You are just correcting me left and right today…

Hahaha.

No worries…my wife corrects me more… hee hee

 

[Bookcat]

Mortal sin, Serious sin, Grave sin

The Church uses these terms in two senses (and objective if you will and a subjective). And in both senses the terms grave sin, mortal sin, and serious sin are interchangeable. But they can bring out different aspects etc (and part of use has to do with how it is used in an English sentence).

And these three terms are used in* two senses*

Here are the two senses:

1. Objective sense

Murder is a grave sin.
Murder is a serious sin.
Murder is a mortal sin.

(all three mean the same)

this is one way the Church use the term. Talking about the ‘moral object’ of the act or the ‘objective kind of sin’. Referring to the object itself. Like if I said…do not commit murder for that is a mortal sin.

Then there is this way…
**
2. Subjective sense**

I committed the grave sin of Murder
I committed the serious sin of Murder
I committed the mortal sin of Murder

(all three mean the same)

This is speaking of when the thing I committed is grave matter …done with full knowledge and deliberate (complete) consent.

Both are true. Both are ways the terms get used in Church documents

---

When speaking with someone as to what a mortal (etc) sin is…that is when it is committed. I prefer to use the language of “grave matter”. But it is still true that the thing itself can be said to be “a mortal sin” in the sense that murder is a mortal sin in itself…objectively.

Ordinarily I tell people “such and such is a grave matter” for mortal sin and if one does it with full knowledge and complete consent…then one commits a mortal sin.

But sometimes is better to say “fornication is a mortal sin” etc for it brings the point home…and some will not know what “grave matter for mortal sin” means …

Or I use both terms and explain.

It all depends on who I may be talking with and how much time I have…

As to people being sinners…or committing mortal sin…one can mean in the objectively sinful sense. While we can not judge the interior state of a person for appearance can be disceptive…(and certainly not in the way Jesus tells us to “judge not”) …we *can *state that they are acting in a gravely sinful way …or what they are doing is mortally sinful…or that it is manifest grave sin etc…

 

[Bookcat]

**Mortal Sin = Grave sin= Serious sin **(both in terms of the “nature” of the action/omission in itself (murder is a mortal sin/grave sin/serious sin) and in terms of the “committing and thus requirement to confess” of the personal sin)

A Few Examples:

CCC1385: “Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.”

From: The Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI

"304. Which sins must be confessed?

1456

All **grave sins **not yet confessed, which a careful examination of conscience brings to mind, must be brought to the sacrament of Penance. The confession of serious sins is the only ordinary way to obtain forgiveness." (see also Canon Law …the term is used there too).

1. What is required to receive Holy Communion?

1385-1389
1415

To receive Holy Communion one must be fully incorporated into the Catholic Church and be in the state of grace, that is, not conscious of being in** mortal sin**. Anyone who is conscious of having committed a grave sin must first receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before going to Communion.

(note that one used BOTH to mean the same thing in the same paragraph…)

---

“However, it must be remembered that the church, guided by faith in this great sacrament, teaches that no Christian who is conscious of** grave sin** can receive the eucharist before having obtained God’s forgiveness.”

Pope John Paul II Reconciliatio et Paenitentia 17

---

In MISERICORDIA DEI he also noted:

“Individual and integral confession and absolution are the sole ordinary means by which the faithful, conscious of grave sin, are reconciled with God and the Church; only physical or moral impossibility excuses from such confession, in which case reconciliation can be obtained in other ways”

and

Since “the faithful are obliged to confess, according to kind and number, **all grave sins **committed after Baptism of which they are conscious after careful examination and which have not yet been directly remitted by the Church’s power of the keys

---

And in a speech from Pope John Paul II

“The sacrament of Penance is meant to take away personal sins committed after Baptism: first of all mortal sins, then venial. If the penitent has committed more than one mortal sin, they can only be remitted all at once. In fact, the remission of serious sin consists in the infusion of the sanctifying grace which has been lost, and grace is incompatible with any and every serious sin. Venial sins are to be regarded differently…”

and in ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA

“If a Christian’s conscience is burdened by serious sin, then the path of penance through the sacrament of Reconciliation becomes necessary for full participation in the Eucharistic Sacrifice.”

---

And Pope Benedict XVI in his Catecheses with Children said:

"Only in that case, when you are in a state of “mortal” sin, in other words, grave (sin), is it necessary to go to confession before Communion. This is my first point. " vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2005/october/documents/hf_ben_xvi_spe_20051015_meeting-children_en.html

In another place he said:

“The faithful, in their turn, must seek to receive and to venerate the Most Holy Sacrament with piety and devotion, eager to welcome the Lord Jesus with faith, and having recourse, whenever necessary, to the sacrament of reconciliation so as to purify the soul from every grave sin.” vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20070511_canonization-brazil_en.html

 

[nickybr38]

Bookcat:
Really wish my RCIA class would have explained these things but nooo… they were too busy telling us that no sin is ever really that bad.

Thanks for the little lesson.

 

[Bookcat]

Thanks for the little lesson.

(your mileage will vary in such depending on who is teaching at times…sometimes those who are doing it have received an incomplete ot mistaken understanding…)

Your welcome…see too the next post.