People who say Gay Marriage isn't against the Bible

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I agree with you, but that’s only because we have a belief in God, people who don’t believe in God don’t think morals come from Him…because to them He doesn’t exist.

Did you misunderstand me? I said Christians base their moralities on religion ie God…but you can’t possibly expect people that don’t believe He exists to do the same?
No, the concept of natural law can obviously be seen by the fact that human societies that have no deities or have many deities still have a moral compass. The exact degree to which a moral law written from a natural understanding will agree with the knowledge of the truth that comes from the knowledge of God may vary, but there is almost always a moral law that prohibits murder. A society that allows indiscriminate murder is one that other human societies would universally recognize as seriously disordered, whether the society is religious or not.

When someone of moral fiber refers to others as having “no” moral compass, they rarely mean that those others are sociopaths, that they have no conscience whatsoever or that they believe the whole concept of morality is artificial or absurd. They usually mean that the conscience of the barely moral resides solely or almost solely in the emotions or they mean the conscience lacks authority in the will. The guiding conscience has a weak role in the governance of the will, while the passions have the central role. If the passions and animal cunning alone guide the will, though, then that person is a sociopath or a psychopath. (Actually, using the term “animal” for these persons is unfair to a lot of animals. “Reptilian cunning” is more like it.)

Look at it this way: The Christian has both the hardware (the intellect and emotional conscience from which humans choose to make their social choices) and the software (moral law from God) by which to guide their actions. The natural person has only the hardware, but even the hardware we come loaded with will normally guide us to refrain from murder. The natural person lacks some sense of where the boundaries are between right and wrong, but they do naturally want to do right and avoid doing wrong. The sociopath or psychopath lack some or all of the emotional hardware in which the natural concept of right and wrong normally puts some brakes on the will. You are right: moral law is complete nonsense to such a person. Most people, however, are not sociopaths or psychopaths. Most people can understand moral law even from the limited viewpoint of their natural appreciation of right and wrong. With them, the main issue is convincing them when life does in fact begin and under what circumstances humans deserve to be allowed to live. Once those concepts are agreed upon, the natural person can of course agree that abortion is wrong and ought to be prevented at all costs. With many of the ancients, a widespread understanding was that children did not become persons until well after birth, which shows that the exact placement of the boundary between human and not human is a learned thing, even for the natural person.
 
No, the concept of natural law can obviously be seen by the fact that human societies that have no deities or have many deities still have a moral compass. The exact degree to which a moral law written from a natural understanding will agree with the knowledge of the truth that comes from the knowledge of God may vary, but there is almost always a moral law that prohibits murder. A society that allows indiscriminate murder is one that other human societies would universally recognize as seriously disordered, whether the society is religious or not.

When someone of moral fiber refers to others as having “no” moral compass, they rarely mean that those others are sociopaths, that they have no conscience whatsoever or that they believe the whole concept of morality is artificial or absurd. They usually mean that the conscience of the barely moral resides solely or almost solely in the emotions or they mean the conscience lacks authority in the will. The guiding conscience has a weak role in the governance of the will, while the passions have the central role. If the passions and animal cunning alone guide the will, though, then that person is a sociopath or a psychopath. (Actually, using the term “animal” for these persons is unfair to a lot of animals. “Reptilian cunning” is more like it.)

Look at it this way: The Christian has both the hardware (the intellect and emotional conscience from which humans choose to make their social choices) and the software (moral law from God) by which to guide their actions. The natural person has only the hardware, but even the hardware we come loaded with will normally guide us to refrain from murder. The natural person lacks some sense of where the boundaries are between right and wrong, but they do naturally want to do right and avoid doing wrong. The sociopath or psychopath lack some or all of the emotional hardware in which the natural concept of right and wrong normally puts some brakes on the will. You are right: moral law is complete nonsense to such a person. Most people, however, are not sociopaths or psychopaths. Most people can understand moral law even from the limited viewpoint of their natural appreciation of right and wrong. With them, the main issue is convincing them when life does in fact begin and under what circumstances humans deserve to be allowed to live. Once those concepts are agreed upon, the natural person can of course agree that abortion is wrong and ought to be prevented at all costs. With many of the ancients, a widespread understanding was that children did not become persons until well after birth, which shows that the exact placement of the boundary between human and not human is a learned thing, even for the natural person.
Isn’t that quote you used of mine from a different thread :confused:
 
I hope this makes sense, because it might be a little long and winding.

Anyway, I don’t like the phrase “against the Bible” because I think that it is vague, nondescript, and fairly meaningless.

Rather than focusing on what is “against” the Bible, you should consider what is against various religious traditions. The Protestant church that I grew up in actually performs gay marriages, however, most don’t. The church I grew up in allows the consumption of alcohol, but Baptists and Methodists do not believe in drinking. And of course, there’s the Catholic church, that bases many of their teachings and practices on Tradition, rather than just scripture. Some Protestant churches believe heavily on using historical context, others are pure literalists. And then of course, you have Bible translations. A few of my relatives attend a church that believes that ONLY the KJV of the Bible is to be used, whereas others don’t care, and once again, the Catholic Bible even more different from the versions that Protestants use.

When talking about theology, you have to consider the theological stance of the denomination or group you’re talking about, as it will seriously impact the message.
Yes, absolutely. The Bible was not written and was never intended to be a stand-alone manual for faith and morals. It has always required competent interpretation. Today, more than ever I believe, there are few positions that someone out there somewhere does not believe are mandated by the Bible. To argue about whether something is “in the Bible” or not is practically always impossible, excepting obvious errors. (By “obvious errors”, I mean incorrectly attributing quotes from popular wisdom, Shakespeare, or other authors to the Bible, such as “Cleanliness is next to godliness”, which appears nowhere in anybody’s translation.)
 
I hope this makes sense, because it might be a little long and winding.

Anyway, I don’t like the phrase “against the Bible” because I think that it is vague, nondescript, and fairly meaningless.

Rather than focusing on what is “against” the Bible, you should consider what is against various religious traditions. The Protestant church that I grew up in actually performs gay marriages, however, most don’t. The church I grew up in allows the consumption of alcohol, but Baptists and Methodists do not believe in drinking. And of course, there’s the Catholic church, that bases many of their teachings and practices on Tradition, rather than just scripture. Some Protestant churches believe heavily on using historical context, others are pure literalists. And then of course, you have Bible translations. A few of my relatives attend a church that believes that ONLY the KJV of the Bible is to be used, whereas others don’t care, and once again, the Catholic Bible even more different from the versions that Protestants use.

When talking about theology, you have to consider the theological stance of the denomination or group you’re talking about, as it will seriously impact the message.
Sorry if I have misunderstand you but I don’t understand how this is relevant? I’ve read a particular website which has given a particular stance as described in the post (and watched a documentary)…now I’m asking the catholics for the catholic stance on the perspective I saw/read about?
 
Isn’t that quote you used of mine from a different thread :confused:
Not that I am aware of, but great minds do think alike! 😉
(Seriously, though, I think it highly unlikely that either you or I were the first to use that analogy.)
 
Not that I am aware of, but great minds do think alike! 😉
(Seriously, though, I think it highly unlikely that either you or I were the first to use that analogy.)
Yeah the quote you have used is a post of mine from the thread about the abortion related story…I don’t know how you managed to get it into another thread…🙂
 
I’m posting this under catholic living as I would like the catholic response to these suggestions (in the knowledge that the Catholic Church opposes Gay marriage). It’s just me of the many things I am trying to get my head around…I for one have always been opposed to Gay marriage until reading/seeing the following put doubt into my mind…

The biblical passages used against gay marriage is Leviticus, Romans and Corinthians as well as genesis if you want to include Adam and Eve.

What I read/saw today said that the problem with the above is while Leviticus calls homosexuality an abomination it also includes dietary requirements and certain fibres etc…why then do we oppose homosexuality but not the other sins mentioned?

With genesis, the problem stated was that not all marriages in the bible are Adam and eve equivalent, you have polygamy for example. Others argue that the Adam and Eve story is a gender story not a marriage one as Adam and Eve didn’t get married.

I think it’s the story if lot in Romans where some say its about homosexuality others say it was about hospitality.

They also claim jesus never actual talked of homosexuality (its not mentioned in the gospels) and there isn’t actually a Hebrew word for gay attraction/marriage and the words abomination etc refer to it not being the cultural norm of the day…so a cultural problem as opposed to a biblical one?

Thoughts? (Sorry for the longish post)
ALL biblical references of homosexuality are negative. It repeats this message in the Old and New Testament.

Pornography also isn’t specifically listed in the Bible, I don’t think, but we know it doesn’t fit into Catholic living, either.

The Bible says homosexuals will not be received into the Kingdom of God as well as other things…that it’s unnatural. It didn’t need to go on to talk about gay marriage, because it condemned homosexuality.

We saw people back then like Nero who would have probably loved gay marriage, but what side of the issue was he? Weren’t Peter and Paul killed in one of Nero’s circuses?

Some people are really grasping at straws if they are trying to say the Bible condones homosexuality, or gay marriage, and using some major spin!
 
Yeah the quote you have used is a post of mine from the thread about the abortion related story…I don’t know how you managed to get it into another thread…🙂
I’m not quite sure what you are getting at…are you accusing me of plagiarism? It is an analogy I have used elsewhere in the past many times; I assure you I did not get it from you recently.
 
Sorry if I have misunderstand you but I don’t understand how this is relevant? I’ve read a particular website which has given a particular stance as described in the post (and watched a documentary)…now I’m asking the catholics for the catholic stance on the perspective I saw/read about?
She makes a good point. Whether or not something is “in the Bible” depends very much on (a) which translation you are reading and (b) who is interpreting and what rules of interpretation they are allowing themselves.

These are the “techniques” of interpretation allowed in your original post:
  1. If a book contains prohibitions against something later allowed, all other prohibitions in that book become open to question. (Oops, Christians, no Torah for you, because the Apostles removed the requirement to follow Mosaic law, as related in Acts 15. Never mind that the Apostles themselves did not use this “rule” for using Torah for instruction.)
  2. Likewise, if anything that was once allowed (e.g., polygamy) is no longer allowed, that implies that things that were previously not allowed might become allowed in the future. Suffice it to say that it would really open Pandora’s box if that “rule” were to be employed!
  3. The homosexuality/hospitality question is about the story of Lot protecting visitors sent from the Lord by male Sodomites who intended to rape the visitors. One has to ask why violations against hospitality and sexual morality are mutually exclusives charges against the residents of Sodom. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that the foulness of what they intended to do did not include both. There is no reason to believe that there were any acts of homosexuality that were ever considered “acceptable” for Jews or Christians.
  4. People sometimes say that Jesus and the early Church never talked about homosexuality and perhaps did not even understand the concept of same-sex attraction and same-sex unions. These same people fail to remember that they also teach us about the many ancient societies that did in fact allow same sex marriage, and that Rome and Greece were among them. What hole do they think the Jews were buried in, that in all their diaspora in the ancient world they knew nothing about the same sex marriages and permissive attitudes about homosexuality all around them? Is it not possible that the Jews did not mention this practice for the same reason that contemporary Christians sometimes refuse to use “homosexual” and “marriage” in the same noun phrase–that is, because the two concepts are mutually incompatible? After all, should we draw conclusions from the observation that the Jesus never issued any prohibitions against sex with animals? Sex with your wife in the middle of the market? Should we believe that he approved of public nudity because he did not issue prohibitions against that? How about driving over the posted speed limit or driving while drunk? Were there terms in ancient Hebrew for those things? Do you see how absurd this line of argument could get?
 
Yes it’s clear but as you say he doesn’t change why do we eat unclean meats and wear fibres etc which were also to be sinful and given orders if death? How do you discern between the laws that have changed and the laws that haven’t?
Not eating unclean meat and not wearing fibres were part of the old covenant between God and Israel. Jesus brought a new covenant, which we renew in the Eucharist.

Love has always been the law. Jesus came to show that. The Israelites didn’t eat meat, etc to show their love for God and commitment to the covenant. Now He asks at to eat His flesh and drink His blood instead.
 
Yes it’s clear but as you say he doesn’t change why do we eat unclean meats and wear fibres etc which were also to be sinful and given orders if death? How do you discern between the laws that have changed and the laws that haven’t?
I believe I answered this directly in my response.
 
Isn’t that quote you used of mine from a different thread :confused:
Yeah the quote you have used is a post of mine from the thread about the abortion related story…I don’t know how you managed to get it into another thread…🙂
I went back to the abortion thread I had been posted to, to see where the problem could have come from, and now I am really confused. Where is your post, the one from which you think I quoted? :confused:
 
I’m not quite sure what you are getting at…are you accusing me of plagiarism? It is an analogy I have used elsewhere in the past many times; I assure you I did not get it from you recently.
You are misunderstanding me, I’m not on about what you have written yourself, I’m on about my post which you have quoted and responded to…look at post 21…the bit which you have quoted (ie MY post) and replied to is from another thread…the one about abortion…it’s not something I have said in this thread…

I’m just intrigued how you have managed to respond to a post which is on a different thread and it end up here…🤷
 
I went back to the abortion thread I had been posted to, to see where the problem could have come from, and now I am really confused. Where is your post, the one from which you think I quoted? :confused:
The bit you quoted is from post 31 of the abortion thread…it really doesn’t matter, I just don’t know how you managed it! 😃
 
The bit you quoted is from post 31 of the abortion thread…it really doesn’t matter, I just don’t know how you managed it! 😃
I know it was long and somewhat convoluted, but did you even read my post? Not only did I not quote your other post–I don’t even agree with it! My post agrees with the guy you were replying to when you wrote it!

Those without religion absolutely do have access to moral law. Dude, you have to study up on the whole idea of Natural Law. The concept has been around since antiquity; it is in the Letter to the Romans.

(You do realize that I was not accusing atheists of being sociopaths or moral reptiles, right?)
 
I know it was long and somewhat convoluted, but did you even read my post? Not only did I not quote your other post–I don’t even agree with it! My post agrees with the guy you were replying to when you wrote it!

Those without religion absolutely do have access to moral law. Dude, you have to study up on the whole idea of Natural Law. The concept has been around since antiquity; it is in the Letter to the Romans.

(You do realize that I was not accusing atheists of being sociopaths or moral reptiles, right?)
Yes I did read it…how can you say you didn’t quote me, when its clear and plain as sight there in post 21 (of this thread)? I think you may be confusing yourself a little bit. We weren’t talking about moral law in this thread…I was talking about moral law/natural law in the abortion thread…with another poster I might add.

I do know about natural law…my point won’t be clear in this thread…because the conversation is in another one…

Oh and please don’t call me dude…I don’t like the phrase for men never mind when I’m a girl.

Also talking about moral law/natural law and atheist has nothing to do with gay marriage in the context of this thread…
 
Actually Easterjoy let’s do it this way…here is the bit you quoted of me
I agree with you, but that’s only because we have a belief in God, people who don’t believe in God don’t think morals come from Him…because to them He doesn’t exist.
Did you misunderstand me? I said Christians base their moralities on religion ie God…but you can’t possibly expect people that don’t believe He exists to do the same?]
Please show me where in this thread I posted this? (Because I didn’t…it’s from the abortion thread)
 
Actually Easterjoy let’s do it this way…here is the bit you quoted of me

Please show me where in this thread I posted this? (Because I didn’t…it’s from the abortion thread)
*Oh, I am sorry! *I only read your reply, which did not include your post…because when you reply, it doesn’t pick up things that I had in quotes!! I thought you meant I had re-used a thought of yours in my reply!!

I have no idea how that got crossed. My mistake, but I do not know how. I must need sleep or something. Sorry for the mix-up. :o
 
*Oh, I am sorry! *I only read your reply, which did not include your post…because when you reply, it doesn’t pick up things that I had in quotes!! I thought you meant I had re-used a thought of yours in my reply!!

I have no idea how that got crossed. My mistake, but I do not know how. I must need sleep or something. Sorry for the mix-up. :o
Honestly no worries…I was beginning to get confused there myself! 😃

Sorry my response probably should have been clearer in what exactly I was referring to! 🙂
 
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