People who sing in the choir: Why does the music change so frequently?

[Edmundus1581]

As the long-time chair of a youth music scholarship competition, I can testify that over the years, the number of entries has dropped by at least half.

I take singing lessons from someone who teaches both guitar and singing. He has informed me of the same - that student numbers have been in steady decline for at least ten years. He says that young people, where they are interested in music education at all, want to learn electronic music (and I admit I have no idea what that even means).

I’ve heard that conservatories of music are also experiencing critical decline in student numbers.

So in conclusion, I believe that church music in general, not just Catholic church music, has suffered because of changes in our society. I don’t think we should simplify our church music for the sake of those who can’t learn fast enough, but instead, we should change our society by influencing families to commit to rearing their children well and educating them more fully not only in job-producing STEM subjects, but the arts as well.

A good suggestion, but I can’t fully agree. The premise (that music education and performance are in decline across society) I agree with, but the conclusion I dispute. The job of the music directors in any parish is to make the best music for congregational abilities as they are. I agree with the OP of this thread that, in many cases, they are actually imposing additional difficulties on the congregation’s already limited skills, and doing so unneccessarily.

As for those who can’t learn new music, I think that the music/liturgy directors should do a better job of teaching their congregations.

Perhaps you are referring to “new music” of high quality which is still being composed for the church, by professional composers?

It would be great if such music could be heard regularly in church, along with the best of the old, and the congregations participate, but I think this is so far removed from the typical parish experience as to be a separate topic.

I’m in agreement with you though that, ideally, the Church would, at the most senior levels of the heirarchy, make it a priority to foster both music education in the young, and promote better music, including new music, in our parishes.

They could start by encouraging more organ players, and more organs in church.

 

[Jen95]

Gyro, does your parish actually sing the credo?

 

[Jen95]

As I like to say:
"If only we had a nationwide network of schools, where we could teach strong Catholic values, curriculum, Gregorian chant…
Oh wait – "

 

[Edmundus1581]

I suspect there’s a hidden reference there, to… SSPX?..FSSP?..?

Well, if whoever it is, then I’m all for it

 

[Jen95]

I just don’t understand why Catholics don’t teach the students proper church music. Why they seem to mainly teach slop.

 

[Edmundus1581]

100%

Indeed, the underlying issues to this thread are complex and intractible.

Still, returning to the OP’s recent experience as a convert and my similar experience forty years ago, we both found on conversion that Catholic parish music and congregational singing were inferior to what we were used to. I’ve seen this referred to in other sources long before the internet and modern education.

 

[Gyro]

I wish! I was simply using the words of the Credo (from the pre-2010 days to now) as an example of how our liturgical language in English has changed. The big changes post 2010, as far as the Ordinary of the Mass is concerned for the congregation, were (and are) to be found in singing of the Gloria and the Sanctus. Using the Latin titles for the songs that are part of the Ordinary, the Kyrie remains unchanged as does the Agnus Dei. Periodically, our congregation also sings the Pater Noster, but the words in English, post-2010, still remain the same as always.

My parish is a singing parish and is also quite formal in its approach to worship. It is not uncommon at all to hear the Mass sung by the celebrant, and most of our deacons also sing their parts. Our SATB choir, although basically volunteer, is actually quite good. It is not uncommon to hear Bach or Mozart (or even Brahms!) at a Mass. Our choir director is simply one of the best I’ve ever had the honor of knowing, and our organist is superb - it is common to hear a postlude at Mass. I wouldn’t put a sung Credo out of reach for this choir (or the congregation) if the setting is accessible, but I’m certain that they would only do so on special occasions - and only with the permission of the pastor.

 

[Peeps]

They could start by encouraging more organ players, and more organs in church.

I certainly agree with this, but this is easier said than done. My experiences with the young people in our local scholarship competition indicate that those students who are willing to put in several hours a day of practice are home schooled and have exceptional parents who work together and put their heart and soul into rearing their children.

Also, most of these parents have at least one breadwinner (usually dad, but not always) who is a highly-paid professional (doctor, lawyer, company owner, etc.) so there is money enough in the family to pay for musical instruments, lessons, and practice sessions, along with entry fees for music competitions like ours! (Ours is cheap–$35!)

Just as a guide–my organ lessons cost $60/hour. Most piano teachers that I know charge $50/hour for advanced students, although younger students might get away with half of that. Still, that’s a hundred dollars a month, plus the cost of the music. There are ways to buy music online for much cheaper than the local music store (if your town has a local music store–we only have two in our city). I think that strings lessons (violin, viola, cello, bass viol) cost about the same.

There are also academies that do Suzuki music lessons in group settings, which is cheaper and a good way for little ones to begin learning music.

 

[Peeps]

Perhaps you are referring to “new music” of high quality which is still being composed for the church, by professional composers?

It would be great if such music could be heard regularly in church, along with the best of the old, and the congregations participate, but I think this is so far removed from the typical parish experience as to be a separate topic.

No, I’m just referring to any hymn in the church hymnal (in the pew) that is unfamiliar to most people in the congregation.

I don’t think that any music director who is competent expects a congregation to sing a choir anthem along with the choir.

But I do think that it’s very very sad when congregations of people who have media galore, computers in their phones, and free public schools that they can get to easily (no walking through a blizzard), plus the likelihood that they will survive early childhood (no dying of pertussis or TB at a young age), and that they and their parents don’t have to do physical labor from sun-up to sundown just to survive CAN’T read a single line of music to be able to learn a new hymn from a hymnal.

In the past, a century ago, many families lived the hard life that I described above, and yet they owned “Songbooks” that they used to sing together as a family, and they knew how to read the music and the lyrics. Why have we lost that simple skill?

BOTH of my children learned to read music in their school from a competent music teacher who used the solfege method to teach music reading. There are other methods, but this one seems to work well with even very young children. It certainly worked with my children. My older daughter actually got her first post-college job (stage manager at a ballet company) because she knew how to read a music score.

Of course, it would might help if Catholics would actually open their hymnals and take a look at the hymns instead of just trying to pick the words and melody out of the air. But if they they’ve never learned to read music, I guess it doesn’t do much good–but at least they could meditate on the words of the hymn even if they can’t sing along. Better than standing there fuming.

 

[Katie777]

My youngest is in both school and church choir and sings both traditional and more modern songs. She does bells and tonal chimes too.

I bring her to practice at church weekly for songs that reflect liturgical calendar.

 

[Edmundus1581]

In the past, a century ago, many families lived the hard life that I described above, and yet they owned “Songbooks” that they used to sing together as a family, and they knew how to read the music and the lyrics. Why have we lost that simple skill?

I suspect, but don’t know for sure, that these people were more likely to be those stalwart American Protestants than Catholics.

AFAIK the Catholic church has never had a good tradition of congregational singing, and musical excellence from the choir, while certainly present in places, has been patchy.

(I’m speaking of the Irish descended Catholics, of places like the US, UK and Australia. I don’t know about other cultures).

As I said above, that’s been my impression from forty years in the Catholic church, even before the onslaught of modern technology.

As I’ve also mentioned, I think the adoption of recorded music in Mass has been the coup-de-grace for whatever congregational singing there was previously, except in the most musical of parishes. Even until a few years ago you’d find “enough” (20%, 40%, 50%), of the congregation willing to sing a-cappella, but now they won’t even do that or join in with the (usually ghastly) recorded music.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

In the Byzantine Tradition, we sing a capella. As St. Augustine said: “He who sings, prays twice.”

I’ve been taking voice lessons for a few years and the $$$ add up. When I was at SingCon 2019, I sat in the alto section because I wasn’t sure of my voice section. I was moved to the soprano section. The lady who taught the Vespers classes said I was a mezzo soprano.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I’ll share an anecdote which speaks volumes.

About ten years ago our parish was still doing a-cappella hymns, selected by the commentator.

The convention was to chose “modern” hymns (as they were ten years ago), such as “Come as You Are”, “Shine Jesus Shine”. Anything post 1970 would do.

I was commentator once and chose a completely traditional set of hymns. Soul of My Saviour, Praise My Soul the King of Heaven, Immaculate Mary, etc. The congregation sang along joyfully and well, and after Mass one little old lady came up to me and hugged me, saying “Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou…”.

Meanwhile, a few senior liturgy people there were looking at me with daggers.

I wasn’t selected as commentator for that Mass again for several years, and by which time CD’s, selected by a parish administrator (not musician), had taken over.

The antipathy to traditional music, even when it’s preferred by the congregation, is real.

The fate of the hymn Soul of My Savior sums it up to me. It is a beautiful hymn, well known and loved by most congregations, and easily sung. The words are strongly Catholic and descended from the 16th century. In my life time I have seen it banished from almost every parish in Australia, to be replaced by vapid “communion songs” which have barely any meaning other than “We are the people of God”. The congregation only participates half-heartedly, if at all, still the liturgists won’t give them Soul of My Savior.

ps. and, yes, I have suggested it in the choir in which I sing, and it was dismissed.

 

[Jen95]

For sure, the Irish issue is fundamental in discussing Catholic church music.
I know there were singing parishes of German / Austrian flavor that lost their choral tradition “somehow”.
There’s something very wrong in Catholic Mass music.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Thanks for the info from Germany and Austria!

It does seem there’s a modern disease in Catholic music.

It’s likely to be a much deeper issue even than music education - but perhaps music education and liturgical music direction is part of the solution. Perhaps…

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Our sister parish has a choir from Sept. - June. My parish has always had congregational singing. Since I’m the lay cantor at my parish, I lead the singing. If I’m not there, then everyone recites (shudder!) the Divine Liturgy.

True story: A few years ago, I was stuck in traffic one Saturday going to Liturgy. I got there late and everyone was reciting the Liturgy. When I started singing, then everyone else did too.

 

[Edmundus1581]

That’s great! Don’t let them ever introduce recorded music, or inferior music, for when you’re not there. It’ll be the death of singing in the parish.

In this thread we’ve discussed the impact of culture on church music, with mention of the Irish (which applies to most of us) and German/Austrian cultures.

I am guessing the Byzantines have a different culture for singing, and also a different background in the schools and families?

If so, how is it holding out against modern influences with the young?

I can picture an older generation holding on to the tradition of singing, while the young are losing it, but I’m hoping I’m wrong.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Our Liturgy is ALWAYS sung. No instrumentation is allowed. The only exceptions I’ve seen are clappers used for the procession on Good Friday and ringing the “Sanctus” bells after each verse of the Gospel on Pascha (Easter). However, they’re considered Latinizations and are generally discouraged. We plainchant the Psalms and stichera for Presanctified Liturgy during the Great Fast even though the latter are to be sung according to the prescribed tones.

Professor Joseph Roll, a noted authority on music in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, came to our parish years ago to conduct the first two Liturgical Music Workshops. We had people come from all over (one couple came from Maine!) to our parish. The first one was on the Divine Liturgy and the next one was on the funeral services.

Professor Roll also helped put together the Anthology (which is what I use for Divine Liturgy):

The Divine Liturgy and Anthology for Worship – Byzantine Church Supplies

Last year he was at SingCon 2019 in Stamford CT and gave a lecture as well as teaching one of the series of courses:

UGCC MUSIC

He received a well-deserved standing ovation for his contributions to Ukrainian Greek Catholic music.

You can also watch the Vespers thread. Women singing on one side of the church and the men singing on the other. It was magnificent.

Signing off now. Good night!

 

[Peeps]

That’s great! Don’t let them ever introduce recorded music, or inferior music, for when you’re not there. It’ll be the death of singing in the parish.

I’m still kind of flummoxed that parishes in the U.S. are using recorded music.

In our diocese, it’s not allowed.

It’s OK for parishes to play recordings of chant BEFORE the Mass, and I think that’s very conducive to worship and preparation of our hearts towards Mass (although I personally dislike chant, but I know that others love it).

But once the Mass starts, all the music has to be live, both the instrumentals and vocals.

And I’m glad of this! If we can’t even play and sing to the Lord, how on EARTH will we feed the hungry, house the homeless, visit the sick and the prisoner, etc.–all the truly hard stuff. Singing and playing music should be a picnic, a pleasure compared to these sacrificial acts of love (which we should also do with joy for the sake of Our Lord Jesus, Who gave Himself for us!).

Also, our diocese makes it clear when preludes, postludes, and communion meditations are allowed. During Lent, all of these are supposed to be gone as we pare down the Mass to a minimum.

I attended a Mass on Saturday evening this past week (had to attend a funeral right before, so I just stuck around), and I thought it was lovely that instead of a Communion hymn (congregational), the organist played softly (on the piano) during Holy Communion.

Now I love Communion hymns and think that of all the hymns in Mass, these are the most Biblical (Jesus and His disciples sang a hymn following the Last Supper). But I did like the instrumental hymn during Holy Communion. Many in the congregation were elderly, and the instrumental music was much easier for them than trying to get back to their seats, kneel those who could, which means I wasn’t kneeling), open the hymnal, hold it open while kneeling, and sing–that’s a lot!

Anyway, I could become a proponent of an instrumental or even a vocal solo during the Holy Communion time.

 

[Peeps]

It does seem there’s a modern disease in Catholic music.

It’s likely to be a much deeper issue even than music education - but perhaps music education and liturgical music direction is part of the solution. Perhaps…

Yes, I agree that music education and liturgical music direction are part of the solution.

And I agree that there are deeper issues. We have become a nation (in the U.S.–I can’t speak for other countries) of SPECTATORS.

We watch TV and movies–for many people, including me, this is our main relaxation (it doesn’t hurt my knee to sit down and watch TV!).

We attend concerts, mainly rock, country, soul, R and B, and all the latest “alternative” music (which I don’t know the names of anymore, there are so many new styles). But we usually don’t sing along, although in some country concerts, audiences will join in on familiar songs like “God Bless the U.S.A.”

If we are classical music or opera fans, we attend concerts–we rarely practice and perform our own classical and opera pieces anymore. (Hey, I’m an exception to this–I and a friend formed a duo and we perform classical pieces and opera favorites! Book us now for your parish social event!)

We listen to music on various devices–some people in my hospital listen to music all day on their headsets! My husband has music on all day long (usually pop music from the 1980s and earlier).

But…we don’t sing. We don’t play instruments. We don’t dance (we watch others dance). We don’t chant. We don’t join choirs. We don’t do self-studies on music theory. We don’t sign up for lessons in reading music. We don’t even fill out church surveys about music.

We just listen. We’re spectators.

So that’s one issue, and the only way, IMO, to correct this, is for parents to raise their children up to be participants, not spectators. That’s what we did, and our children SING OUT whenever they have the opportunity, whether it be in church or at a ball game during the Star Spangled Banner.

Funny–when my daughter’s skating team won Gold in France years ago (she’s grown up now), when they played the anthem, the team SANG OUT with all their hearts! But that was 20 years ago. I don’t see the teams do this now–of course, I don’t see American teams winning Gold overseas lately. It seems that many of our American skills have gone downhill in the last decades.