People with gender identity issues and sex change surgeries!

[irishpatrick]

This thread was sparked by some questions I asked on a different thread and since there seems to be no real interest there, I thought I would give them their own thread (I rarely get headaches regardng moral and faith issues, but these issues are not easy to answer). Here goes:

Say a physical man chooses–after decades of torment–to get surgery to become a physical female. That person would still have the DNA of a man, so I assume the new “female” would still be a male in the eyes of the Church/faith. Is that right? Is it therefore a sin for that man to get the surgery?

Let us say that newly formed “female” marries a biological male. Are they in fact engaging in homosexual activity when they have sex (they both have male DNA)?

Now, let us flip this situation. Say the man who wants the surgey and has faced personal torment his entire life cannot stop thinking of himself as a woman, he cannot escape it no matter what he does. Say he decides (rather then opting for a sex change surgery) to make a complete commitment to his physical gender and chooses to get married to a biological woman. Since that man always mentally feels like a woman, does that make their marriage a quasi lesbian relationship?

[btw, this obviously can be reversed and go from the female to male pov, I had to pick one to discuss because the morality would be the same either way]

Further, what happens to the souls of people who do get the sugery, and then marry their new “opposite” sex? Are they then fornicating because two people with the same gender DNA cannot be sacramentally married?

The gender indentity issues are for more difficult to discern morally imo.

 

[mgreen77]

The Church can’t afford to recognize the idea that someone can “change sexes” (the semantics get too messy theologically), so it just says such people can’t marry or be intimate with anyone… ever.

 

[paulinx]

Setting aside DNA, the sex of embryos is not fully formed at conception but later in pregnancy. That’s the normal course of events. I suppose that in principle it is possible that some people don’t have their sex fully formed at birth and are thus as an objective matter of fact, indeterminate in sex. There are “intersex” individuals where gender is not clear, even when taking DNA account. But it’s not clear to me which if any of these cases are actually indeterminate in sex or are just hard to discern. But assuming there are such genuine cases, I suppose in those exceptional cases God would form the sex of the individual later as they come to choose it and be formed into it.

 

[irishpatrick]

The Church can’t afford to recognize the idea that someone can “change sexes” (the semantics get too messy theologically), so it just says such people can’t marry or be intimate with anyone… ever.

Does the Church say anything about these questions? I know there is plenty said about marriage and about homosexuality…but I have never read anything about these issues…

 

[irishpatrick]

Setting aside DNA, the sex of embryos is not fully formed at conception but later in pregnancy. That’s the normal course of events. I suppose that in principle it is possible that some people don’t have their sex fully formed at birth and are thus as an objective matter of fact, indeterminate in sex. There are “intersex” individuals where gender is not clear, even when taking DNA account. But it’s not clear to me which if any of these cases are actually indeterminate in sex or are just hard to discern. But assuming there are such genuine cases, I suppose in those exceptional cases God would form the sex of the individual later as they come to choose it and be formed into it.

I’m not Catholic though I respect and listen to the teaching of your church. My understanding is that the Catholic church has commented on precisely the kind of case you bring up but I don’t have it handy. Maybe someone else does.

I think DNA is important. Does the DNA define the gender? Does the physical attributes define the gender? Does the brain define the gender? How do we reconcile all this with the faith?

I would seem to me that DNA is the common denominator here. If a person has male DNA, they are male no matter what they do with their bodies…?

 

[Rence]

Since the Church forbids someone who cannot complete the marital embrace (for any reason whatsoever) from getting married, I would think (correct me if I’m wrong) that the Church is not concerned at all for genetics or cellular makeup of a person.

I honestly don’t know what their rules are regarding sex changes. Going by the logic that the Church forbids sterilizations, I would think that the Church would also forbid sex change operations. People still do both, and the Church doesn’t require reversals of sterilizations, so they wouldn’t require a “reversal” of a sex change operation, which is probably not possible. But I do know that they are expected to be celibate for the rest of their lives, and have chaste relationships. I don’t believe the Church regards a man who has had a sex change operation to be anything else than a man, despite having artificial woman-parts.

 

[irishpatrick]

Since the Church forbids someone who cannot complete the marital embrace (for any reason whatsoever) from getting married, I would think (correct me if I’m wrong) that the Church is not concerned at all for genetics or cellular makeup of a person.

I honestly don’t know what their rules are regarding sex changes. Going by the logic that the Church forbids sterilizations, I would think that the Church would also forbid sex change operations. People still do both, and the Church doesn’t require reversals of sterilizations, so they wouldn’t require a “reversal” of a sex change operation, which is probably not possible. But I do know that they are expected to be celibate for the rest of their lives, and have chaste relationships. I don’t believe the Church regards a man who has had a sex change operation to be anything else than a man, despite having artificial woman-parts.

Yes, I would think that if a DNA male gets a sex change operation, they would still be a DNA male and the Church would likely still consider them male. Yet, the question again comes down to what defines gender in the eye of the Church? Is it DNA, the brain, the body, all three?

This is a real brain twister for me and I have no clue how to answer it all.

On the other hand, say a DNA male gets the operation to become a physical female, and then marries a DNA male and they adopt kids and raise them in the faith and in all matters they live a chaste life as a so-called husband and wife. One has to wonder how the Church and God would view that situation (this stuff happens all the time, not huge numbers, but it does happen).
Further, can their marriage be sacramental?

 

[Rence]

I think DNA is important. Does the DNA define the gender? Does the physical attributes define the gender? Does the brain define the gender? How do we reconcile all this with the faith?

I would seem to me that DNA is the common denominator here. If a person has male DNA, they are male no matter what they do with their bodies…?

If a person has male DNA, they are male. If a person has female DNA, they are female. The problem with hermaphrodites is that they have DNA of both. XX is normal female. XY is normal male. Some people have XXY or XXXY, or XXYY, etc. and have the organs of both male and female. Some have the outward appearance of one sex, but incomplete parts of the other sex internally.

Look at freemartin cows. They are female in outward appearance, but inside their sex organs are not functioning or not complete. They may lack a uterus, or their cervix may not be complete, or they may even have a uterus that does not function so they can’t be bred.

 

[irishpatrick]

If a person has male DNA, they are male. If a person has female DNA, they are female. The problem with hermaphrodites is that they have DNA of both. XX is normal female. XY is normal male. Some people have XXY or XXXY, or XXYY, etc. and have the organs of both male and female. Some have the outward appearance of one sex, but incomplete parts of the other sex internally.

Look at freemartin cows. They are female in outward appearance, but inside their sex organs are not functioning or not complete. They may lack a uterus, or their cervix may not be complete, or they may even have a uterus that does not function so they can’t be bred.

Yes, I agree…but that does not really address my questions.

There are people who are utterly convinced they are really the opposite gender and that something happened to them *in utero * to cause their brains to go one way, while their bodies went the other. I have no idea if that is bilogically possible, or not. However, there is little doubt that people in those situations live a tormented life and as Christians we cannot just ignore their plight.

I think the Church has not really said much about this because it really is a true moral grey area. I agree with you that DNA should be a defining foundation, but is that true and is it how the Church views these issues? I would think that if a DNA male gets a sex change operation, they would still be a DNA male and the Church would likely still consider them male. Yet, the question again comes down to** what defines gender in the eye of the Church? Is it DNA, the brain, the body, all three? **

On the other hand, say a DNA male gets the operation to become a physical female, and then marries a DNA male and they adopt kids and raise them in the faith and in all matters they live a chaste life as a so-called husband and wife. One has to wonder how the Church and God would view that situation (this stuff happens all the time, not huge numbers, but it does happen).
Further, can their marriage be sacramental?

 

[paulinx]

I think DNA is important. Does the DNA define the gender? Does the physical attributes define the gender? Does the brain define the gender? How do we reconcile all this with the faith?

I would seem to me that DNA is the common denominator here. If a person has male DNA, they are male no matter what they do with their bodies…?

If I’m not mistaken, some “intersex” individuals don’t have a clear sex in their DNA. They lack a chromosome or some such and so are neither XY nor XX. I was only setting aside DNA for that first sentence or two. Sorry for the confusion. Even in cases where the DNA would be clear, my understanding is that in some cases for some odd reason the hormones or the genital organs don’t match up with it -at birth I mean.

 

[irishpatrick]

If I’m not mistaken, some “intersex” individuals don’t have a clear sex in their DNA. They lack a chromosome or some such and so are neither XY nor XX. I was only setting aside DNA for that first sentence or two. Sorry for the confusion. Even in cases where the DNA would be clear, my understanding is that in some cases for some odd reason the hormones or the genital organs don’t match up with it -at birth I mean.

I think those situations are even more rare than the true gender dysphoric person. However, from some documents I am reading, it seems the Church defines genders gentically…which would mean DNA is the final word if those documents are correct. In that case, what a person feels or thinks has no impact on reality if the only common denominator is DNA/Genetics.

 

[davidv]

Yes, I agree…but that does not really address my questions.

There are people who are utterly convinced they are really the opposite gender and that something happened to them *in utero *to cause their brains to go one way, while their bodies went the other. I have no idea if that is bilogically possible, or not. However, there is little doubt that people in those situations live a tormented life and as Christians we cannot just ignore their plight.

How does their personal conviction define the truth.

God created us male and female and called this “good”. Sin brought disorder to the word. This disorder is evident in the physical as wells spriitual.

Each of us suffer some manner of disorder. This is our cross. Christ commands that we pick up our cross and follow Him.

I think the Church has not really said much about this because it really is a true moral grey area. I agree with you that DNA should be a defining foundation, but is that true and is it how the Church views these issues? I would think that if a DNA male gets a sex change operation, they would still be a DNA male and the Church would likely still consider them male. Yet, the question again comes down to** what defines gender in the eye of the Church? Is it DNA, the brain, the body, all three? **

On the other hand, say a DNA male gets the operation to become a physical female, and then marries a DNA male and they adopt kids and raise them in the faith and in all matters they live a chaste life as a so-called husband and wife. One has to wonder how the Church and God would view that situation (this stuff happens all the time, not huge numbers, but it does happen).
Further, can their marriage be sacramental?

It seems to me that the transgender who modifies there physical appearance goes against God in doing so. Any attempt at marriage after this fact would rightly called invalid, and therefore not sacrametal as is would be a same sex arrangement.

 

[irishpatrick]

How does their personal conviction define the truth.

God created us male and female and called this “good”. Sin brought disorder to the word. This disorder is evident in the physical as wells spriitual.

Each of us suffer some manner of disorder. This is our cross. Christ commands that we pick up our cross and follow Him.

It seems to me that the transgender who modifies there physical appearance goes against God in doing so. Any attempt at marriage after this fact would rightly called invalid, and therefore not sacrametal as is would be a same sex arrangement.

The Church appears to define gender through genetics.

Case closed.

Thank you to all.

 

[Rence]

Yes, I agree…but that does not really address my questions.

There are people who are utterly convinced they are really the opposite gender and that something happened to them *in utero * to cause their brains to go one way, while their bodies went the other. I have no idea if that is bilogically possible, or not. However, there is little doubt that people in those situations live a tormented life and as Christians we cannot just ignore their plight.

Yes, their bodies went one way and their mind another. We see that with adults who go in for MRI’s and find incomplete or complete sex organs of the opposite sex in their MRIs and CTscans. So we know it happens that people can be one sex on the outside, but different in their mind or even on the inside of their body. And we can further conclude that some may never find out what’s going on inside them. For example, I was in an A&P class, and we were working on a fresh cadaver. The instructor couldn’t find the stomach and assumed that it was removed. After a while of working on this cadaver, the stomach was found above the diaphragm. We also know that some anomalies aren’t discovered at all, if not later in life. And we know they’re tormented and I think the Church is trying to do the best it can in light of the lack of information available. I really think that they have to look at these cases individually…there can’t be a blanket statement from the Vatican with so many variables.

I think the Church has not really said much about this because it really is a true moral grey area.

I don’t think it’s a true moral grey area. I think it’s a medical area that we don’t know much about yet. We really have to stand back and acknowledge that though we have made great strides in medicine in science, there’s still so much we don’t understand and can’t work though. I mean, we have some pretty good knee replacements, but spinal cord and brain injuries haven’t really been tackled yet, though there have been some impressive strides. People are starting to come forward about being hermaphrodites, and we know about them more. But there was a time when a baby was born with both organs and the parents would have to make the decision to choose which sex the child was going to be…without even knowing the child yet…and without the kid knowing what happened to him/her when reaching adulthood because it was such taboo.

I agree with you that DNA should be a defining foundation, but is that true and is it how the Church views these issues? I would think that if a DNA male gets a sex change operation, they would still be a DNA male and the Church would likely still consider them male. Yet, the question again comes down to** what defines gender in the eye of the Church? Is it DNA, the brain, the body, all three? **

I don’t know that DNA should be a defining foundation. I only know that XX is female and XY is male, and that these are the last of the chromosome sets on someone’s DNA. It obviously can’t be a defining foundation for everyone otherwise we wouldn’t be asking these questions There is more to a person than their DNA, or the color of their skin or hair, or their outward appearance. And it’s not just with humans, but with other mammals and other animals. And the less people are hung up on taboos, the more “anomalies” are discovered. And considering how much is going on, I wonder what exactly is normal? Perfection just doesn’t seem normal to me.

On the other hand, say a DNA male gets the operation to become a physical female, and then marries a DNA male and they adopt kids and raise them in the faith and in all matters they live a chaste life as a so-called husband and wife. One has to wonder how the Church and God would view that situation (this stuff happens all the time, not huge numbers, but it does happen).
Further, can their marriage be sacramental?

Well, first of all, do we even know the DNA sequence of all those people who have had sex operations? And would it make a difference if it was different from the standard XX or XY?

I don’t know how the Church views the situation but I can bet that God has an answer to everything and we as mere humans just don’t have all those answers, at least not yet. I really think these are situations that are between those people and the Church at the highest level. These situations are far too complicated for lay people, for parish priests and maybe even the bishop, to figure out. I think we’ll just make a mess of things.

But there has be something good about that couple, who follow the rules of the Church on the level you’re describing, and raising children to be practicing Catholics. As to whether or not those Sacraments are valid, that would have to be up to the Pope or a council assembled by him. And I’m sure they would look at all the information, including the medical information…

Ok, so to answer your question, I don’t know how the Church views these arrangments. And I don’t know if they have addressed them. How can we when not all the information is available? My answer is that each case would have to be examinined individually…

 

[Rence]

The Church appears to define gender through genetics.

Case closed.

Thank you to all.

Ok, well I’m glad you found the answers

 

[irishpatrick]

Ok, well I’m glad you found the answers

I was trying to find out how the Church defines gender because that is the critical element. Everything I have read says the Church uses genetics to define gender.

I suspect it is not the end of this in any way though.

 

[irishpatrick]

Yes, their bodies went one way and their mind another. We see that with adults who go in for MRI’s and find incomplete or complete sex organs of the opposite sex in their MRIs and CTscans. So we know it happens that people can be one sex on the outside, but different in their mind or even on the inside of their body. And we can further conclude that some may never find out what’s going on inside them. For example, I was in an A&P class, and we were working on a fresh cadaver. The instructor couldn’t find the stomach and assumed that it was removed. After a while of working on this cadaver, the stomach was found above the diaphragm. We also know that some anomalies aren’t discovered at all, if not later in life. And we know they’re tormented and I think the Church is trying to do the best it can in light of the lack of information available. I really think that they have to look at these cases individually…there can’t be a blanket statement from the Vatican with so many variables.

I don’t think it’s a true moral grey area. I think it’s a medical area that we don’t know much about yet. We really have to stand back and acknowledge that though we have made great strides in medicine in science, there’s still so much we don’t understand and can’t work though. I mean, we have some pretty good knee replacements, but spinal cord and brain injuries haven’t really been tackled yet, though there have been some impressive strides. People are starting to come forward about being hermaphrodites, and we know about them more. But there was a time when a baby was born with both organs and the parents would have to make the decision to choose which sex the child was going to be…without even knowing the child yet…and without the kid knowing what happened to him/her when reaching adulthood because it was such taboo.

I don’t know that DNA should be a defining foundation. I only know that XX is female and XY is male, and that these are the last of the chromosome sets on someone’s DNA. It obviously can’t be a defining foundation for everyone otherwise we wouldn’t be asking these questions There is more to a person than their DNA, or the color of their skin or hair, or their outward appearance. And it’s not just with humans, but with other mammals and other animals. And the less people are hung up on taboos, the more “anomalies” are discovered. And considering how much is going on, I wonder what exactly is normal? Perfection just doesn’t seem normal to me.

Well, first of all, do we even know the DNA sequence of all those people who have had sex operations? And would it make a difference if it was different from the standard XX or XY?

I don’t know how the Church views the situation but I can bet that God has an answer to everything and we as mere humans just don’t have all those answers, at least not yet. I really think these are situations that are between those people and the Church at the highest level. These situations are far too complicated for lay people, for parish priests and maybe even the bishop, to figure out. I think we’ll just make a mess of things.

But there has be something good about that couple, who follow the rules of the Church on the level you’re describing, and raising children to be practicing Catholics. As to whether or not those Sacraments are valid, that would have to be up to the Pope or a council assembled by him. And I’m sure they would look at all the information, including the medical information…

Ok, so to answer your question, I don’t know how the Church views these arrangments. And I don’t know if they have addressed them. How can we when not all the information is available? My answer is that each case would have to be examinined individually…

Very well reasoned post. Thank you. I have not much to add. I have heard that people with this “condition” might also have had a different brain development process while in utero. I think that too is far from proved or disproved. However, if science can one day prove that a genetic male has a similar brain as that of a healthy genetic female, then boy that will become theologically difficult…talk about a headache.

After all, in that case, which direction do you take? Do you lean towards the female brain or the male body?

Life ain’t easy…

 

[mgreen77]

Life ain’t easy…

And would you have it any other way?

All these contradictions and paradoxes and conundrums… it’s all so… delicious, isn’t it?

 

[irishpatrick]

And would you have it any other way?

All these contradictions and paradoxes and conundrums… it’s all so… delicious, isn’t it?

Yes, and frustrating at the same time.

I do wonder though if God will close the door on these issues sometime soon. Science continues to advance in both moral and immoral activities. They are now trying to find ways to make sex change surgies even more complete by giving a donot uteros, etc., to the gender dysphoric patient and by manipulating DNA to change the physical male to a more complete physical female…brave new world indeed.

 

[mgreen77]

Yes, and frustrating at the same time.

I do wonder though if God will close the door on these issues sometime soon.

Personally, aside from the pain it causes some people, I hope that door stays open and questionable. I think some of these moral conundrums are put there by God to teach us; paradoxes to keep us involved and talking to Him, and exercising our conscious