People with gender identity issues and sex change surgeries!

[MariaTSAngel]

As a transgender woman, I must declare that I am not insane in any way. An insane person is someone who is unable to function in society. I am perfectly capable of functioning in a society of intelligent and open-minded individuals. Many ignorant and narrow-minded individuals attempt to assert that transgender people are insane and that is simply a fallacy. Also what do Bishops and Historians know about Science or Medicine? Absolutely nothing, so no one should base their scientific or medical knowledge off of inaccurate opinions stated by biased individuals. I have an IQ of 145, scored a 29 on my ACT, and had a 3.3 GPA in high school, I highly doubt that this denotes a person who is unable to function in society.

 

[RichP]

And Isaiah 56:3-5 dictates how they should behave yes I know but “Gender Identity Disorder” involves intersexed anatomy and appears to be caused by it in every case that we’ve ever examined.

How can this be? Intersex conditions are diagnosed by physical examination and chromosomes. Some of these conditions are found at birth because they are life threatening. GID is diagnosed by psychologists, not by physical examination. People with GID have a problem with their natal sex. People that are intersex are “in-between” sexes physically to various degrees.

All of the various brain studies of transsexuals:

• should be easily repeatable. There have been problems with this.
• do not show cause and effect. What caused these brains to form the way they did? Are the people transsexual because of their brains or are their brains the way they are because they are transsexual? In other words, does our identity determine our brain characteristics or do our brain characteristics determine our identity?
• ignore the plasticity of the human brain. Our brains grow from birth until our early twenties. Our brains change during our lives and are proven to be flexible and adaptable.
• do not prove that GID is present at birth or pre-natal.

The effect of pre-natal hormones on the brain is inconclusive.

Holy Mother Church has stated that all those with 2 X chromosomes are female and all others are male so actual anatomy is irrelevant to the issue and we must abide by that no matter what shape their bodies are nor how they think.

This is interesting. Where did you find this information documented?

 

[Carmel_B]

Well even if someone is born with both external sexual organs, they actual sex of the person can be figured out by looking at there chromosomes to see if they are a man that happens have to have female sexual organs or if it is a female that has male sexual organs. This needs to be looked at to figure out what kind of corrective surgery would need to be done.

Correct, but we cannot restrict it to those with ambiguous genitalia. For example, this man:

PATIENTS: A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.

Both mother (without ambiguous genitalia) and son (with ambiguous genitalia) have the same genes they have only got 1 X chromosome so should be surgically normalised at birth so as not to threaten humanity’s existence by confusing everyone about their true sex. As the Holy Father said:

(The Church) must also protect man from self-destruction. What is needed is something like a human ecology, correctly understood.
…
If the Church speaks of the nature of the human being as man and woman, and demands that this order of creation be respected, this is not some antiquated metaphysics. What is involved here is faith in the Creator and a readiness to listen to the “language” of creation. To disregard this would be the self-destruction of man himself, and hence the destruction of God’s own work.
…
To carry our reflection further, we must remember that the problem of the environment is complex; one might compare it to a multifaceted prism. Creatures differ from one another and can be protected, or endangered, in different ways, as we know from daily experience. One such attack comes from laws or proposals which, in the name of fighting discrimination, strike at the biological basis of the difference between the sexes.

The existence of such monsters strikes at the biological basis of the difference between the sexes so must be surgically corrected in all Christian kindness to preserve the human ecology and prevent man’s self-destruction and for their own good. These people are human so it would be evil to kill them doing that would be as sinful as the infanticide of aborting normal babies. Surgically removing offending organs and compelling them to behave correctly according to their true sex as defined by Holy Mother Church is the only charitable thing to do in these distressing circumstances.

 

[Carmel_B]

How can this be? Intersex conditions are diagnosed by physical examination and chromosomes. Some of these conditions are found at birth because they are life threatening. GID is diagnosed by psychologists, not by physical examination. People with GID have a problem with their natal sex. People that are intersex are “in-between” sexes physically to various degrees.

The American Psychiatric Association annual meeting in 2009 had two seminars on this subject Seminar S6 admitted that it was not a psychological issue but had to be retained in the psychiatric diagnostic manual until the physiological diagnostic manual was updated else patients would be denied treatment. Seminar S10 explained the biological evidence for transsexuality being an Intersex condition in exactly those words as has been accepted in some countries in court cases based on medical evidence for many years now.

All of the various brain studies of transsexuals:

• should be easily repeatable. There have been problems with this.
• do not show cause and effect. What caused these brains to form the way they did? Are the people transsexual because of their brains or are their brains the way they are because they are transsexual? In other words, does our identity determine our brain characteristics or do our brain characteristics determine our identity?
• ignore the plasticity of the human brain. Our brains grow from birth until our early twenties. Our brains change during our lives and are proven to be flexible and adaptable.
• do not prove that GID is present at birth or pre-natal.

The effect of pre-natal hormones on the brain is inconclusive.

• The results regarding BSTc layer have been repeated as have many of the MRI studies none of the attempts at repeatability have failed but there have been few of them
• The sexual dimorphism is some areas has been shown to exist from the 26th week after conception though in other areas only happens after puberty. Causation of the sexually dimorphic changes is not linked to hormones after birth we know this from animal experiments. It is linked to hormonal environment in the womb.
• Certain parts of the brain are plastic others are not there is no evidence showing plasticity in the lymbic nucleus
• Pre-natal causation of cross-sexed brain morphology and post-natal behavior has been shown by animal experiments to be caused by hormonal environment in the womb while we cannot be certain that humans have the same pattern as all other mammals there is a strong inference that they do from studies of intersexed humans exposed to hormonal anomalies.

**Clinical Implications of the Organizational and Activational Effects of Hormones **M.Diamond Hormones and Behavior 55 (2009) 621–632T

The preponderance of evidence seems to indicate that the theory of organization-activation for the development of sexual behavior is certain for non-human mammals and almost certain for humans

. The science is well-evidenced but produces ambiguous conclusions as there are some who are masculine in some parts of the brain and feminine in others depending on timing of development so this is no more a satisfactory test of true sex than looking at genitalia is. The Church’s view is simple unambiguous and easy to test for and does not depend on appearance or personality.

This is interesting. Where did you find this information documented?

As reported in the Jakarta Post and elsewhere. thejakartapost.com/news/2010/06/07/church-says-alterina%E2%80%99s-marriage-illegal.html

The Indonesian Bishops’ Council (KWI) has declared the controversial marriage of transgender Alterina Hofan illegal, kompas.com reported on Monday.

KWI secretary Benny Susetyo said the Catholic Church could not accept the marriage and suggested that Alterina should seek medication rather than changing her sex status.

Alterina has the rare Klinefelter’s syndrome which gives him an extra X chromosome, making him look more effeminate. After years of operations, he documented himself as a man and even married Jane Hadipoespito.

Benny said the health problem could not justify the change in sex status. “Her DNA and genetics prove she is female, therefore she can be medically cured,” the priest said.

Anyone with 2 X chromosomes is female and should seek medical treatment to normalise themselves the Indonesian Catholic Bishops have spoken and this is the only Church teaching on the subject at the moment. The Catholic Church has told all 47XXY people that their DNA and genetics prove they are female so must be medically cured of their effeminate male appearance in order to protect society even if it sterilises them. The Holy Father has stated repeatedly that the unambiguous divide between male and female is paramount to the whole of creation and both humanity’s survival and God’s plan depends on it so anything that appears to be different has to be lovingly corrected.

The Church has spoken and we must obey without question or be heretic.

 

[PLeeD]

…As the Holy Father said:The existence of such monsters strikes at the biological basis of the difference between the sexes so must be surgically corrected in all Christian kindness to preserve the human ecology and prevent man’s self-destruction and for their own good. These people are human so it would be evil to kill them doing that would be as sinful as the infanticide of aborting normal babies. Surgically removing offending organs and compelling them to behave correctly according to their true sex as defined by Holy Mother Church is the only charitable thing to do in these distressing circumstances.

Speaking of insane… This sounds quite Third Reichish.

 

[jmcrae]

Speaking of insane… This sounds quite Third Reichish.

It also doesn’t sound at all like the Holy Father’s style - I wonder if something is being attributed to him that he did not actually write.

 

[PLeeD]

It also doesn’t sound at all like the Holy Father’s style - I wonder if something is being attributed to him that he did not actually write.

Doesn’t sound like Jesus’ style either.

Seems like a twisted paraphrase that’s been passed through a translation filter composed of two parts lunacy and one part dementia. Paging Dr. Mengele…

 

[jmcrae]

Doesn’t sound like Jesus’ style either.

Seems like a twisted paraphrase that’s been passed through a translation filter composed of two parts lunacy and one part dementia. Paging Dr. Mengele…

I have to agree.

 

[RichP]

This news article is confusing, contradictory, and misleading.

[As reported in the Jakarta Post and elsewhere. http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/06/07/church-says-alterina’s-marriage-illegal.html

Anyone with 2 X chromosomes is female and should seek medical treatment to normalise themselves the Indonesian Catholic Bishops have spoken and this is the only Church teaching on the subject at the moment. The Catholic Church has told all 47XXY people that their DNA and genetics prove they are female so must be medically cured of their effeminate male appearance in order to protect society even if it sterilises them.
First, the term “all” is not used in this particular news report. The article is about one intersex person in one particular situation. Nowhere does it state or even imply that what the Church says here applies to all similar people no matter what the situation. That is a huge misinterpretation of what was stated. The person in the article is an intersex male (Klinefelter’s syndrome) but the doctor’s put “female” on his birth certificate when he was born. What the article stated is that the Church opposed this particular marriage because his birth certificate said he was female (which he isn’t). (Also, the Church is against sterilization so I’m not sure this statement is accurate. In addition, most men with Klinefelter’s are infertile so recommending sterilization for someone who is infertile just does not make any sense at all.)

Just because one priest spoke on this particular situation (or any particular situation) does not mean that 1) he has spoken for Holy Mother Church, 2) his statement is 100% correct and factual, 3) what he says applies generically to all situations, 4) the discussion is closed and everyone’s has to obey or else…

Now, to change subjects (and possibly a new topic for discussion…)

The Holy Father has stated repeatedly that the unambiguous divide between male and female is paramount to the whole of creation and both humanity’s survival and God’s plan depends on it so anything that appears to be different has to be lovingly corrected.

The Church has spoken and we must obey without question or be heretic.

Here is what Benedict actually said in part of a speech he gave in December 2008 to members of the Roman Curia:

Since faith in the Creator is an essential part of the Christian creed, the Church cannot and must not limit herself to passing on to the faithful the message of salvation alone. She has a responsibility towards creation, and must also publicly assert this responsibility. In so doing, she must not only defend earth, water and air as gifts of creation belonging to all. She must also protect man from self-destruction. What is needed is something like a human ecology, correctly understood.

If the Church speaks of the nature of the human being as man and woman, and demands that this order of creation be respected, this is not some antiquated metaphysics. What is involved here is faith in the Creator and a readiness to listen to the “language” of creation. To disregard this would be the self-destruction of man himself, and hence the destruction of God’s own work.

What is often expressed and understood by the term “gender” ultimately ends up being man’s attempt at self-emancipation from creation and the Creator. Man wants to be his own master, and alone – always and exclusively – to determine everything that concerns him. Yet in this way he lives in opposition to the truth, in opposition to the Creator Spirit.

Rain forests deserve indeed to be protected, but no less so does man, as a creature having an innate “message” which does not contradict our freedom, but is instead its very premise.

The great scholastic theologians described marriage, understood as the life-long bond between a man and a woman, as a sacrament of creation, which the Creator himself instituted and which Christ – without modifying the “message” of creation – then made part of the history of his covenant with humanity.

The Pope has many different types of written and spoken communication. Each type has their own priority and importance. The Pope says very few things that we must obey. This speech does not fall into that category and is pretty close to the bottom in terms of priority and importance. One can disagree with what was said here and not become a heretic…

However, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

Man and woman have been created, which is to say, willed by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. “Being man” or “being woman” is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator. Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity “in the image of God”. In their “being-man” and “being-woman”, they reflect the Creator’s wisdom and goodness. (CCC 369)

The Catechism is not a scientific textbook on chromosomes and genetics. It does not exclude exceptions but it does not discuss them either. If you have an issue with this, then you might have an issue with a significant amount of Catholic theology (which is one of the definitions of heresy).

 

[Carmel_B]

Here is what Benedict actually said in part of a speech he gave in December 2008 to members of the Roman Curia:

The Pope has many different types of written and spoken communication. Each type has their own priority and importance. The Pope says very few things that we must obey. This speech does not fall into that category and is pretty close to the bottom in terms of priority and importance. One can disagree with what was said here and not become a heretic…

You ignore what the Holy Father also said later in 2010 on this issue to the members of the Vatican Diplomatic Corps.

To carry our reflection further, we must remember that the problem of the environment is complex; one might compare it to a multifaceted prism. Creatures differ from one another and can be protected, or endangered, in different ways, as we know from daily experience. **One such attack comes from laws or proposals which, in the name of fighting discrimination, strike at the biological basis of the difference between the sexes. **I am thinking, for example, of certain countries in Europe or North and South America.

This is not speaking *ex cathedra *nor is it an official article of dogma promulgated by the magisterium but if repeated pronouncements by the Holy Father on the subject as affirmed by the words of a conclave of Bishops do not define Church Teaching in the absence of those then what does?

 

[RichP]

You ignore what the Holy Father also said later in 2010 on this issue to the members of the Vatican Diplomatic Corps.This is not speaking *ex cathedra *nor is it an official article of dogma promulgated by the magisterium but if repeated pronouncements by the Holy Father on the subject as affirmed by the words of a conclave of Bishops do not define Church Teaching in the absence of those then what does?

You are correct that the Pope was not speaking ex cathedra.

Affirming “the biological basis of the difference between the sexes” does not speak directly to the issue of people with gender identity issues nor is it a denial of people with intersex issues. And this has absolutely no bearing on what was reported in Indonesia.

Repeated pronouncements are just repeated pronouncements. What the Pope has stated is an exposition, an amplification of existing “Church Teaching”. There isn’t anything new there…

Is something missing? Are you looking for something more definitive, more specific from the Pope? We often tend to get dogma, doctrine, and discipline mixed up. We may be looking for a dogmatic statement stating that certain chromosomes are needed to determine male or female but that isn’t going to happen…

 

[Adventurer]

Say a physical man chooses–after decades of torment–to get surgery to become a physical female. That person would still have the DNA of a man, so I assume the new “female” would still be a male in the eyes of the Church/faith. Is that right? Is it therefore a sin for that man to get the surgery?

The above was your question.

Let me just quote the bible here, in my answer:
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkness, revellings, and such like: of which I tell you before, as I have told you in time past, which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Think that was a misquote, look at Galatians 5:19-20.
Also look at 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, note where in Corinthians the word “effeminate” is written.
Still in doubt? Why not ask a Priest:thumbsup:, he’s there to help you.

 

[Carmel_B]

Say a physical man chooses–after decades of torment–to get surgery to become a physical female. That person would still have the DNA of a man

Not necessarily they may never have had the DNA of a man in the first place.

You assume that a physical man is a man when we know that this may not be the case and you can have two individuals who are genetically identical but one is a physical man and the other is a physical woman.

DNA can also change due to medical therapies usually bone marrow transplants but can change from natural causes too.

See for example The Man Who Lost His Name—and His Genetic Identity

The engraftment had worked. A wave of relief washed over Drew as he hugged his family. There was more, the doctor said. Drew wasn’t just a new man. “Your blood is 100 percent female,” he said. Eric Drew, now a 37-year-old man, had the blood of an Italian girl.

It is not just the blood because at cell turnover and our cells only last an average of seven years before they are replaced the whole body gradually becomes genetically the same as the donated bone marrow.

Bone marrow-derived cells from male donors can compose endometrial glands in female transplant recipients by Ikoma et al in Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2009 Dec;201(6):608.e1-8 :

CONCLUSION: Donor-derived cells are capable of composing endometrium in recipients, even those of the opposite sex.

This means that a woman can have ovaries where the cells have DNA that is that of the male donor after a bone marrow transplant.

This causes certain difficulties for Theologians who believe that there is “male DNA” and “female DNA” and the opposition to stem cell research may be partly because of the difficulties of reconciling the questions of identity involved with the Theology of the Body. It may be best to let such Nature take its course in such cases where identity is threatened and make the patient as comfortable as possible rather than allowing them a form of existence which is perplexing theologically.

This does not help though with the cases of mosaicism and chimerality where similar effects can happen and the situation is even more complicated when the chromosomes are neither XX nor XY but XXY and so on.

 

[jmcrae]

Not necessarily they may never have had the DNA of a man in the first place.

This would be a rare circumstance indeed, to have the DNA of a female, but the natural appearance of a male.

My understanding is that the vast majority of sex change operations are done on people who “feel” like the opposite sex in some way (and it typically has more to do with cultural expressions that are more typical of that sex, rather than anything , but have the DNA and all of the natural characteristics of their own sex.

 

[Carmel_B]

This would be a rare circumstance indeed, to have the DNA of a female, but the natural appearance of a male.

1 in 450 apparent males have 47XXY chromosomes. The rate of apparent males that have 46XX chromosomes (ICD code Q99.1) is not well measured but is thought to be on the order of 1 in 100,000. The rate of Swyer syndrome (46XY apparent females)(ICD code Q97.3) is about 1 in 50,000 and the rate of CAIS syndrome (also 46,XY apparent females) (ICD code E35.5) is thought to be similar. Taken together the number of people who have sex chromosomes that do not match their appearance is about 1 in 300 for apparent males and 1 in 1000 for apparent females.

My understanding is that the vast majority of sex change operations are done on people who “feel” like the opposite sex in some way (and it typically has more to do with cultural expressions that are more typical of that sex, rather than anything , but have the DNA and all of the natural characteristics of their own sex.

We know of no cases where Transsexuals had entirely the anatomy of the sex they appear to be. In all cases we have measured they had some degree of cross-sexed anatomy but of course we have only measured a few thousand or so not all of them and such cases as you think are the vast majority might exist.

See for example
Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041

The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.

White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study. - Rametti et al, J Psychiatr Res. 2010 Jun 8.

CONCLUSIONS: Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals.

About 1 in 10 apparently Transsexual people also have externally obvious Intersex conditions such as ambiguous genitalia before treatment. This technically disqualifies them from a diagnosis of Transsexuality but many remain undiagnosed until the surgeon operates and finds their anatomy is inconsistent with their appearance. Many people who transition were surgically altered from an ambiguous appearance to one that does not upset people when they were infants and in such cases about one in three say that the alteration was in the wrong direction and seek to have it “corrected”.

The Johns Hopkins Clinic has a “gender review” panel including a priest who decides which babies should be castrated and surgically altered so they do not upset society and their parents. Those who object to this assignment later in life are therefore in rebellion against the Church’s representatives.

At Johns Hopkins Hospital, they have a “gender committee” that meets whenever an intersex baby is born. The team is headed by a pediatric endrocrinologist, but also contains a surgeon, a social worker and a clergyman among others. Together with the parents the team evaluates the baby and decides upon the best course of action.
…
ISNA recommends letting the patient decide whether or not to have surgery, which means waiting until a child is old enough to make such a complicated decision.

But many physicians believe it would be more harmful to wait, and worry about the impact of growing up intersex in a world unprepared to deal with such variety. “I’ve had parents say, ‘I can’t stand changing the diaper,’” Peters comments.

But ISNA argues it is society’s job to adjust to intersex individuals and recommends counseling for families and patients dealing with the issue.

Such selfish people believe that it is the Church and Society that should change to accommodate them when they are only a tiny minority and many people are nauseated at the thought of their existence as it encourages homosexuality and other grave sins. Surgical normalisation is the only solution that we have that promotes a healthy society divided into men and women as Genesis 1:27 states and if that causes some people to be castrated and suffer as the result we all have our crosses to bear and they should bear this thorn in the flesh without complaining and upsetting everyone else.

 

[Gregory_I]

Actually, the definition of insanity is the failure to conform your mind to reality.

If a person is transgendered (impossible actually), they have failed to conform their mind to the reality that their Sex is an indication of their Gender.

A bird doesn’t fly because it has wings: It has wings so it can fly. YOu are not a man or woman because your parts are different: YOur parts are different because you are a man or a woman.

The failure to acknowledge this reality is a lapse into insanity.

No offense.

 

[jmcrae]

We know of no cases where Transsexuals had entirely the anatomy of the sex they appear to be. In all cases we have measured they had some degree of cross-sexed anatomy but of course we have only measured a few thousand or so not all of them and such cases as you think are the vast majority might exist.

I find that hard to believe. I was once acquainted with five men who were having gender reassignment surgery, and none of them had had anything the matter with them prior to the operations, other than just feeling like they were supposed to be women.

 

[Gregory_I]

I find that hard to believe. I was once acquainted with five men who were having gender reassignment surgery, and none of them had had anything the matter with them prior to the operations, other than just feeling like they were supposed to be women.

The definition of which, is insanity.

 

[jmcrae]

The definition of which, is insanity.

I think you have a good point.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

:clapping: I think so too.