People with gender identity issues and sex change surgeries!

[Carmel_B]

Actually, the definition of insanity is the failure to conform your mind to reality.

So: an analogy
You are a Goldfish
That you believe that you are human is a sign of insanity as the reality is that you are a goldfish. An insane goldfish.

In summary in your argument you assume without evidence the answer then use that assumption as proof of your proposition. You assume that transsexual MtoF are male and thus consider transsexuality to be disproven and also they must be insane as they are male not female. Classic circular reasoning and begging the question. .

The only authority for stating someone’s sex is the Church and anyone who usurps that authority and also goes against Church teaching is by definition an heretic.

Leaving aside such matters as it disputed just exactly what the Holy Mother Church teachings on the subject are please define the sex of these people:

usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html

Do you assert that their sex and gender change due to their body changing naturally? If they have surgery to prevent this natural change are they female as they appear to be at birth or are they male anyway because of nature took its course their female bodies would have changed? How do you account for the fact that transsexuals all have mixed body parts some masculinised some feminised before starting treatment?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

The only authority for stating someone’s sex is the Church and anyone who usurps that authority and also goes against Church teaching is by definition an heretic.

Prove it.

 

[kenofken]

This is one area of science where the Church is still mired in utterly medieval thinking. They understand nothing of the science regarding gender identity disorder/transgenderism and they are determined not to learn anything which might contradict their worldview. As a result, they have no credibility among mainstream scientists on this issue.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

This is one area of science where the Church is still mired in utterly medieval thinking. They understand nothing of the science regarding gender identity disorder/transgenderism and they are determined not to learn anything which might contradict their worldview. As a result, they have no credibility among mainstream scientists on this issue.

What “science regarding gender identity disorder/transgenderism” are you referring to?

 

[kenofken]

What “science regarding gender identity disorder/transgenderism” are you referring to?

Medical science. The kind done by decades of research among those working with and treating these disorders, as opposed to guys whose sole understanding of the issue comes from theological pronouncements on how nature “must” work and apologetics exercises.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Medical science.

Obviously. Which studies? Specific genetic sequences, chemical pathways and mechanisms. Not a blanket statement that “science” supports it.

The kind done by decades of research among those working with and treating these disorders,

Now that would be a biased community wouldn’t it? What empirical evidence do you have? Preferably by people whose livelihood doesn’t depend on work with that group.

as opposed to guys whose sole understanding of the issue comes from theological pronouncements on how nature “must” work and apologetics exercises.

What does this have to do with anything? The scientific method has no way to account for theology or apologetics.

Provide cold, hard empirical facts.

 

[Gregory_I]

Any interruption of the Natural processes intended by God is a corruption and deprivation of Nature, which is as it is according to GOd’s will.

Look, God didn’t look the other way when he gave the CHild who was conceived a soul. THat Child may grow up to believe himself a woman in gender, but not in sex. Sex and Gender are different. Sex is your physiognomy: Gender is spiritual and psychological, it is your femininity or masculinity.

But Your Sex reflects your Gender, because they are analagous. A Woman is receptive, so she is formed to be receptive. A man is active and positive and aggressive and formed to be that way.

TO feel as if your Gender does not match your body does not mean that is the case: It simply means you have not chosen to develop your understanding of your gender based on your sex, and that you have never learned what it means to be a 'Man" and so you behave feminine.

 

[Carmel_B]

Any interruption of the Natural processes intended by God is a corruption and deprivation of Nature, which is as it is according to GOd’s will.

If I interpret you correctly that means you are against medicine and would have criticised Our Lord because he healed the sick and thus interrupted Natural processes intended by God the Father.

I don’t think that that is what you meant. Perhaps you are just against all medicine not practiced by Our Lord giving him an exception or possibly you are not against the practice of medicine at all as long as it does not interfere with certain Natural processes that you feel have to be God’s will but not other Natural processes that you feel are not but in that case how do you tell the difference?

Would you consider this case to be rightly or wrongly decided and what arguments would you see on both sides in making your determination?

home.vicnet.net.au/%7Eaissg/2010_FamCA_237.pdf

1. Sally was born into a loving family in 1995. She had no health difficulties at birth and, to all intents and purposes, appeared to be a happy and healthy baby girl.

1. That remained the case until she was about 11. At that time, her mother deposes

… she told me that she’d found two lumps; one in the right side of her abdomen, and the other in her left labia. She asked me if they were “nuts” meaning testes. I immediately said no, but due to [Sally’s] concerns, I arranged for her to see our local GP. The GP examined [Sally], and said that the lumps were a normal part of the puberty process. I thought nothing of it after that.

1. Sally’s mother goes on to depose,

When she was in grade 7, she asked me why she had not started her periods, as most of her friends at school had started to get periods. I told her that girls start to have periods [at] different times, and not to be too concerned about it. [Sally’s] breast development appeared to be normal.
[Sally] had also raised the concerns regarding a deepening of her voice.
The deepening of [Sally’s] voice had happened gradually. I had never really given it any thought; as far as I was concerned, it was [Sally].

1. In early 2009, behavioural issues manifested themselves at school. Ultimately, Sally consulted a paediatrician. Initial tests revealed that Sally had XY genotype, did not have a uterus, and had gonads present in her pelvis. That initial investigation led to further specialist medical consultations, to which further reference will shortly be made.

1. Ultimately, specialist medical and psychiatric opinion aligns in recommending a surgical procedure which 141/2 year old Sally also seeks, and in which she is supported by each of her parents. That procedure is the performance of invasive and irreversible surgery; a gonadectomy, which would see removal of her gonads, and, thus, all vestiges of her, as it were, “maleness.”

1. Orders are applied for by the Hospital who would have responsibility for those doctors who would perform the mooted operation. That hospital applies for orders, relevantly, that the proposed surgery, involving the bilateral removal of her gonads, be authorised by her parents and that this authorisation operate as all such authority as is needed at law, by which to perform that operation.

 

[Carmel_B]

Obviously. Which studies? Specific genetic sequences, chemical pathways and mechanisms. Not a blanket statement that “science” supports it.

What empirical evidence do you have? Preferably by people whose livelihood doesn’t depend on work with that group

Provide cold, hard empirical facts.

You’ll find some of them in:

Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;

Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–204

Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.

Discordant Sexual Identity in Some Genetic Males with Cloacal Exstrophy Assigned to Female Sex at Birth by Reiner and Gearhart, N Engl J Med. 2004 January 22; 350(4): 333–341.

The role of androgen receptors in the masculinization of brain and behavior: what we’ve learned from the testicular feminization mutation. Zulago et al. Horm Behav 53:613-626

White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study. - Rametti et al,* J Psychiatr Res*. 2010 Jun 8.

Regional cerebral blood flow changes in female to male gender identity disorder. - Tanaka et al, Psychiatry Clin Neurosci. 2010 Apr 1;64(2):157-61.

“Prenatal hormones versus postnatal socialization by parents as determinants of male-typical toy play in girls with congenital adrenal hyperplasia” Pasterski VL, Geffner ME, Brain C, Hindmarsh P, Brook C, Hines M Child Dev 76(1):264-78 2005

AMH and AMH receptor defects in persistent Müllerian duct syndrome by Josso et al Human Reproduction Update, Volume 11, Number 4, July 2005 , pp. 351-356(6)

Disorders of sex development expose transcriptional autonomy of genetic sex and androgen-programmed hormonal sex in human blood leukocytes. by Holterhus et al BMC Genomics. 2009 Jul 1;10:292.

Male Gender Identity in Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome by T’sjoen et al. Arch Sex Behav. 2010 Apr 1.

Biological and Psychosocial Correlates of Adult Gender‐Variant Identities: a Review by J.F.Veale & D.E.Clarke, Personality and Individual Differences (2009) 48(4), 357-366

Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity and sexual orientation D.Swaab & A.Garcia-Fulgaras Functional Neurology, Jan-Mar 2009:

Changing your sex changes your brain: influences of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure by Pol et al,* Europ Jnl Endocrinology*, Vol 155, suppl_1, S107-S114 2006

Neuroimaging Differences in Spatial Cognition between Men and Male-to-Female Transsexuals Before and During Hormone Therapy by Scoening et al J Sex Med. 2009 Sep 14.

Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism. by Luders et al Neuroimage. 2009 Jul 15;46(4):904-7.

Clinical Implications of the Organizational and Activational Effects of Hormones M.Diamond Hormones and Behavior 55 (2009) 621–632

Dichotic Listening, Handedness, Brain Organization and Transsexuality Govier et al International Journal of Transgenderism, 12:144–154, 2010

Atypical Gender Development: a review Besser et al* International Journal of Transgenderism* 9(1): 29-44. 2006

Biased-Interaction Theory of Psychosexual Development: “How Does One Know if One is Male or Female?” M.Diamond Sex Roles (2006) 55:589–600

Specific Cerebral Activation due to Visual Erotic Stimuli in Male-to-Female Transsexuals Compared with Male and Female Controls: An fMRI Study by Gizewski et al J Sex Med 2009;6:440–448.

None of that involves genetics only anomalies in the hormonal environment in the womb. Animal experiments show similar neurological effects the syndrome is completely repeateable. Farmers have observed freemartin heifers and other neurologically intersexed livestock since time immemorial so it is no great stretch to believe that humans might not be uniquely exceptional and unlike all other mammals ever examined so subject to neurological cross-sexing and thus instinct and identity

The complete list of references is too long but you could start with looking at these as they were used by Prof Sid Ecker in his presentation to the American Psychiatric Association on the biological basis of transsexuality in 2009:

Arnold, A. P. (2004). Sex chromosomes and brain gender. Nat Rev Neurosci 5,
701-8.

Arnold, A. P., Xu, J., Grisham, W., Chen, X., Kim, Y. H., & Itoh, Y. (2004). Minireview:
Sex chromosomes and brain sexual differentiation. Endocrinology 145,

Bentz, E. K., Hefler, L. A., Kaufmann, U., Huber, J. C., Kolbus, A., & Tempfer, C. B.
(2008). A polymorphism of the CYP17 gene related to sex steroid metabolism
is associated with female-to-male but not male-to-female transsexualism.
Fertil Steril 90, 56-9.

Bentz, E. K., Schneeberger, C., Hefler, L. A., van Trotsenburg, M., Kaufmann, U.,
Huber, J. C., & Tempfer, C. B. (2007). A common polymorphism of the
SRD5A2 gene and transsexualism. Reprod Sci 14, 705-9.

etc

 

[warpspeedpetey]

If I interpret…

The OP isn’t talking about people with hermaphroditic conditions. Gender Identity issues are about identity, not biology. it seems like that is a psychological issue.

 

[Carmel_B]

Provide cold, hard empirical facts.

I did but as you don’t consider empiricism has any validity I don’t think that is what you’re actually interested in you just want to argue.

You should immediately dismiss anyone who insists on the need for empirical evidence to prove anything. If they are not informed enough to know that they are employing a logical contradiction. Then they are not informed enough to be taken seriously.

For instance

If a statement can only be proven true by empirical evidence, the very statement " a statement can only be proven true by empirical evidence" is not itself supported by any empirical evidence and is therefore refutes itself.

This is an extremely effective way to deal with the insistence for physical evidence. It won’t stop the individual doing the insisting from continuing, but it does inoculate every other person in the audience from such silliness. When they continue to insist on the need for empirical evidence it only makes them and their argument look bad.

Your hypocrisy is evident however your trolling performed a useful service as “Simplicio” to my “Salviati” so that a very small part of the massive mountain of evidence could be shown to other people who are actually interested in determining the facts rather than interested in dielectic. You made a useful dupe.

 

[Carmel_B]

The OP isn’t talking about people with hermaphroditic conditions.

You assume what you are trying to prove.

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones

Intersex (a term preferred to "hermaphrodite) means a body neither completely male nor completely female and a person with some parts of their anatomy masculinised and other parts feminised as with transsexuals is by definition intersexed.

Gender Identity issues are about identity, not biology

You assume what you are trying to prove again it is possible that gender identity is a matter of biology.

Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35

The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

You’ll find some of them in:

Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;

Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–204

Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.

Discordant Sexual Identity in Some Genetic Males with Cloacal Exstrophy Assigned to Female Sex at Birth by Reiner and Gearhart, N Engl J Med. 2004 January 22; 350(4): 333–341.

The role of androgen receptors in the masculinization of brain and behavior: what we’ve learned from the testicular feminization mutation. Zulago et al. Horm Behav 53:613-626

White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study. - Rametti et al,* J Psychiatr Res*. 2010 Jun 8.

Regional cerebral blood flow changes in female to male gender identity disorder. - Tanaka et al, Psychiatry Clin Neurosci. 2010 Apr 1;64(2):157-61.

“Prenatal hormones versus postnatal socialization by parents as determinants of male-typical toy play in girls with congenital adrenal hyperplasia” Pasterski VL, Geffner ME, Brain C, Hindmarsh P, Brook C, Hines M Child Dev 76(1):264-78 2005

AMH and AMH receptor defects in persistent Müllerian duct syndrome by Josso et al Human Reproduction Update, Volume 11, Number 4, July 2005 , pp. 351-356(6)

Disorders of sex development expose transcriptional autonomy of genetic sex and androgen-programmed hormonal sex in human blood leukocytes. by Holterhus et al BMC Genomics. 2009 Jul 1;10:292.

Male Gender Identity in Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome by T’sjoen et al. Arch Sex Behav. 2010 Apr 1.

Biological and Psychosocial Correlates of Adult Gender‐Variant Identities: a Review by J.F.Veale & D.E.Clarke, Personality and Individual Differences (2009) 48(4), 357-366

Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity and sexual orientation D.Swaab & A.Garcia-Fulgaras Functional Neurology, Jan-Mar 2009:

Changing your sex changes your brain: influences of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure by Pol et al,* Europ Jnl Endocrinology*, Vol 155, suppl_1, S107-S114 2006

Neuroimaging Differences in Spatial Cognition between Men and Male-to-Female Transsexuals Before and During Hormone Therapy by Scoening et al J Sex Med. 2009 Sep 14.

Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism. by Luders et al Neuroimage. 2009 Jul 15;46(4):904-7.

Clinical Implications of the Organizational and Activational Effects of Hormones M.Diamond Hormones and Behavior 55 (2009) 621–632

Dichotic Listening, Handedness, Brain Organization and Transsexuality Govier et al International Journal of Transgenderism, 12:144–154, 2010

Atypical Gender Development: a review Besser et al* International Journal of Transgenderism* 9(1): 29-44. 2006

Biased-Interaction Theory of Psychosexual Development: “How Does One Know if One is Male or Female?” M.Diamond Sex Roles (2006) 55:589–600

Specific Cerebral Activation due to Visual Erotic Stimuli in Male-to-Female Transsexuals Compared with Male and Female Controls: An fMRI Study by Gizewski et al J Sex Med 2009;6:440–448.

None of that involves genetics only anomalies in the hormonal environment in the womb. Animal experiments show similar neurological effects the syndrome is completely repeateable. Farmers have observed freemartin heifers and other neurologically intersexed livestock since time immemorial so it is no great stretch to believe that humans might not be uniquely exceptional and unlike all other mammals ever examined so subject to neurological cross-sexing and thus instinct and identity

The complete list of references is too long but you could start with looking at these as they were used by Prof Sid Ecker in his presentation to the American Psychiatric Association on the biological basis of transsexuality in 2009:

Arnold, A. P. (2004). Sex chromosomes and brain gender. Nat Rev Neurosci 5,
701-8.

Arnold, A. P., Xu, J., Grisham, W., Chen, X., Kim, Y. H., & Itoh, Y. (2004). Minireview:
Sex chromosomes and brain sexual differentiation. Endocrinology 145,

Bentz, E. K., Hefler, L. A., Kaufmann, U., Huber, J. C., Kolbus, A., & Tempfer, C. B.
(2008). A polymorphism of the CYP17 gene related to sex steroid metabolism
is associated with female-to-male but not male-to-female transsexualism.
Fertil Steril 90, 56-9.

Bentz, E. K., Schneeberger, C., Hefler, L. A., van Trotsenburg, M., Kaufmann, U.,
Huber, J. C., & Tempfer, C. B. (2007). A common polymorphism of the
SRD5A2 gene and transsexualism. Reprod Sci 14, 705-9.

etc

Nice try. Now which one supports your claim and how? Simply claiming that all these studies support your position is not the same as using them to support your position.

 

[valentino]

gregory1;Just out of curiosity.How do they determine the gender of a hermorphidite?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I did but as you don’t consider empiricism has any validity

Its not a consideration on my part at all. Its just a part of the history of the Philosophy of Science. It has nothing to do with me or my opinion whatsoever. Its a straight out fact completely independent of how I would like things to be.

I can easily demonstrate its logical invalidity

The empirical statement.

A statement can only be proven by empirical evidence

Yet there is no empirical evidence that shows a statement can only be proven with empirical evidence.

Therefore

The Doctrine of empiricism is self refuting. It is logically invalid. It is not a truth statement.

This doesn’t have jack to do with me, any more than geometry is the opinion of Euclid.

Atheists never like to hear it. But there is no way out of it. Its just logic. It lets me know right away if I have an intellectually honest partner, or just some guy willing to use a logically invalid statement, to further his cherished beliefs.

Really, what would you honestly think of a person who wouldn’t accept the invalidity of (not A = A)? You would be laughing at them just as much as I would.

I don’t think that is what you’re actually interested in you just want to argue.

The empirical method taught in schools is not the same thing as the Doctrine of Empiricism. It doesn’t claim that proof of a statement can only be achieved by empirical evidence. Its simply a method that restricts the variables and elements of a hypothesis to physical evidence. Things that can be tested, weighted, measure, etc. Since we are only talking about empirical items and their interactions, it is perfectly acceptable to ask for evidence in kind. The problem comes when people don’t know the difference between the method taught to scientists and the Doctrine that was expanded by philosophers.

Don’t blame me for doing my research. I am simply asking for the evidence to back up your claims about physical reality. I don’t think that there is any. Prove me wrong. I would be happy to talk about whatever evidence you have.

Your hypocrisy is evident

Which part is hypocrisy again? Oh…wait…you weren’t aware of the epistemological status of the empiricism you claim is valid.

however your trolling performed a useful service as “Simplicio” to my “Salviati”

So asking for evidence for your claims is now trolling? how convenient for you.

so that a very small part of the massive mountain of evidence could be shown to other people who are actually interested in determining the facts rather than interested in dielectic.You made a useful dupe.

So you duped me into asking you for evidence? Really? Were you so desperate to type out an insult that you are now claiming that you duped me into asking for evidence? Really? Yeah, and maybe the lawyers are duping the judge into asking for evidence.
evidence!

 

[warpspeedpetey]

You assume what you are trying to prove.

I just stated what the OP is talking about. i am not sure what you think I am trying to prove?

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

A 16 year old study? I figured this is about the quality of the science you were using.

Zhou used all of 6 cadavers. Not much of a sample there huh? That small of a sample size makes any conclusions drawn from it nearly meaningless.

If you insist that this study is methodologically sound, I will be happy to discuss the other criticisms that abound for this study. But at that sample size, I’m not sure there is anywhere else to go.

You assume what you are trying to prove again it is possible that gender identity is a matter of biology.

I am not trying to prove anything, I have an opinion, at this point that’s all it is. That would be little more than curve fitting.

Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35

Abstract

The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct actionof testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb.

However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in transsexuality.

This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

Copyright © 2010 S. Karger AG, Basel

What is this study mean to prove? We know people are born with hermaphroditic conditions. This isn’t about transsexuals. Simply becoming the sex you actually genetically are isn’t trans anything.

Surely this isn’t the kind of information you are relying on.

 

[mgreen77]

Does it even matter if it’s biological or psychological?

In the end, I assume the Church is going to object to voluntary sterilization, altering healthy and functional organs and so on. It doesn’t necessarily have to be “against” sex changes in general.

 

[Gregory_I]

A hermaphrodite is a human: A human has ONE soul, not a hybridized soul between male and female, because of course, souls are immaterial. Gener is a spirituo-psychological property that resides in the soul. Now a hermaphrodite will be either a Human soul of a feminine gender, or a HUman soul of a masculine gender in a physically mutated body.

THer Person is not defined by the aberrations of nature, like a freak accident, but by the condition of their soul. I would say, since hermaphroditism has a broad spectrum, from pseudo-hermaphroditism (Where the entire external physiognomy is female, but the ovaries are actually testes!) to classic hermaphroditism. IN the case of Classic hermaphrositism, I assume its not identical in each person, and I also assume that there are definite physical tendencies towards development. For example, a person may be …:more" feminine than …masculine" in their physiognomy, indicating a feminine gender that has some hiccups bodily, or a more predominantly Masculine physiognomy which has some feminine hiccups, indicating a Male gender.

A better question would have been what about the case of an andrygone, someone without any clear physiognomy one way or the other.

THAT, I don’t know. If they wanna wear skirts and paint pictures and chase boys, call them girls. If they wanna work on motorcycles and wear pants and associate with the guys, call them boys. THe body may not manifest itself clearly, but gender always does. However I refuse to believe any person can have the “Worst birth defect ever” of being born in the wrong body.

What, did GOd get confused? Please. THese are along the lines of the same people who are known as “Otherkin” and believe they were supposed to be mythical characters born into a human body.

Transexuals and Otherkin are one and the same delusion to me.

 

[Dale_M]

A hermaphrodite is a human: A human has ONE soul, not a hybridized soul between male and female, because of course, souls are immaterial. Gener is a spirituo-psychological property that resides in the soul. Now a hermaphrodite will be either a Human soul of a feminine gender, or a HUman soul of a masculine gender in a physically mutated body.

This is an interesting viewpoint to me, and I would like to learn more about it.

Does the Catholic Church teach that souls are male or female? Certainly, our bodies are male and female. But you seem to be saying that someone can have a female soul in a male appearing body or, in the case of intersex individuals, a male soul in a body which is both male and female in appearance? I think this gets at the Church’s understanding of the different natures of men and women, and I am unclear on that subject as well.

Is the different nature of being a man or being a woman inherent in the body or in the soul or in the union of the two? If the nature of one’s gender is in the union between body and soul, how does the anyone (the Church, the individual, family, etc) decide what is the gender of intersex persons? Can it be known by anyone other than the individual’s own sense of what he or she is?

In light of the argument that transsexualism is an intersex condition, I think these are important questions.

 

[Gregory_I]

A persons gender is latent in the soul, because in heaven we recognize each other as who we were on earth. For example, Catholics pray to female saints, who are female souls in heaven. THe SOuls are different. Angels have no gender differentiation though, because they are not human souls, but are pure spirits, pure mind.

A human soul is MADE to be united to a human Body. TO exist outside of the body is an unnatural condition for the human soul. THerefore, though all in heaven are immensely blessed and happy, they will have even greater happiness on the last day, when the soul is reunited to the body.

Now, you realize hermaphroditism and androgyny are mutations of nature. THey do not belong to the natural order, but are aberrations.

Therefore, on the last day, a Persons body will be remade and glorified in a perfect and exalted state, and as either a man or a woman, not a hermaphrodite, which is an imperfection, imperfections having been swept away.

Then on what basis would God choose to give a person a male or female body? Accordint to their Gender.

I am not masculine because I have a particular sexual organ, nor is my wife feminine because she has a particular sexual organ; But we have those organs because we ARE either man or woman in our makeup, and as expressed by our bodies. A bird doesn’t fly because it has wings.

It has wings because it flies. Its external manifests what it IS in itself and its purpose and orientation.

That;s why transexuality is a delusion to me, and simply a case of spiritual envy from minds and hearts that were ill-formed growing up.