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valentino
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gregory: thanks
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PLeeD
Guest
Is this the teaching of the Catholic church, or is it only your opinion? Either way, it doesn’t seem to line up with what the bible says on the issue:
A)
In Matt 22, the Pharisees are questioning Jesus about the resurrection. They give the example of a woman who married one of seven brothers. That brother died childless, so according to tradition she married the next brother. He and the other brothers continued to die childless until she was the only one left. The Pharisees asked which brother would be her husband in heaven.
Jesus answered:
Matthew 22:30 “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.”."
You point out that angels are genderless. What does Jesus mean by his saying that we will be"like angels in heaven"?
B)
Paul teaches us in Galatians 3:
Galatians 3:26-28 *So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
*
C)
And then, the Catholic catechism states in paragraph 239:
“We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God.”
These three references that cast doubt on our retention of gender in heaven. Can you provide an official catholic source which teaches that we do retain gender in heaven?
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mgreen77
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Why “spiritual” envy? Envy of… ?
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Gregory_I
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Envy of either femininity, or masculinity. Dissatisfaction: SPoiled CHild mentality.
How are those in heaven like the angels? WEll, read the last verse you quoted: “THey will be like the angels in heaven, neither marrying nor given in marriage.”
The context is marriage: THere is none in heaven. But obviously GOd wants to retain the distinction between masculine and feminine, because he created us this way, and he has sought to bring creation to fulfillment in Christ, not abolish it. Grace builds on nature, it does not eliminate it.
How are those in heaven like the angels? WEll, read the last verse you quoted: “THey will be like the angels in heaven, neither marrying nor given in marriage.”
The context is marriage: THere is none in heaven. But obviously GOd wants to retain the distinction between masculine and feminine, because he created us this way, and he has sought to bring creation to fulfillment in Christ, not abolish it. Grace builds on nature, it does not eliminate it.
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Carmel_B
Guest
That is your right of course just as some people refuse to believe that the Earth is not Flat and your or their refusal to believe or otherwise is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Neuroimaging Differences in Spatial Cognition between Men and Male-to-Female Transsexuals Before and During Hormone Therapy by Scoening et al J Sex Med. 2009 Sep 14.
Conclusions. Our results confirmed previously reported deviances of brain activation patterns in transsexual MtoF from men without GID and also corroborated these findings in a group of transsexual patients receiving cross-sex hormone therapy. The present study indicates that there are a priori differences between men and transsexual patients caused by different neurobiological processes or task-solving strategies and that these differences remain stable over the course of hormonal treatment.
White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study. - Rametti et al, J Psychiatr Res. 2010 Jun 8.
CONCLUSIONS: Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals.
So is it your contention that those who believe that they are “Fox Spirits” will show a vulpine neurological anatomy and a brain with fox-like features if given an MRI scan? If not the situations are completely different according to objective tests and you are relying upon a refusal to believe without either scriptural or factual basis purely because of your own “feelings” about the issue a situation that could be accurately described as delusional.
Furthermore as the result of your own delusions you accuse others who suffer from a birth defect of not just being delusional but morally corrupt and exhibiting childish selfishness. There is a psychological syndrome called “projection” where the patient projects their iwn faults onto others and perhaps you are familiar with it. I think in all charity you should see a Christian psychologist and get a Priest’s advice on why you feel as you do. I will prey for you that you will be healed and realise that the Church and only the Church can say what the situation is here and as Catholics we should obey without question.
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Gregory_I
Guest
I CAN APPRECIATE YOUR REPLY.
But, just because something seems silly and simply like something people put too much thought into, doesn’t mean I am projecting my faults onto a mentality.
Now, I am aware of my faults, but I think they’re fairly universal ones; and judging by the way I have thought and felt, and acknowledging the inherent selfishness of most of my actions, I see that same kind of selfishness and narcissism in those who claim to be transgendered: really?
What makes the transgendered person so special, that they MUST be born in the wrong body.
Did God assign the soul he created from nothing into the wrong body?
YOu are as you should be from the moment of conception, until death.
At least as far as the inherent spiritual identity goes:
Plus, there is a fundamental flaw in the thinking here: THe soul was created for the body. THe soul is not supposed to exist apart from the body. DO die and become disembodied is an unnatural thing, because it is not what GOd intended.
THat being said, How do you explain transgendered and Hermaphroditism in the ressurection?
What if GOd gives a Man-to woman TG a MALE body?
What would you think of that?
But, just because something seems silly and simply like something people put too much thought into, doesn’t mean I am projecting my faults onto a mentality.
Now, I am aware of my faults, but I think they’re fairly universal ones; and judging by the way I have thought and felt, and acknowledging the inherent selfishness of most of my actions, I see that same kind of selfishness and narcissism in those who claim to be transgendered: really?
What makes the transgendered person so special, that they MUST be born in the wrong body.
Did God assign the soul he created from nothing into the wrong body?
YOu are as you should be from the moment of conception, until death.
At least as far as the inherent spiritual identity goes:
Plus, there is a fundamental flaw in the thinking here: THe soul was created for the body. THe soul is not supposed to exist apart from the body. DO die and become disembodied is an unnatural thing, because it is not what GOd intended.
THat being said, How do you explain transgendered and Hermaphroditism in the ressurection?
What if GOd gives a Man-to woman TG a MALE body?
What would you think of that?
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
11 Patients? Whats up with the people conducting this “science”? They looked at some MRI’s to see if they could find confirmation of previous research. Ever heard of confirmation bias? Of course they found what they were looking for.
Sweet, only 24 samples, equivalent controls here, surely that is statistical significant in a population of millions. I got a say, that’s just laughable. Notice they simply assume the control groups are heterosexuals? Self reporting is the least accurate way to control for those kind of variables where one may not wish to divulge the true manner of their sexual activity. Plus, to be honest, anywhere you can find 24 transsexuals, it seems reasonable too assume a larger proportion of homosexuals in the population. lol. the most telling piece of information is the way the wrote their conclusion. …
Ho
Furthermore as the result of your own delusions you accuse others who suffer from a birth defect of not just being delusional but morally corrupt and exhibiting childish selfishness. There is a psychological syndrome called “projection” where the patient projects their iwn faults onto others and perhaps you are familiar with it. I think in all charity you should see a Christian psychologist and get a Priest’s advice on why you feel as you do. I will prey for you that you will be healed and realise that the Church and only the Church can say what the situation is here and as Catholics we should obey without question.
w do they know its inherent? It seems like they assume it must be inborn. Did they conduct a longitudinal study across these peoples lifetimes? No? Then how can they claim that it is inherent? Looks like more confirmation bias to me. I have to say its a little disturbing to see you promote this kind of self serving “science” and then beat back any opposition using G-d and the Church as an object to quell dissent. The fact is that no matter what poorly conducted science is put forward, or argumentation is used. G-d clearly said that homosexual activity is forbidden. He didn’t say “unless a study shows…” or “if you all decide…” No, He was very clear.
What a polite way to intimate that he must be mentally ill for not agreeing with you. The usual tactic is to intimate that your opponent is a repressed homosexual and disagreeing with you as a matter of projection. I am so glad to see that you only called him mentally ill. That is so much more polite.
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Dale_M
Guest
I guess I have to echo PLeeD’s question as to whether this is Catholic teaching, or whether it is a personal belief. If it is Catholic teaching, could you provide a reference?
This seems perfectly sensible, and congruent with Church teaching. However it does not imply that God would give an intersex person a body as assigned to them by worldly authorities, rather than by personal identification. Which gets back to my earlier question: who, other than the individual in question, is in a position to know what is the proper sex for their body? To put the question off until the second coming of Christ really isn’t helpful for this life.
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mgreen77
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Scary. Reminds me of “Eugenics,” or whatever it was. Purging the race of all “impure” and imperfect (interex) people and so on.
What about gays? Will they be “remade” into heterosexuals?
Will transgender people be “remade” to identify with their birth sex?
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
Sure looks like its referencing all of humanity, why would that be the first place your thoughts go?
Since there is no rational reason to believe that people are “made” homosexuals any more than a pedophile is “made” a pedophile, or a person committing incest is “made” a person that commits incest, or a Necrophiliac" is “made” a necrophiliac, then I don’t suppose that “remade” is the right terminology. Unless you have some scientific evidence that proves people are born, homosexual, zoophile, pedophiliac, incestuous molesters, or necrophiliacs. What there isn’t any “science” being conducted to prove that necrophiliacs are born that way? How intolerant! We must instantly bend science to approve of any kind of sexual behavior that exists!
*Does anyone else think its a little strange to claim that homosexuals are born that way, but not pederasts, necrophiliacs, or zoophiles? BTW who do you think is the next candidate for a claim to being “born that way”? Check it out. (This isn’t obscene, but I don’t suggest that any children be allowed to read it.)sodahead.com/living/those-who-practice-bestiality-say-theyre-part-of-the-next-sexual-rights-movement/news-16503/(after reading that article I feel like I should burn my computer and take a bath in acid to get rid of the mental filth that oozed out of the screen, its that disgusting) Such a wonderful America our children are going to grow up in. A big thank you to all the people who decided to make up their own morality so they don’t have to feel guilty about their own sexual desires. As a man, let me say, it feels a lot more honest to admit that I liked premarital sex, than it feels to pretend I wasn’t doing anything immoral. Everyone should just own up to the kind of sex they like and then accept it simply doesn’t comport the mainstream Christian morals that we use in the rest off our culture. Whats the point in pretending that we aren’t all sinners?
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FMX500
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Of course, it’s man on man. That’s gay.
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Gregory_I
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No, homosexual means desiring a person of the same sex. If a merson with male dna desired another person with male dna, but the second person appeared as a woman, it is heterosexual, they are attracted to the woman.
As for th eeugenics issue:
Yes, gays lesbians transgendered and bisexual as well as those who are promiscuous are all sexually disordered, because they do not reflect the natural order.
If a homosexual man becomes a Christian, and dies as a chaste homosexual, In the ressurection, he will be raised up neither heterosexual, nor homosexual, but possesed of that the love which is perfectly ordered toward GOd and our neighbor.
In this life, sexual love is supposed to be an expression of GOd’s life-giving love.
In the world to come, Christ will be all in all ; so this klkind of relationship is superfluous and ontologically redundant.
Wanting to be gay or any other kind of sexual disorder in heaven, is like the little kid who would rather have chocolate than the lambroughini, since his greatest experience is of chocolate, even though the race car is incomparably greater in value.
See?
As for th eeugenics issue:
Yes, gays lesbians transgendered and bisexual as well as those who are promiscuous are all sexually disordered, because they do not reflect the natural order.
If a homosexual man becomes a Christian, and dies as a chaste homosexual, In the ressurection, he will be raised up neither heterosexual, nor homosexual, but possesed of that the love which is perfectly ordered toward GOd and our neighbor.
In this life, sexual love is supposed to be an expression of GOd’s life-giving love.
In the world to come, Christ will be all in all ; so this klkind of relationship is superfluous and ontologically redundant.
Wanting to be gay or any other kind of sexual disorder in heaven, is like the little kid who would rather have chocolate than the lambroughini, since his greatest experience is of chocolate, even though the race car is incomparably greater in value.
See?
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jmcrae
Guest
Nor are the surgeries that are presently available, since it is not actually possible to surgically alter a male to make him female; nor is it possible to actually alter a female and make her male. All that changes is the surface appearance. The “woman” cannot bear children - she can, however, still father them. Likewise, the “man” cannot father any children; however “he” can still become pregnant and bear them. (Witness the “man gives birth to baby” story that came out a couple of years ago - it was a woman who had changed her appearance to the male appearance, via transgender surgery.)
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mgreen77
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She has female genitals. How could she possibly “father” children?
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irishpatrick
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Wow—been a long time since I visited this thread.
It seems to me that gender must come down to DNA, how else would it be defined? The question is can DNA ever be altered to match a physical surgical change?
It seems to me that gender must come down to DNA, how else would it be defined? The question is can DNA ever be altered to match a physical surgical change?
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Dale_M
Guest
Perhaps, but DNA is more complicated than many people like to think. For example, intersex conditions may result from an unusual combination of sex chromosomes, or they sometimes result from epigenetic factors. Genes are not always expressed in the same way, individual to individual. And genetic differences do exist which may be important.
I think the scientific understanding of intersex conditions is very limited. The origin and formation of gender or sexual identity seems even more primitive. I’m not sure that accurate answers are easy to come by, and we may need decades more to learn.
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Theresa_Frances
Guest
The terminology used in labelling “transgender” issues contributes to a lot of the misunderstandings and misconceptions of the situation. Of late, I think “intersexed” is probably more accurate in an area where scientific understanding, as Dale M. mentions, is continually developing and not even as yet at an elementary level. However, to invidiuals facing this crisis it is present and real. Having experienced this directly I know it is not an area where absolutes apply. Even in the realm of ones personal religious beliefs. I am not a theologian or philosopher but in defining the soul and the realtion of soul, gender, biological sex, etc. I see so many explanations and disconnects I find myself more confused by the opinions expressed in this thread than I was growing up experiencing my physical anatomy divergent from my mental concept of my gender. Whatever was the causitive factor, it was there and was real. As far as I undersand it was probably related to my brain structure being female, although who is to know at this time. However, the medical professionals I consulted considered that to be the most likely cause and to amount to being an intersex condition since one bodily structure was female and the others not. I have expressed in other threads that I came to accept through therapy and prayer as well, what I first feared and considered condemnable to be an issue that could be addressed and in good conscience and resolved by medication and corrective surgery. While there is so much sensationalism surrounding the concept of individuals who transition to living in the gender opposite to their birth gender, some of us, possibly even most of us, intend to quietly assimilate into society as in my case a young woman and find fulfillment and happiness in life. My spiritual situation is improtant to me as well, but I don’t feel I have done something wrong. I guess that is yet to be known, but I just wanted to express that the situation is not an absolute right or wrong issue in my personal experience.
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FMX500
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He means (I think) that he (the man that now looks like a woman) can still be a parent but not give birth obviously since he has no womb.
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jmcrae
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“She” has not got female genitals. “She” has male genitals that have been reshaped to look like female genitals. They still emit sperm under the usual circumstances. Granted, “she” would need assistance to complete the act, but “she” could still father a child. “She” could never bear one, however.
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irishpatrick
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This does not appear to be correct. A male who undergoes such surgery no longer has the ability to create sperm since the testes are removed and the “remainder” is formed into the appearance of female genitalia (trying to be descreet here). So, such a person could not mother or father a child…could not become pregant and could not impregnant.
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