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jmcrae
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I don’t know how. I suppose you could remove the “Y” chromosome leaving only one “X”, but where would a second “X” come from? And how would you add in a “Y” chromosome that wasn’t already there to begin with?
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mgreen77
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True, nor can she “emit” anything as the other poster suggested. They generally function and respond as any female’s would or wouldn’t, except for the limitations of having no reproductive organs.
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irishpatrick
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Yes, that is my understanding of how it works. Whether it is moral or not is really the question t hand. Knowing how advances in medical techniques seem to quicken with each year, I am sure it will not be long before a visually convincing change can be made. Yet, again, the question is not “can we do X,” but rather “should we do x?”
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davidv
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Since the procreative functions have been artificially disabled, any sexual contact is immoral.
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Carmel_B
Guest
Yes most easily through bone marrow transplant though in some cases it is not needed as the apparently male at birth transsexual already has 46XX or 47XXY chromosomes.
Bone marrow transplant replaces the entire bloodstream’s DNA within weeks but it takes approximately seven years for the majority of the body’s cells to be replaced by stem cells generated by the donor tissue. As the stem cells are in the correct environment the sexual and other anatomy does not change just the DNA.
Bone marrow-derived cells from male donors can compose endometrial glands in female transplant recipients by Ikoma et al in Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2009 Dec;201(6):608.e1-8 :
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**RESULTS**: All recipients had donor-derived Y chromosome-positive endometrial cells, accounting for 0.6-8.4% of glandular epithelial cells and 8.2-9.8% of stromal cells. Most of the endometrial glands were chimeric, consisting of both donor-derived and recipient cells.
**CONCLUSION:** Donor-derived cells are capable of composing endometrium in recipients, even those of the opposite sex.Transplanted human bone marrow cells generate new brain cells by Crain BJ, Tran SD, Mezey E. in J Neurol Sci. 2005 Jun 15;233(1-2):121-3 :
The female patients in this study had received either bone marrow or stem cell (CD34+ enriched) transplants from their brothers. Double labeling for X- and Y-chromosomes showed that Y-labeled buccal cells could not be explained by fusion. Genotyping studies of one patient, her brother, and her son ruled out the possibility of microchimerism. Whether, and under what circumstances, some form of bone marrow transplantation might provide adequate number of cells capable of replacing lost brain cells or enhancing their function will require additional studies.
In other words the cells were entirely of the DNA of the male donor(s) and not some microhybrid or fusions with the recipients DNA they were genetically identical to the donor’s cells.
Similar effects are observable in 45X/46XX/46XY/47XXY mosaics as the 45X and 47XXY cells get selected against during cellular turnover and so a patient who is naturally mostly 45X with some 46XY will become more 46XY over time and a patient who is mostly 47XXY with some 46XX will become more 46XX over time. A 45X genotype results in a prepubescent female somatic form usually while a 47XXY genotype results in an anomalous male somatic form usually but there are always exceptions due to hormonal environment in the womb.
It is for this reason that we must rely solely upon what Holy Mother Church tells us is the case and not be misled by genital appearance at birth genital appearance later anatomy of the brain or indeed any biological reality. If the Church says that someone is male based on their chromosomes even though they have given birth to three children then they are male. If the Church says that someone is female based on the shape of their genitalia at birth even though they have fathered children then they are female. In both cases the sexual congress resulting in the production of children is inherently disordered and sinful as it is homosexual.
That this is the correct course of action ignoring mere observations of reality is proven by the Holy Father’s speech (while still cardinal) at La Spexia University on May 15 1990
Science is only concerned with Facts while the Church is concerned with Truth and Theology is the Queen of Sciences. We must never let scientific logic and data over-rule divinely inspired Reason which takes into account the social and ethical consequences of our conclusions.
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Carmel_B
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How do you know that a miracle could not restore those functions because that is what the Church believes when it allows sterile couples to wed. As long as the procreative act the insertion of penis into vagina is possible then the marriage is valid as long as the partners are of opposite sexes according to the Church. The normative sex act of physical copulation makes the marriage valid not any other consideration.
An exception is made only in the case of male-to-female transsexuals “marrying” female-to-male transsexuals even though copulation is possible.
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warpspeedpetey
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No amount of science, human reason, peer pressure or propaganda will make any sexual activity outside of legitimate married heterosexual intimacy, open to procreation, moral. It doesn’t matter how much any one tries. G-d has already taken sexual hedonists into account and destroyed them. Ever heard of birth control? The day that birth control became legal is the day western culture committed suicide. The birthrate in almost all industrialized countries is well below the replacement rate. The only populations growing faster than they are dying are the people who are remaining faithful to G-ds instructions concerning sexuality. G-d always wins.
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Theresa_Frances
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I think you are confusing the issue. Are you intimating that all persons who transition, for whatever reason, are sexual hedonists? If a person transitions due to an intersex condition which leads to their gender idendity issue, and becomes physically as well as mentally female, I don’t see where she cannot be involved in a heterosexual realtionship with a heterosexual male. I understand that there is no ability to conceive, but that condition also can exist in a natal female who is married. Much would come down to defining intersexed. There are Catholic women who have this condition, that support the Church’s position opposing artificial means of birth control and abortion.
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warpspeedpetey
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People with hermaphroditic conditions aren’t trans anything. They were always the sex they are. Removing any extraneous feature, or enhancing any less developed characteristics of the reproductive organs is a medical issue not a moral one. All this discussion about hermaphrodites seems to be little more than an attempt to excuse homosexual activities with hermaphroditic straw men.
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Carmel_B
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Answer me this then how would you regard this situation?All this discussion about hermaphrodites seems to be little more than an attempt to excuse homosexual activities with hermaphroditic straw men.
home.vicnet.net.au/%7Eaissg/2010_FamCA_237.pdf
What sex is this person are they transsexual if attracted to boys are they homosexual or heterosexual? This whole thread is not about homosexuality but gender identity issues and sex reassignment surgery and the philosophical implications thereof.
How do you define male and female because in order to determine if conduct is heterosexual or homosexual it is essential to know the sex of both involved as the very first step in the process.
There are problems defining sex on the basis of genitalia for example and also on the basis of chromosomes because neither is immutable both change due to natural as well as man-made causes whereas sex is and must be based on immutable characteristics objectively measurable and set at or before birth or upon the Church’s determination not solely based on factual circumstances.
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Dale_M
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And which sex would that be? Who decides which sex they are? Their doctor at birth? Their parents? Themselves? Someone else, sometime later? I think the issue is more complex than you have been willing to admit.
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warpspeedpetey
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Hermaphrodites are simply whatever sex they are. It doesn’t matter what I think they are. Check the Law of the excluded middle. What you are proposing violates the basic rules of logic. They aren’t trans anything. A transsexual tries to go from the sex they are to another sex. That’s a big difference.
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warpspeedpetey
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It seems very simple to me. They decide what sex they are. How could anyone else know? This thread is about transsexuals, it seems that a hermaphrodite cannot be a transsexual by definition.
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Theresa_Frances
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Again I think you are confusing the issue. Intersexed and hermaphroditism are two different conditions. Much thinking today considers many who would have at one time been labelled transgendered or transsexual as being intersexed, based on the assumption that their feelings of being the opposite gender than that determined by their outward physical characteristics. Gender and biological sex are two competely different things. A person who physically appeared male but after careful psychological evaluation and medical procedures transitons to living as a woman and is physcally attracted to men is expressing her heterosexual feelings. My understanding of a homosexual relationship is that individuals who are comfortable in their physical sex are attracted to people of the same sex. I don’t think you can lump, for lack of a better word, “transsexuals” into the same category as homosexual individuals.People with hermaphroditic conditions aren’t trans anything. They were always the sex they are. Removing any extraneous feature, or enhancing any less developed characteristics of the reproductive organs is a medical issue not a moral one. All this discussion about hermaphrodites seems to be little more than an attempt to excuse homosexual activities with hermaphroditic straw men.
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warpspeedpetey
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You’re barking up the wrong tree with me. I am as far right as it gets. All I care about is what G-d said.
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Blood_Angel
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A lot of transgenders are in a unique position, in the sex industry, because there isn’t that many of them, therefore, as pre-ops, they can satisfy a lot of mens needs. I think all of that is wrong, as such. The science is wrong.
But who knows, if it makes them happy.
But who knows, if it makes them happy.
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Carmel_B
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I didn’t ask a general question I asked a specific one in this particular case what is the sex of Sally? Or are you expressing the idea that they are of a third sex in contradiction to Genesis 1:26
As for Transsexuals we know that all the ones that have ever been tested have both male and female parts and have had since before before birth.
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Dale_M
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Of course, the Catholic Church is opposed to sex outside of marriage, as well as to prostitution (which is almost always exploitative.)
I suspect a high percentage of persons engaged in sex work would prefer to earn their income in other ways. But even assuming superficial, living in the moment happiness, this is not the same as philosophical happiness. True happiness is long lasting and involves expression and fulfillment of one’s nature…which gets us back to the Catholic Church’s teaching on the nature of man and woman and how the two differ. I don’t understand what the Church teaches as the Catechism offers little guidance. Individual Catholics seem to have personal theories about the nature of man and woman and the differences between the two, but I am not aware of any authoritative Church documents which explain the difference. Can someone offer suggestions?
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warpspeedpetey
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First of all don’t quote the Bible to me in support of homosexual activity.
Second a hermaphrodite is medical condition. Its almost as bad to take advantage of people born with physical deformities to push a homosexual agenda as it is to quote the Bible in support of one
. Third, that is not what I said that is a strawman you made up. So which is it, are you taking advantage of people born with physical deformities to push your political agenda, or are you trying to use the Bible to promote sin?..See, I can present false dilemmas as well. Respond to what I actually said, or don’t bother. I already know you don’t have the scientific support you claimed. And I have pointed out that it doesn’t matter in any case, because G-d quite clearly states that homosexual activity is a sin. There is no getting around it. Sexual activity is only licit in a heterosexual marriage, open to procreation. It does not matter how many people don’t like it or think its unfair. It doesn’t matter how many or what justifications one thinks they have. It is what it is and **G-d says no.**
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Carmel_B
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Please just answer that simple question what sex is that particular person. In order to determine whether they are guilty of the grave sin of homosexuality which is objectively disordered as all Catholics are called on to attest to we must know what sex someone is. It is my contention that only the theologians of the Church can determine this not science and not biological facts. You seem to think otherwise so I asked you a question.
You have responded with vicious libel implying that I am a homosexual apologist and I will pray that God forgives you for bearing false witness.
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