Peppering the Novus Ordo with Tridentine practices

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Greetings!

From time to time I visit a Catholic parish up the street for Sunday Mass and while the liturgies there are strictly O.F. I’ve come to notice that many of the older, traditional customs are being practiced during the liturgy by the laity. For example: the sign of the cross is executed not just at the beginning and end of Mass, but during the Penitential Rite, at the end of the Creed, and at the end of the Sanctus. Many of the parishioners also bow their head at the mention of the name of Jesus. Many strike their breast during the Confiteor and the Agnus Dei, and some are even genuflecting rather than bowing during the creed (while some do nothing at all), among other things.

To be sure that these aren’t just traditional Catholics who normally would prefer the E.F. but settle for the very reverently celebrated O.F. at this parish (which has a professional schola singing chant, plainsong, sacred polyphony, and renaissance motets), these individuals also perform many of the uniquely “O.F. innovations” such as using the orans posture during the Pater Noster and physically lifting up their hands when the priest says “Lift up your hearts”.

My question is, how prevalent is this sort of hybridization in Catholic parishes across the U.S. and how welcomed is it by the Church? Should the E.F. practices stay in the E.F. or is in fact the carrying over of them ideal?

The latter part of my question is inspired in part by a neighbor whom I took to this parish one Sunday. She was confused as to why the sign of the cross was being performed so frequently and what the purpose of all the “head-bobbing” was. She said she found the practices distracting and disruptive.

Thank you in advance for your responses.
 
adoremus.org/0210MassGesturesPostures.html
Bow and make the sign of the cross when the priest says “May Almighty God have mercy…”
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Throughout the Mass, bow your head at every mention of the name of Jesus and every time the Doxology “Glory be”] is spoken or sung. Also when asking the Lord to receive our prayer.
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Make the sign of the Cross at the conclusion of the Creed at the words “I believe in the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.”
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JM3 said:
adoremus.org/0210MassGesturesPostures.html
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Yes. I saw that document but noticed there are no citations, and comparing my 1962 missal to my contemporary one, the former of which shows in red lettering the sign of the cross and the striking of one’s breast while the latter does not leads me to believe that the good folks at Adoremus are simply advocating for what the folks at this parish are doing: carrying over the traditions from the E.F. to the O.F. I’m curious if there are any authoritative statements which concern this matter.
 
MacroConnectome said:
Greetings!

From time to time I visit a Catholic parish up the street for Sunday Mass and while the liturgies there are strictly O.F. I’ve come to notice that many of the older, traditional customs are being practiced during the liturgy by the laity. For example: the sign of the cross is executed not just at the beginning and end of Mass, but during the Penitential Rite, at the end of the Creed, and at the end of the Sanctus. Many of the parishioners also bow their head at the mention of the name of Jesus. Many strike their breast during the Confiteor and the Agnus Dei, and some are even genuflecting rather than bowing during the creed (while some do nothing at all), among other things.

To be sure that these aren’t just traditional Catholics who normally would prefer the E.F. but settle for the very reverently celebrated O.F. at this parish (which has a professional schola singing chant, plainsong, sacred polyphony, and renaissance motets), these individuals also perform many of the uniquely “O.F. innovations” such as using the orans posture during the Pater Noster and physically lifting up their hands when the priest says “Lift up your hearts”.

My question is, how prevalent is this sort of hybridization in Catholic parishes across the U.S. and how welcomed is it by the Church? Should the E.F. practices stay in the E.F. or is in fact the carrying over of them ideal?

The latter part of my question is inspired in part by a neighbor whom I took to this parish one Sunday. She was confused as to why the sign of the cross was being performed so frequently and what the purpose of all the “head-bobbing” was. She said she found the practices distracting and disruptive.

Thank you in advance for your responses.
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I don’t think any of these particular practices on the part of the laity have been suggested by the more doctrinal Council of Trent, but they do seem to follow Vatican II better, especially the chant part. I’ve seen very few bow their heads at the name of Jesus at the E.F.
 
MacroConnectome said:
My question is, how prevalent is this sort of hybridization in Catholic parishes across the U.S. and how welcomed is it by the Church? Should the E.F. practices stay in the E.F. or is in fact the carrying over of them ideal?
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It is going to happen. Whether it is ideal or not, depends on perspective. Whether the “Church” welcomes it or not depends on what part of the Church we’re talking about. Clearly, the people who make the sign of the cross at the words “the liffe everlasting” welcome it.

It is going to happen because the old practices were grounded in truth, and accorded with natural Catholic practice and piety. When people encounter them again in numbers, whether second or third hand, the practices will begin to return.
 
“General Instruction on the Roman Missal” said:
275. A bow signifies reverence and honor shown to the persons themselves or to the signs that represent them. There are two kinds of bows: a bow of the head and a bow of the body.

a. A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.
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As you can see, this bow of the head is already mandated in the OF.
 
I switch-hit on Mass forms. Two weekends a month EF and two weekends a month OF. It gets sort of confusing as far as postures go so I just do my EF stuff and don’t worry about anyone else.
 
The laity are not forbidden from crossing themselves when they choose. And as others have said, many of the things you mentioned are actually in the OF, just not always practiced. Many in my parish do as you mentioned, but I try very hard not to pay attention to what others around me are doing in Mass. I distract myself enough as it is! :o
 
JM3 said:
adoremus.org/0210MassGesturesPostures.html
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That document from Adoremus is not an official rubrical guide. It goes above and beyond what is called for by the GIRM. Here is my commentary on the postures and gestures that aren’t immediately obvious as officially part of the Mass.

Make the sign of the cross with holy water (a sign of baptism) upon entering the church. - Unofficial, but customary.

Genuflect toward the tabernacle… - One genuflects to the tabernacle (with the Eucharist in it) or else one bows to the altar. (GIRM 274)

Kneel upon entering the pew for private prayer before Mass begins. - If you want to.

Bow when the crucifix [or bishop] passes you in the procession. - Unofficial (unless it’s somewhere in the Ceremonial of Bishops) but custom.

Strike your breast at the “mea culpa(s)” in the Confiteor. - Official. (Rubric in the Roman Missal; not listed in the GIRM.)

Bow and make the sign of the cross when the priest says “May Almighty God have mercy…” - Unofficial; carrying over the gesture from the Extraordinary Form Missal (which had a second prayer here which is omitted in the Ordinary Form Missal, and which actually contained the rubric for the sign of the cross).

Bow your head when you say “Lord, have mercy” during the Kyrie. - Unofficial.

make the sign of the cross when the priest sprinkles water from the aspergillum in your direction. - Customary, but unofficial.

bow your head at every mention of the name of Jesus and …] when asking the Lord to receive our prayer. - The first is official (GIRM 275), the second is not.

When the priest announces the Gospel, trace a cross with the thumb on head, lips and heart. - Official. (GIRM 134)

Make the sign of the Cross at the conclusion of the Creed at the words “I believe in the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.” - Unofficial, carrying over the gesture from the Extraordinary Form Missal.

Stand as the priest says “Pray brethren that our sacrifice…” - Technically, the GIRM directs one to stand after the priest says this! (GIRM 146)

If incense is used, the congregation bows toward the thurifer when he bows to the congregation both before and after he has incensed them. - Customary, probably official (in the Ceremonial of Bishops, I suspect).

The congregation …] kneel for the entire Eucharistic Prayer. - In the US, yes; but the universal norm is that one kneels only from the Epiclesis through the Consecration.

At the moment of the Consecration of each element, bow the head and say silently… - A pious custom, but unofficial.

Reverently fold your hands and bow your head as you pray the Lord’s Prayer. - Unofficial.

In reciting (or singing) the Agnus Dei (“Lamb of God…”), strike the breast at the words “Have mercy upon us”. - Unofficial, carried over from the EF Missal.

Kneel at the end of the Agnus Dei (“Lamb of God…”). - In certain dioceses of the US where the bishop has not decided otherwise.

Bow your head and strike your breast as you say, Domine non sum dignus… (Lord, I am not worthy…) - Unofficial, carried over from the EF Missal.

walk reverently toward the altar, with hands folded in prayer. - Unofficial.

Make a gesture of reverence as you approach the priest in procession to receive Communion. If you are kneeling at the Communion rail, no additional gesture is made before receiving. - Official. (GIRM 160; Inaestimabile Donum 11)

Make the sign of the cross after you have received Communion. - Unofficial.

Make the sign of the cross at the final blessing. - John Lilburne is quick to point out that the congregation is not instructed to do this in the rubrics! (One should, however, bow profoundly at the invocation of the Trinity, cf. GIRM 275.)

If there is a hymn for the recessional, remain standing in your pew until it concludes. - Unofficial, but good manners!

Make the sign of the cross with holy water as you leave the church, a reminder of our baptismal obligation to carry Christ’s Gospel into the world. - Unofficial, but customary.
 
We do all the things you mentioned at our Mass, or at least our priest does, and many of the rest of us have learned to follow suit.
 
Will_S said:
Striking the breast during the confiteor has always been a part of the OF Mass. Not that I’ve seen anyone (besides a few priests) do it in America.
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I just got the missal for 2012, striking the breast is noted in that. Bit by bit we are going to get it right. 👍
 
ProVobis said:
I don’t think any of these particular practices on the part of the laity have been suggested by the more doctrinal Council of Trent, but they do seem to follow Vatican II better, especially the chant part. I’ve seen very few bow their heads at the name of Jesus at the E.F.
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Quite true. Some like to suggest that every “reverent gesture” is a product of the EF and that just isn’t so.
 
Joe_Kelley said:
I just got the missal for 2012, striking the breast is noted in that. Bit by bit we are going to get it right. 👍
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This never went away. It’s been part of the rubrics of the OF since its inception. Not all Catholics know that, however.
 
japhy said:
That document from Adoremus is not an official rubrical guide.
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Must every act of reverence be mandated? The guide, as you say, is not ‘official’, but that does not mean it is not to be followed. I wonder what you would do in, say, 39 A.D., when nothing was written.

Is love that is not expressed outwardly truely love? :hmmm:
 
MacroConnectome said:
Greetings!

From time to time I visit a Catholic parish up the street for Sunday Mass and while the liturgies there are strictly O.F. I’ve come to notice that many of the older, traditional customs are being practiced during the liturgy by the laity. For example: the sign of the cross is executed not just at the beginning and end of Mass, but during the Penitential Rite, at the end of the Creed, and at the end of the Sanctus. Many of the parishioners also bow their head at the mention of the name of Jesus. Many strike their breast during the Confiteor and the Agnus Dei, and some are even genuflecting rather than bowing during the creed (while some do nothing at all), among other things.

To be sure that these aren’t just traditional Catholics who normally would prefer the E.F. but settle for the very reverently celebrated O.F. at this parish (which has a professional schola singing chant, plainsong, sacred polyphony, and renaissance motets), these individuals also perform many of the uniquely “O.F. innovations” such as using the orans posture during the Pater Noster and physically lifting up their hands when the priest says “Lift up your hearts”.

My question is, how prevalent is this sort of hybridization in Catholic parishes across the U.S. and how welcomed is it by the Church? Should the E.F. practices stay in the E.F. or is in fact the carrying over of them ideal?

The latter part of my question is inspired in part by a neighbor whom I took to this parish one Sunday. She was confused as to why the sign of the cross was being performed so frequently and what the purpose of all the “head-bobbing” was. She said she found the practices distracting and disruptive.

Thank you in advance for your responses.
Click to expand...
did it ever accur to you that maybe there needs to be an attitudee shift here?

it shouldnt be about “copying” things from the TLM; it should be about maintaining our sacred tradition

just because there was a new missal doesnt mean that all signs of reverence need to stop.

There should be contunity between the NO and TLM
 
FatHead said:
did it ever accur to you that maybe there needs to be an attitudee shift here?

it shouldnt be about “copying” things from the TLM; it should be about maintaining our sacred tradition

just because there was a new missal doesnt mean that all signs of reverence need to stop.
*
There should be contunity between the NO and TLM*
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Yes, but most people don’t, or refuse to, see this.
 
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