Peppering the Novus Ordo with Tridentine practices

[japhy]

Must every act of reverence be mandated? The guide, as you say, is not ‘official’, but that does not mean it is not to be followed.

I didn’t say the guide is not to be followed. But the guide needn’t be followed. You don’t have to, for example, make the sign of the cross at the end of the Penitential Act just because the Adoremus Bulletin recommends it. You could do something else. Or you could do nothing out of the ordinary at all.

My concern is that people will interpret AB’s list of postures and gestures at Mass as a normative or mandated list, and then begin to question the reverence, orthodoxy, respect, etc., of those who don’t use these postures and gestures.

I wonder what you would do in, say, 39 A.D., when nothing was written.

I’d be doing what the Apostles did, most likely.

Is love that is not expressed outwardly truely love?

That’s a fine question, but who is to say that love must be outwardly expressed in this way at this moment in the liturgy, when the Church does not require it? What if I choose to show love for God’s mercy during the Penitential Act by simply standing there, praying the words meaningfully, and listening to the priest’s conclusion attentively and believing the words prayed by both of us?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Most commonly from those who prefer the EF.

I don’t think people who prefer the EF are jealous that the OF takes parts of “their mass.”

 

[FatHead]

Most commonly from those who prefer the EF.

i think the 1 biggest reason people preffer the ef is because all the of masses around are celebrated so terribly

if i didnt have my parish where i am now i would be an ef only person too

 

[FatHead]

in general when the no is unclear, i follow the tlm rubrics for the servers/people

and no i dont make the sign of the cross after the absolution during mass because in the tlm it is actually during a different prayer not the one we pray in the nO

 

[Joe_Kelley]

i think the 1 biggest reason people preffer the ef is because all the of masses around are celebrated so terribly

if i didnt have my parish where i am now i would be an ef only person too

Unfortunately, there are few of us left who remember how terribly the EF was celebrated in the late 50’s and early 60’s.

 

[ProVobis]

Unfortunately, there are few of us left who remember how terribly the EF was celebrated in the late 50’s and early 60’s.

Opinion. But can you provide an example? Anything in particular?

 

[JM3]

I didn’t say the guide is not to be followed. But the guide needn’t be followed.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

My concern is that people will interpret AB’s list of postures and gestures at Mass as a normative or mandated list, and then begin to question the reverence, orthodoxy, respect, etc., of those who don’t use these postures and gestures.

Is assuming a subjective judgement a subjective judgement?

who is to say that love must be outwardly expressed in this way at this moment in the liturgy, when the Church does not require it? What if I choose to show love for God’s mercy during the Penitential Act by simply standing there, praying the words meaningfully, and listening to the priest’s conclusion attentively and believing the words prayed by both of us?

Revelation 20:12

And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.

Your actions show what is in your heart.

Everyone has different levels of spirituality and understanding of reverence. Instead of saying that someone doesn’t need to do something because it is not required, maybe it would be better to encourage a deeper reverence that would deepen spirituality.

 

[JM3]

Opinion. But can you provide an example? Anything in particular?

Council of Trent and Vatican II.

If everything is done the way it is supposed to be done, there would be no need for reform.

 

[Rudolfo]

Unfortunately, there are few of us left who remember how terribly the EF was celebrated in the late 50’s and early 60’s.

After Summorum Pontificum I asked my Mom if she would like to go to an EF Mass, as she is fortunate enough to live near a parish that has them. Her immediate reaction was astonishment that I would want to go. “That old Mass? Oh no! That Latin! Why are they bringing that back? It was boring then and I’m sure it’s boring now.” A very virulent reaction from a devout Catholic who tolerates terrible “progressive” NO masses every Sunday.

I tried again a few years later and now she was curious to go, but declared, “No way am I wearing a veil on my head. That is just silly.”

Finally we went to a simple low mass. Something happened. The old “magic” came back or it was nostalgia or just the reverence and quiet, but my Mom thoroughly enjoyed the EF Mass. Maybe her bad memories from pre-Vatican II were due to sloppy Masses then?

 

[Chatter163]

After Summorum Pontificum I asked my Mom if she would like to go to an EF Mass, as she is fortunate enough to live near a parish that has them. Her immediate reaction was astonishment that I would want to go. “That old Mass? Oh no! That Latin! Why are they bringing that back? It was boring then and I’m sure it’s boring now.” A very virulent reaction from a devout Catholic who tolerates terrible “progressive” NO masses every Sunday.

I tried again a few years later and now she was curious to go, but declared, “No way am I wearing a veil on my head. That is just silly.”

Finally we went to a simple low mass. Something happened. The old “magic” came back or it was nostalgia or just the reverence and quiet, but my Mom thoroughly enjoyed the EF Mass. Maybe her bad memories from pre-Vatican II were due to sloppy Masses then?

This is a common reaction by those of a certain generation, i.e., those who grew up with the Latin Mass, but then as fairly young adults saw it discarded. They had been raised to be obedient Catholics, and they had been told that the Church no longer wanted Latin Masses. After all, Father told them so, and in most cases, the bishop did, too, so in their minds this was what the Church had decreed. That, and the passage of decades of time, convinced them that the old rite was of no practical use.
:sad_yes:

 

[ElToro]

i think the 1 biggest reason people preffer the ef is because all the of masses around are celebrated so terribly

if i didnt have my parish where i am now i would be an ef only person too

Most don’t prefer the EF. Not even close to 1 in 200 Catholics.

 

[ElToro]

Opinion. But can you provide an example? Anything in particular?

adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html#anchor15043652

 

[ElToro]

It’s laughable to even consider if today’s OF was the old Mass and it was being replaced by today’s EF. Just imagine what people would think if:

You needed a manual (missalette) to even follow the Mass due to the dead, foreign language.

A Bible reading from Sunday’s Mass was being removed.

You stopped responding and instead the altar server responded for you.

That someone felt there needed to be not one Mass but a low Mass, a sung low Mass, a high Mass and a Pontifical High Mass.

Had that actually happened when the OF was introduced, the number lost would have been 10x what is actually was…

 

[CB_Catholic]

This is a common reaction by those of a certain generation, i.e., those who grew up with the Latin Mass, but then as fairly young adults saw it discarded. They had been raised to be obedient Catholics, and they had been told that the Church no longer wanted Latin Masses. After all, Father told them so, and in most cases, the bishop did, too, so in their minds this was what the Church had decreed. That, and the passage of decades of time, convinced them that the old rite was of no practical use.
:sad_yes:

I think this is a rather generalized statement that probably is not true in most cases. I am of the era of which you speak, as is my still-living Mother and her friends. I have no objection to the EF, but I prefer the OF for various reasons. My mother feels the same way–she has no desire to return to the EF. People have so romanticized the pre VII Church that they forget there was a real need for reform, and most of this is coming from people who weren’t even alive then.

 

[ProVobis]

adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html#anchor15043652

Masses at our parish were held every hour on the hour on Sunday mornings. 70% of Catholics attended Mass and most walked to church. Latin and English grammar were taught at Catholic and public schools. Except for the 6am nun’s Mass, most Masses were balcony-filled and standing-room only. Yet quiet so you could hear some of the priest’s prayers WITHOUT MICROPHONES and LOUDSPEAKERS. Weekday Masses were on the half-hour and there were frequent Masses at the side altars in addition. There were long-lines at confessions and a 3-hr fast before communion. Oh yes, no meat on Fridays and people took Holydays of Obligations seriously.

So where are these “Tridentine” practices today at ANY Mass, OF or EF?

 

[Tsuwano]

Greetings!

From time to time I visit a Catholic parish up the street for Sunday Mass and while the liturgies there are strictly O.F. I’ve come to notice that many of the older, traditional customs are being practiced during the liturgy by the laity. For example: the sign of the cross is executed not just at the beginning and end of Mass, but during the Penitential Rite, at the end of the Creed, and at the end of the Sanctus. Many of the parishioners also bow their head at the mention of the name of Jesus. Many strike their breast during the Confiteor and the Agnus Dei, and some are even genuflecting rather than bowing during the creed (while some do nothing at all), among other things.

To be sure that these aren’t just traditional Catholics who normally would prefer the E.F. but settle for the very reverently celebrated O.F. at this parish (which has a professional schola singing chant, plainsong, sacred polyphony, and renaissance motets), these individuals also perform many of the uniquely “O.F. innovations” such as using the orans posture during the Pater Noster and physically lifting up their hands when the priest says “Lift up your hearts”.

My question is, how prevalent is this sort of hybridization in Catholic parishes across the U.S. and how welcomed is it by the Church? Should the E.F. practices stay in the E.F. or is in fact the carrying over of them ideal?

The latter part of my question is inspired in part by a neighbor whom I took to this parish one Sunday. She was confused as to why the sign of the cross was being performed so frequently and what the purpose of all the “head-bobbing” was. She said she found the practices distracting and disruptive.

Thank you in advance for your responses.

There is no hybridization going on when these gestures and practices are used in the ordinary form of the liturgy. They have always been a part of the liturgy I’ve known.

 

[centurionguard]

Masses at our parish were held every hour on the hour on Sunday mornings. 70% attended Mass and most walked to church. Latin was taught at Catholic and public schools. Except for the 6am nun’s Mass, most Masses were balcony-filled and standing-room only. Yet quiet so you could hear some of the priest’s prayers WITHOUT MICROPHONES and LOUDSPEAKERS. Weekday Masses were on the half-hour and there were frequent Masses at the side altars in addition. There were long-lines at confessions and a 3-hr fast before communion. Oh yes, no meat on Fridays and people took Holydays of Obligations seriously.

So where are these “Tridentine” practices today at ANY Mass, OF or EF?

I remember such taking place and it wasn’t necessarily only at a TLM.

Sadly though various aspects of this started to wind down to a non-existent dribble by the mid 1970’s in the existing Novus Ordo Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

People have so romanticized the pre VII Church that they forget there was a real need for reform, and most of this is coming from people who weren’t even alive then.

Same could be said for the 15th-16th century Reformation and Council of Trent period too, no?

 

[ProVobis]

Had that actually happened when the OF was introduced, the number lost would have been 10x what is actually was…

Have you checked the attendance figures in countries such as France lately?

 

[ElToro]

I think this is a rather generalized statement that probably is not true in most cases. I am of the era of which you speak, as is my still-living Mother and her friends. I have no objection to the EF, but I prefer the OF for various reasons. My mother feels the same way–she has no desire to return to the EF. People have so romanticized the pre VII Church that they forget there was a real need for reform, and most of this is coming from people who weren’t even alive then.

I think some romanticize the post WWII Church to about 1965 Church in the USA as some sort of gold standard. “When everything was good.”