Peppering the Novus Ordo with Tridentine practices

[ElToro]

Have you checked the attendance figures in countries such as France lately?

Have you ever considered the churches would have been altogether closed and sold/bulldozed had change not taken place?

 

[YoungTradCath]

It’s laughable to even consider if today’s OF was the old Mass and it was being replaced by today’s EF. Just imagine what people would think if:

You needed a manual (missalette) to even follow the Mass due to the dead, foreign language.

A Bible reading from Sunday’s Mass was being removed.

You stopped responding and instead the altar server responded for you.

That someone felt there needed to be not one Mass but a low Mass, a sung low Mass, a high Mass and a Pontifical High Mass.

Had that actually happened when the OF was introduced, the number lost would have been 10x what is actually was…

This doesn’t even make any sense, as it was already the norm.

 

[ElToro]

Masses at our parish were held every hour on the hour on Sunday mornings. 70% of Catholics attended Mass and most walked to church. Latin and English grammar were taught at Catholic and public schools. Except for the 6am nun’s Mass, most Masses were balcony-filled and standing-room only. Yet quiet so you could hear some of the priest’s prayers WITHOUT MICROPHONES and LOUDSPEAKERS. Weekday Masses were on the half-hour and there were frequent Masses at the side altars in addition. There were long-lines at confessions and a 3-hr fast before communion. Oh yes, no meat on Fridays and people took Holydays of Obligations seriously.

So where are these “Tridentine” practices today at ANY Mass, OF or EF?

Those aren’t exclusively “tridentine practices.”

 

[ElToro]

This doesn’t even make any sense, as it was already the norm.

Read it again.

 

[ProVobis]

Have you ever considered the churches would have been altogether closed and sold/bulldozed had change not taken place?

I hear many of the churches in Europe have already been sold to the Muslims. Are you going to counter by saying “All of them would have been sold had a change not taken place.”?

 

[ProVobis]

I think some romanticize the post WWII Church to about 1965 Church in the USA as some sort of gold standard. “When everything was good.”

The gold standard wasn’t dropped until 1971 so give or take a few years.

 

[FatHead]

It’s laughable to even consider if today’s OF was the old Mass and it was being replaced by today’s EF. Just imagine what people would think if:

You needed a manual (missalette) to even follow the Mass due to the dead, foreign language.

A Bible reading from Sunday’s Mass was being removed.

You stopped responding and instead the altar server responded for you.

That someone felt there needed to be not one Mass but a low Mass, a sung low Mass, a high Mass and a Pontifical High Mass.

Had that actually happened when the OF was introduced, the number lost would have been 10x what is actually was…

you sure seem to hate the ef

btw there was still one mass

 

[Vico]

That document from Adoremus is not an official rubrical guide. It goes above and beyond what is called for by the GIRM. Here is my commentary on the postures and gestures that aren’t immediately obvious as officially part of the Mass.

…

bow your head at every mention of the name of Jesus and …] when asking the Lord to receive our prayer. - The first is official (GIRM 275), the second is not.

…

(One should, however, bow profoundly at the invocation of the Trinity, cf. GIRM 275.)

…

That was a great post you made on the GIRM vs the recommended gestures. I note that GIRM 275 specifies a bow of the head is made many times (and I did not know of them all). That is quite frequent as there are many such names: Our Lord, Jesus, Christ, Son of God, Lamb of God, Word. (I suppose that when many forms are in one sentence it would be more elegant to bow the head only once.)

• the three Divine Persons are named together and
• at the names of Jesus, of
• the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of
• the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.

And a bow of the body, a profound bow, made to the altar by all, in the Creed at the words et incarnatus est (and by the Holy Spirit . . . and became man).

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

To call it the “Novus Ordo” is insulting to the great dignity and ancient character of the restored Roman Missal of Ven. Paul VI.

Please keep that in mind for the future…

 

[pnewton]

Have you checked the attendance figures in countries such as France lately?

I just checked the figures for Nigeria. They are blossoming. Also, the question would need to be asked if from 1900-1970, was France growing, or declining. I will try and find this.

 

[Elizium23]

That was a great post you made on the GIRM vs the recommended gestures. I note that GIRM 275 specifies a bow of the head is made many times (and I did not know of them all). That is quite frequent as there are many such names: Our Lord, Jesus, Christ, Son of God, Lamb of God, Word. (I suppose that when many forms are in one sentence it would be more elegant to bow the head only once.)

• the three Divine Persons are named together and
• at the names of Jesus, of
• the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of
• the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.

No, there is only one name where we bow: Jesus. “names” is referring collectively to Jesus, Mary and the saint. The other terms you mention are epithets or titles for Jesus, not names.

 

[ProVobis]

I just checked the figures for Nigeria. They are blossoming. Also, the question would need to be asked if from 1900-1970, was France growing, or declining. I will try and find this.

My guess is that the decline in Europe started after the end of WWII, although in some countries it might have stabilized or even climbed until 1960 or so. The “peak” in the U.S. was around 1964, when the decline began. Poland was a different story as it was occupied during the first world war and reoccupied during the second world war. Till this day it seemes like Catholicism was/is the major force in keeping the country together. And as you note, there has been an increase in Africa; also in the Far East. I’m not sure, however, if the devotion to the rosary or such matters is on the increase there. Cardinal Arinze did make mention that the devotions in Africa are a little more on the “graceful movement” style, or what we would call “liturgical dancing” here in the states.

 

[Vico]

No, there is only one name where we bow: Jesus. “names” is referring collectively to Jesus, Mary and the saint. The other terms you mention are epithets or titles for Jesus, not names.

Thank you, that is good to know.

 

[FatHead]

To call it the “Novus Ordo” is insulting to the great dignity and ancient character of the restored Roman Missal of Ven. Paul VI.

Please keep that in mind for the future…

c’mon… seriously

Its not an insult you people need to get over it

 

[ElToro]

To call it the “Novus Ordo” is insulting to the great dignity and ancient character of the restored Roman Missal of Ven. Paul VI.

Please keep that in mind for the future…

Please keep in mind that it’s now clear that some use that moniker as a means to be offensive and to denigrate the OF Mass. Some of the excuses I have read on these forums for its use simply don’t pass the smell test. On the positive side those that use the invective are telegraphing their prejudice for everyone to see…

 

[ElToro]

c’mon… seriously

Its not an insult you people need to get over it

Actually it is an insult. That’s OK though you’re clearly not going to change – just know how you are viewed by a growing number every time you use the invective AND THEN try to justify its use.

 

[irenaeus2]

I find it sad that so many in this thread say that they really try not to pay attention to those around them. Isn’t one of the purposes of Mass to become one body? I think it is important to “fit in” to the congregation where you are worshiping. Once I was at Mass in Belfast, Northern Ireland and I stood for the part in the Preparation of the Gifts where the people recite “May the Lord accept this sacrifice at your hands…” I quickly realized that I was the only one standing, so I sat down. Was I supposed to remain standing and be a total distraction to everyone else in the church? I don’t think so. It is a humbling thing to “do as others do.” We are called to this humility when we go to Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

Actually it is an insult. That’s OK though you’re clearly not going to change – just know how you are viewed by a growing number every time you use the invective AND THEN try to justify its use.

I changed the title for you.

 

[Phemie]

I find it sad that so many in this thread say that they really try not to pay attention to those around them. Isn’t one of the purposes of Mass to become one body? I think it is important to “fit in” to the congregation where you are worshiping. Once I was at Mass in Belfast, Northern Ireland and I stood for the part in the Preparation of the Gifts where the people recite “May the Lord accept this sacrifice at your hands…” I quickly realized that I was the only one standing, so I sat down. Was I supposed to remain standing and be a total distraction to everyone else in the church? I don’t think so. It is a humbling thing to “do as others do.” We are called to this humility when we go to Mass.

You did the right thing. In countries where the new GIRM hasn’t been implemented, people are still sitting until AFTER that response. Canada has not implemented the new GIRM so our postures have differed from those in the US since around 2004. Some parishes, if the bishops heed the CCCB, will be starting to use the new postures after Sept. 25.

 

[Phemie]

Actually it is an insult. That’s OK though you’re clearly not going to change – just know how you are viewed by a growing number every time you use the invective AND THEN try to justify its use.

Tell that to priests who would no more celebrate the EF than I would fly to the moon but use the term regularly to refer to the OF. Sometimes you infer something that the speaker has never implied.