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JamesCaruso
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But talking about both does provide a helpful and informed perspective.
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aux1
Guest
And this is relevant how?
Let me remind you that the Catholic Church teaches that a priest celebrating Mass acts in persona Christi. As per CCC:
*1549 Through the ordained ministry, especially that of bishops and priests, the presence of Christ as head of the Church is made visible in the midst of the community of believers. In the beautiful expression of St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop is typos tou Patros: he is like the living image of God the Father.
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Thus, in the Catholic Church, the priest celebrating Mass does not merely represent Christ, he, at some level, is Christ. Regardless of disclaimers in CCC 1550, having a sexual offender acting in persona Christi results in a quite nasty dissonance (to put it very mildly).
Now, to your strawman. Does a boy scout team leader act in persona Dei? Of course not. Does a football coach act in persona Dei? Sure not, in fact, the whole notion of a football coach representing anyone besides his employer is completely ridiculous. In fact, even arguing that the coach acts as a representative of the president of the university is dubious. A coach is a hired employee which can be fired on the spot, while priestly ordination supposedly confers a spiritual gift (CCC 1565).
And it gets worse. What is the most holy thing a Catholic encounters? A consecrated host. Remember that, according to some bishops, a laity in good standing is unworthy to be given consecrated hosts into hand. Yet, a bishop knowningly shielding an abuser is an effect authorizing him to consecrate hosts, and handle consecrated hosts. Divorced laity? No communion for you, sorry. Child abuser priest? Not a problem, apparently.
And we’re not even touching a bigger problem, i.e. preaching. Should I listed to Bill Clinton on the issues of sexual morality? What moral mandate does a sexual abuser have to preach to others about what they can or cannot do with their wives? 1 Timothy 3, did anyone in the Church read that epistle?
Bishops disclaiming responsibility for their own clergy? Supposedly unaware? Supposedly unable to act? Are they forgetting that the authority of priests comes from them directly (CCC 1562), that a priest cannot function without his bishop (CCC 1567)?
Luke 17:2? No, no, no, we must show compassion to our brothers…
Shielding abusers is not a sin, it’s a denial of core tenets of Catholicism.
That is the difference between abuse in Catholic Church and elsewhere.
That is what deconverted countless Catholics to atheism.
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JimG
Guest
Sexual abuse by priests was deplorable. But to put it in context, it helps to note that the vast majority of cases happened from the mid 1960’s to the mid 1980’s. 94% of all cases occurred before 1990. 70% of clergy offenders were ordained before 1970.
See this article from Psychology Today.
And note the graph on page 8 of the John Jay report showing that the rise and decline of the abuse crisis. (page 16 of this pdf document)
Also, priests are not assigned randomly to parishes throughout the nation. They are sent by particular dioceses for ordination to particular dioceses. Some dioceses had better candidates than others, and some seminaries were better than others.
See this article from Psychology Today.
And note the graph on page 8 of the John Jay report showing that the rise and decline of the abuse crisis. (page 16 of this pdf document)
Also, priests are not assigned randomly to parishes throughout the nation. They are sent by particular dioceses for ordination to particular dioceses. Some dioceses had better candidates than others, and some seminaries were better than others.
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RobbyS
Guest
Be that as it may, the Church has paid huge amounts of money to claimants of sexual abuse. I know part of the problem is our legal system with its overabundance of lawyers and its tort system which encourages sharks. BTAIM, the bishops have failed to put forward a creditable defense, and furthermore, they seem to be reluctant to acknowledge the problem of homosexuality in the priesthood. I say homosexuality, but one can extend this to the sexual naivety of many “straight” priests and nuns.
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Seeker1961
Guest
:clapping::clapping::clapping:
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SonSearcher
Guest
These are good points. I thank you so very much.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
The priest, despite his consecration, his higher calling, is human. Ordination does not create a super human, anymore than one’s Confirmation creates a super human. We receive special graces, true, but we soon find out that we are still able to sin with little effort. The special graces we receive are usually not discernible to any appreciable degree, and what would have been without Confirmation, is impossible for us to say. Both the sinning priest and the sinning coach are guilty of heinous crimes. The priest’s is obviously more scandalous, and he sins against more than just his humanity and his God, he sins against his church and his sacred vow. But, in the final analysis, he is still only human, a human with a grave responsibility and a sacred trust.
Divorce is an ongoing sin. My Aunt suffered not receiving communion for many years until her husband, a divorced man, died. She never missed Mass and she lived long after his death, happy at last that she could receive Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist. She did not curse the Church; she loved the Church. She knew she had done wrong, and she trusted God that He would work it out as she raised seven children; He did. She died at the age of 95 after living a very holy life.
Child abuse can be ongoing or limited. It is forgivable in each instance. At one time professionals felt it was treatable. Had the Church realized the degree to which it was untreatable, it’s early approach would have been different. I’m not speaking of any case where a superior was also guilty and concealed sin that he was a party to.
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Timothy spells out that priests and bishops must be held to the highest standard, but if you read it carefully, it is the same standard that we are all held to by our confession of Christ. All of us are expected to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behavior, chaste, given to hospitality, not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous. And all of us fall short. We are a church of sinners trying to become saints. We can only hope that the more successful of us are the ones that find their way into the priesthood, but we know that that is not always going to be the case.
When shielding abusers was based on the best advice of professionals who said that child abusers could be cured by treatment it was not a denial of core tenets of Catholicism. When superiors judged a person had slipped, was repentant, and was back on the right track, it was not a denial of core tenets. What happened was a mixed bag of ignorance and culpability by individuals within the Church. We have seen the Church at large make the appropriate corrections.
Catholics were never converted in the first place if their faith was based on the example of priest and bishops. I would still follow Christ and His Catholic Church, which alone has the promise of God to preserve its teaching and doctrine from error, which has the Holy Eucharist which is necessary for eternal life, and which has the sacrament of Reconciliation for forgiveness of sins, if every priest and bishop in the Church was a child abuser.
Do you follow men or do you follow Christ and His Church? The Church is a human organization. It will always have human failings so long as it is populated by human beings. Reform is a recurrent theme in the Church, in the life of every Christian, and for that matter, in the world. If a person leaves the Church because of sinful priests, they were there for the wrong reasons. It is sad that they were chased off before they had real faith. A Catholic with faith cannot leave the Holy Eucharist because a priest sins. That would make no sense.
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RobbyS
Guest
You mean the Judas Priests?
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MarkInOregon
Guest
Do you feel animosity toward schools? Toward Boy Scouts? Toward other denominations? Toward families? Toward soceity? And the list could go on. Child abuse has been covered up and enabled EVERWHERE. This does not excuse Church leaders who should have known and done better–especially in the case of those priests who were accused multiple times–where it became impossible to believe that the activity was not engaged in. But given the fact is abuse goes on in many places–mostly in families–where it is hidden and enabled–where is the hatred of parents that is heaped on the bishops? School adminstrations actually have a name for shipping teachers to other districts–it is called “passing the trash”–where is the hatred for teachers, principals and adminstrators who knowling let abusers take jobs in other districts?
None of this is said to justify or minimize what occurred in the Church but is rather to point out the rather obvious double standard that seems to exist. The truth is abuse exists and will continue to exist. All we can do is try to make sure processes are in place to try to prevent it to the best of our ability and figuring out the “true” number of bishops who let us down on that is not going assist in that mission.
I’d like to see all these people who are so concerned with the welfare of children and with their protection–attacking or fighting it everywhere it occurs and not just in the Catholic Church. I think it is telling where they attack and it suggests an agenda that has nothing to do with protecting children. Eventually there will be nothing left to attack in the Church–the uncovering has occured and the processes in place. That is why you are starting to see the Boy Scouts attacked and sued. Is it really about the children or is it about the Boy Scouts positions on God an homosexuality? Call me a cynic. I’d like to give most of these people the benefit of the doubt but as time goes on and other abuse stories are downplayed or ignored it becomes harder to do so.
Peace,
Mark
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SonSearcher
Guest
Two days ago I completely agreed with you. In fact over the past few days I have argued almost to a t…what you just said.
But last night in prayer something came to me… we should be setting the example.
The world should set us on a higher pedestal.It isn’t a “double standard”…it is an appropriate standard. They should expect more from us, we should expect better ourselves. Regardless of our “human sinfulness” we should be sharing with the world the message and example of Christ as “little Christs” (christians) ourselves.
When approached with this we shouldn’t become defensive, we should admit the fault…not spread the blame of this scourge of abuse to the similar problems in other institutions… that is not sustainable and there is a good reason for that. It is wrong.
We are the Catholic Church…we are Christ’s Church. He founded it. Have we messed up in the past? Heck yeah. Lets seek forgiveness and lets move on. I am willing to do this even though I had nothing to do with it…why? Because we are the mystical body of Christ we take on one another’s suffering on purpose. I don’t care who spilled the milk lets clean it up!
The world needs a leader and Christ is it. Lets bring him to the world. Let us boldly ask for forgiveness and build the relationships we have lost.
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