Perfection and existence of imperfect being

[STT]

Change is the result of tendency toward an end, perfection is the end therefore nothing comes out of perfection since this requires a change. Consider God as perfection then how we could be created as imperfect beings.

 

[meltzerboy]

Change is the result of tendency toward an end, perfection is the end therefore nothing comes out of perfection since this requires a change. Consider God as perfection then how we could be created as imperfect beings.

One might equally ask how could we be created as perfect beings? If we were created as perfect, we would be the equivalent of G-d, which, theologically and philosophically speaking, would be impossible.

The change out of perfection, which you state is impossible, is not really so because it is not a change of the perfect being (G-d) who creates us, but rather an expression of G-d’s mind and will which results in creation. The creation itself is not an act in the human sense of a behavior which did not exist previously, but instead an eternal aspect of the Creator that emanates from Him.

One cannot and should not put G-d in a box designed by our own imperfect albeit rational mind. G-d the Creator is beyond and separate from His creation, yet at the same time is connected to His creation in a spiritual and moral sense.

 

[Karen107]

Change is the result of tendency toward an end, perfection is the end therefore nothing comes out of perfection since this requires a change. Consider God as perfection then how we could be created as imperfect beings.

Hi there thank you for asking the question.

First of all God never changes it is humans who change. We’re changing all the time! God is the Creator, we are the created so we don’t have to be the same. Matter is different than God who is spirit though we are also spiritual beings who come from God and so are affected by the Holy Spirit.

Secondly God did create the perfect first people whom we call Adam and Eve. They were in full communion with God so were eternal and immortal like God and lived in paradise. Adam and Eve however separated themselves from God because they sinned against God therefore lost their immortality and became imperfect mortal creatures. Now since Eve is the mother of all living, all of Eve’s descendants were affected by the sin of Adam and Eve therefore are mortal imperfect beings=us. This can be seen in us because our ancestors affect us in physical and spiritual ways.

Finally perfection is not endless as God is not endless but that is the direction we want to go, to be Christ like and in heaven. But we can’t get achieve ‘full’ perfection on our own, we need Gods mercy to be fully perfected and fully divine as God is. Then we will be in full communion with God again. So then what was lost though Adam is found through Jesus Christ (the New Adam). So therefore we must allow God to transform us to achieve perfection which comes through conversion and Gods mercy. I like this quote by Jesus who works always to change us while we’re here on earth.

Rev 21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

 

[STT]

One might equally ask how could we be created as perfect beings? If we were created as perfect, we would be the equivalent of G-d, which, theologically and philosophically speaking, would be impossible.

I am not aware of any argument which state that creation or existence of the second God is impossible. I have a thread for the later case here.

The change out of perfection, which you state is impossible, is not really so because it is not a change of the perfect being (G-d) who creates us, but rather an expression of G-d’s mind and will which results in creation. The creation itself is not an act in the human sense of a behavior which did not exist previously, but instead an eternal aspect of the Creator that emanates from Him.

That is true statement (bold part). It was difficult for me to verbalize it.

One cannot and should not put G-d in a box designed by our own imperfect albeit rational mind. G-d the Creator is beyond and separate from His creation, yet at the same time is connected to His creation in a spiritual and moral sense.

I don’t see why God should be beyond reason.

 

[STT]

Hi there thank you for asking the question.

First of all God never changes it is humans who change. We’re changing all the time! God is the Creator, we are the created so we don’t have to be the same. Matter is different than God who is spirit though we are also spiritual beings who come from God and so are affected by the Holy Spirit.

The creation is not perfect so there is a change in perfection due to act of creation and this is problematic as it is argued in the OP (there cannot be any change in perfection).

Secondly God did create the perfect first people whom we call Adam and Eve. They were in full communion with God so were eternal and immortal like God and lived in paradise. Adam and Eve however separated themselves from God because they sinned against God therefore lost their immortality and became imperfect mortal creatures. Now since Eve is the mother of all living, all of Eve’s descendants were affected by the sin of Adam and Eve therefore are mortal imperfect beings=us. This can be seen in us because our ancestors affect us in physical and spiritual ways.

Perfect thing doesn’t sin as they did. Perfect being is not subject of time as they were.

Finally perfection is not endless as God is not endless but that is the direction we want to go, to be Christ like and in heaven. But we can’t get achieve ‘full’ perfection on our own, we need Gods mercy to be fully perfected and fully divine as God is. Then we will be in full communion with God again. So then what was lost though Adam is found through Jesus Christ (the New Adam). So therefore we must allow God to transform us to achieve perfection which comes through conversion and Gods mercy. I like this quote by Jesus who works always to change us while we’re here on earth.

Rev 21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

I don’t know whether perfection is endless or not. Do you have any argument for that?

 

[Karen107]

The creation is not perfect so there is a change in perfection due to act of creation and this is problematic as it is argued in the OP (there cannot be any change in perfection).?

I’m going to throw this back at you for goodness sake… Do you believe that a perfect person who was unable to make any choices is a perfect person? If so how could that person live freely? And do you feel good after you make good choices on your own? Suppose you made a bad choice, do you learn from them? Would your offspring benefit from learning from your mistakes OR your good choices? Considering all this do you think having choices is a good or bad thing?

Perfect thing doesn’t sin as they did. Perfect being is not subject of time as they were. ?

That goes back to my first question I posed to you. Adam and Eve would have lived forever had they not gone against God.

I don’t know whether perfection is endless or not. Do you have any argument for that?

We will not be perfected until we are in union with God in heaven and that is done by Jesus perfecting us, by cleansing us of any imperfection we may have. While we are in our finite bodies we are imperfect beings though we should try to be the best we can be so we will not need so much purification in heaven. That’s why this perfection we speak of is endless, because heaven is endless. It is where God is. It cant even be described as a place but rather a state of being in a supernatural existence.

 

[Karen107]

Whoops… Sorry STT I wrote this wrong up above… I meant heavenly perfection and God are endless meaning having no beginning and no end…

.

Finally perfection is…endless as God is … endless but that is the direction we want to go, to be Christ like and in heaven.

 

[STT]

I’m going to throw this back at you for goodness sake… Do you believe that a perfect person who was unable to make any choices is a perfect person?

A perfect person can make decision.

If so how could that person live freely?

The person is free because s/he can make decision.

And do you feel good after you make good choices on your own?

Yes.

Suppose you made a bad choice, do you learn from them?

Of course.

Would your offspring benefit from learning from your mistakes OR your good choices?

Yes.

Considering all this do you think having choices is a good or bad thing?

A being necessary need the ability to choose.

That goes back to my first question I posed to you. Adam and Eve would have lived forever had they not gone against God.

Well, they sin because they were not perfect.

We will not be perfected until we are in union with God in heaven and that is done by Jesus perfecting us, by cleansing us of any imperfection we may have. While we are in our finite bodies we are imperfect beings though we should try to be the best we can be so we will not need so much purification in heaven. That’s why this perfection we speak of is endless, because heaven is endless. It is where God is. It cant even be described as a place but rather a state of being in a supernatural existence.

That is not the idea. The problem is that a perfect being, God, cannot create imperfect beings.

 

[meltzerboy]

A perfect person can make decision.

The person is free because s/he can make decision.

Yes.

Of course.

Yes.

A being necessary need the ability to choose.

Well, they sin because they were not perfect.

That is not the idea. The problem is that a perfect being, God, cannot create imperfect beings.

I think that depends on how you define “perfect.” When G-d created the heavens and earth and all the creatures that inhabit the earth, He said it was “good.” It was only after He created man did He say it was “very good.” Why did G-d say that? According to Jewish thinking, G-d said “very good” because only man was perfect. But in what sense was man perfect? Surely not in the sense of being identical to G-d. Rather, man was perfect because he was the ONLY being that G-d created who had free will. (Judaism does not believe that even the angels have free will.) Thus man could make decisions for himself without being biologically programmed only by nature, and thus man–like G-d–was separate from nature despite his biological component. This means that man alone was created in the image of G-d. However, this does NOT mean that man is the equivalent of G-d or can ever hope to be the equivalent of his Creator. Still, man is perfect in the sense that he was created by G-d in the best way possible to ensure he has freedom of mind, freedom to choose, freedom to create, freedom to develop his gifts in a positive direction, freedom to make the world (which was also not created “perfectly” by G-d according to Jewish belief) a better place, and so on, even though he is not perfect compared to the perfection of G-d. If he were so, man would be G-d, his own Creator, which he is not.

 

[Vico]

Change is the result of tendency toward an end, perfection is the end therefore nothing comes out of perfection since this requires a change. Consider God as perfection then how we could be created as imperfect beings.

Creation per Greek (Hesiod) system, first gods: Chaos, Gaia, Tartarus, Eros, Erebus, Nyx.

These Greek Gods we consider imperfect and morally questionable.

 

[Karen107]

A perfect person can make decision.

The person is free because s/he can make decision.

Yes.

Of course.

Yes.

A being necessary need the ability to choose.

Well, they sin because they were not perfect.

That is not the idea. The problem is that a perfect being, God, cannot create imperfect beings.

Well then it’s not God but our decisions to sin against God which caused the imperfection in us. Had we not been given free will we would be in communion still but than we’d not be able to love freely of our own will. Which is the only way to truly love. Remember that God is love and loves us freely and unconditionally and wants us to love the same way because that’s the kind of love that we need to do the work God created us for.

Ephesians 2:10*For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Now we’re talking about Our Loving God. One who is supposed to be the model for our Fathers on earth. They shall teach their children they way they should go and then allow them to make their own good choices or mistakes and learn from them.

Blessed are the ‘pure’ of heart for they shall see God.

 

[STT]

I think that depends on how you define “perfect.” When G-d created the heavens and earth and all the creatures that inhabit the earth, He said it was “good.” It was only after He created man did He say it was “very good.” Why did G-d say that? According to Jewish thinking, G-d said “very good” because only man was perfect. But in what sense was man perfect? Surely not in the sense of being identical to G-d. Rather, man was perfect because he was the ONLY being that G-d created who had free will. (Judaism does not believe that even the angels have free will.) Thus man could make decisions for himself without being biologically programmed only by nature, and thus man–like G-d–was separate from nature despite his biological component. This means that man alone was created in the image of G-d. However, this does NOT mean that man is the equivalent of G-d or can ever hope to be the equivalent of his Creator. Still, man is perfect in the sense that he was created by G-d in the best way possible to ensure he has freedom of mind, freedom to choose, freedom to create, freedom to develop his gifts in a positive direction, freedom to make the world (which was also not created “perfectly” by G-d according to Jewish belief) a better place, and so on, even though he is not perfect compared to the perfection of G-d. If he were so, man would be G-d, his own Creator, which he is not.

If very good means perfect then good means imperfect therefore heaven and earth were create imperfect.

 

[STT]

Creation per Greek (Hesiod) system, first gods: Chaos, Gaia, Tartarus, Eros, Erebus, Nyx.

These Greek Gods we consider imperfect and morally questionable.

We are generally talking about perfect God, whether is Greek’s God or Christian’s God.

 

[STT]

Well then it’s not God but our decisions to sin against God which caused the imperfection in us. Had we not been given free will we would be in communion still but than we’d not be able to love freely of our own will. Which is the only way to truly love. Remember that God is love and loves us freely and unconditionally and wants us to love the same way because that’s the kind of love that we need to do the work God created us for.

Ephesians 2:10*For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Now we’re talking about Our Loving God. One who is supposed to be the model for our Fathers on earth. They shall teach their children they way they should go and then allow them to make their own good choices or mistakes and learn from them.

Blessed are the ‘pure’ of heart for they shall see God.

Perfect being doesn’t sin.

 

[Wesrock]

Being, the Good, Knowledge, etc… exist perfectly in God, but can we say that God’s end is perfection? When we say God is perfection, I don’t believe we mean that in the same we mean “God is Being/Knowledge/Good”. God’s end is Himself and the Good, and he wills to manifest and share that goodness, is there any contradiction? That God allows imperfect beings to exist is a gift to those imperfect beings. He choose YOU to exist, not only things which would live more perfectly. By allowing imperfections, he is actually more inclusive in sharing his goodness. Instead of only allowing the “highest grade” to participate in Him, He calls for a wider variation in Creation, a wider array of grades of beings, to participate in Him, and more fully manifests His goodness.

A being that invites the poor to participate in Him is generally seen as more good than a being that reserves his table only for the rich, no? And God’s aim isn’t just to allow us to exist, but to call us into full participation in Him. To transform lower beings into this, as opposed to more perfect beings, seems a far greater feat, no?

 

[STT]

Being, the Good, Knowledge, etc… exist perfectly in God, but can we say that God’s end is perfection?

I don’t see any relation between perfection and being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. Do you?

When we say God is perfection, I don’t believe we mean that in the same we mean “God is Being/Knowledge/Good”. God’s end is Himself and the Good, and he wills to manifest and share that goodness, is there any contradiction?

Yes, there is a contradiction here. The act of creation cannot be imperfect if God is perfect. That is subject of OP. The perfection is the end.

That God allows imperfect beings to exist is a gift to those imperfect beings. He choose YOU to exist, not only things which would live more perfectly. By allowing imperfections, he is actually more inclusive in sharing his goodness. Instead of only allowing the “highest grade” to participate in Him, He calls for a wider variation in Creation, a wider array of grades of beings, to participate in Him, and more fully manifests His goodness.

I don’t think that God choose individual to exist. There is a process of mating which individual comes out of it randomly. There are millions of sperms in each ejaculation so there could be another person instead of me if another sperm could enter the egg.

A being that invites the poor to participate in Him is generally seen as more good than a being that reserves his table only for the rich, no? And God’s aim isn’t just to allow us to exist, but to call us into full participation in Him. To transform lower beings into this, as opposed to more perfect beings, seems a far greater feat, no?

We can never become perfect and that is the problem. A being who is not satisfied by her beings forever. That is to me is very cruel.

 

[Wesrock]

I don’t see any relation between perfection and being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. Do you?

Omnipotence and omniscience follow from God being subsistent being, but that seems a separate issue. Not sure why you bring up the omni qualities here.

Yes, there is a contradiction here. The act of creation cannot be imperfect if God is perfect. That is subject of OP. The perfection is the end.

I’d think God is perfect in a descriptive sense, not that he is subsistent perfection itself, with perfection being convertible with being. It has to do with the grade of being/goodness/knowledge he possesses. Perfection is not what we’d call a transcendental in itself. I do not therefore see a contradiction. God’s end is Himself, which is Being/Goodness (not perfection), and all things are being in that they exist as opposed to not existing. That is, God sustains the good. Any deficiency is not something created but something He didn’t create. In this, God’s end is the good and he only creates the good, all being is convertible with good.

I don’t think that God choose individual to exist. There is a process of mating which individual comes out of it randomly. There are millions of sperms in each ejaculation so there could be another person instead of me if another sperm could enter the egg.

God chose to create you and every individual that exists. I do not mean He reached out a hand to move one sperm instead of another, but when God chose to create, he chose to actively create everything that followed as a consequence. And His attention can’t be divided or distracted. He knew you and willed you to be now from all eternity.

We can never become perfect and that is the problem. A being who is not satisfied by her beings forever. That is to me is very cruel.

You are wrong. God desires to make you a wholely good human being to participate in Himself, with no imperfections in your humanity.

 

[STT]

Omnipotence and omniscience follow from God being subsistent being, but that seems a separate issue. Not sure why you bring up the omni qualities here.

I don’t see the relation. Could you please elaborate?

I’d think God is perfect in a descriptive sense, not that he is subsistent perfection itself, with perfection being convertible with being.

I cannot really follow you here. Could you please elaborate?

It has to do with the grade of being/goodness/knowledge he possesses. Perfection is not what we’d call a transcendental in itself. I do not therefore see a contradiction. God’s end is Himself, which is Being/Goodness (not perfection), and all things are being in that they exist as opposed to not existing. That is, God sustains the good.

So you mean that we could become more perfect than God? God to me should also be perfection. The end in all possible attributes.

Any deficiency is not something created but something He didn’t create. In this, God’s end is the good and he only creates the good, all being is convertible with good.

What do you mean? We are imperfect. Therefore God created imperfect.

God chose to create you and every individual that exists. I do not mean He reached out a hand to move one sperm instead of another, but when God chose to create, he chose to actively create everything that followed as a consequence. And His attention can’t be divided or distracted. He knew you and willed you to be now from all eternity.

Things to me see random than planed. What is the purpose of having millions of sperms in an ejaculation? The purpose is to have maximum chance of having a fertility. It is about chance so nothing is planned. That is why we are here, because of chance or evolution.

You are wrong. God desires to make you a wholely good human being to participate in Himself, with no imperfections in your humanity.

Could you be perfect and not God, as a human being for example? If yes, why God didn’t create us perfect in the first place?

 

[meltzerboy]

If very good means perfect then good means imperfect therefore heaven and earth were create imperfect.

As I previously noted, Judaism believes they were created imperfectly, but with the intention of creating mankind who, with G-d’s help, might remedy the imperfect situation.

 

[Vonsalza]

Change is the result of tendency toward an end, perfection is the end therefore nothing comes out of perfection since this requires a change. Consider God as perfection then how we could be created as imperfect beings.

Perhaps your view of perfection requires some additional consideration.

First, change being the “result of a tendency toward an end” is chokingly narrow and fatalist and I see no particular reason to be bound to that definition. I’m a rather big fan of the old Greek philosophy that change is simply an observable displacement. It can be spatial, temporal - whatever you like. I think the only binding rule is that it must be observable so as to verifiably encounter change.

And the notion that change denotes a departure from perfection is pretty easy to dispute. A perfect caterpillar becomes a perfect butterfly - it changes and perfection is retained the whole way through. A perfect seed becomes a perfect sapling. I could go on ad nauseam.

Ultimately, you were made to fulfill your purpose perfectly - whatever that is. Your perfection will not precisely mirror God’s during this mortal shuffle because it was not made to. That would be an deviation from your design - an imperfection, as it were.

You were made with a perfectly intact will. You may perfectly pursue perfect goodness or perfect evil. Your “machinery” was perfectly designed for doing so.

Go in peace