Perfectionism

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fisherman_carl

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What is the difference between a perfectionist complex and striving for Christian perfection?

“Perfectionism, in psychology, is a personality disposition characterized by an individual striving for flawlessness and setting excessively high performance standards, accompanied by overly critical self-evaluations and concerns regarding others’ evaluations.[1][2] It is best conceptualized as a multidimensional characteristic, as psychologists tend to agree that there are both negative and positive aspects of perfectionism.[3] In its maladaptive form, perfectionism drives individuals to attempt to achieve an unobtainable ideal, and their failure to meet their expectations causes psychological distress. Adaptive perfectionism can motivate people to reach their goals, and they derive pleasure from doing so.”
 
fisherman_carl said:
What is the difference between a perfectionist complex and striving for Christian perfection?

“Perfectionism, in psychology, is a personality disposition characterized by an individual striving for flawlessness and setting excessively high performance standards, accompanied by overly critical self-evaluations and concerns regarding others’ evaluations.[1][2] It is best conceptualized as a multidimensional characteristic, as psychologists tend to agree that there are both negative and positive aspects of perfectionism.[3] In its maladaptive form, perfectionism drives individuals to attempt to achieve an unobtainable ideal, and their failure to meet their expectations causes psychological distress. Adaptive perfectionism can motivate people to reach their goals, and they derive pleasure from doing so.”
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Did the apostles strive for perfection or did they sit and listen to the words of Jesus in person?
I’m not counting Paul in this because he never sat and listened to Jesus. He merely had a vision.
 
StrawberryJam said:
Did the apostles strive for perfection or did they sit and listen to the words of Jesus in person?
I’m not counting Paul in this because he never sat and listened to Jesus. He merely had a vision.
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I’m not sure what you mean by this question. What are you getting at?
 
" For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away"
  • 1 Cor 13:9
Paul envisions perfection when Christ comes and makes all things new. But our strivings for perfection will always fall short since we are imperfecg. As Paul says our knowledge is imperfect.

I think perfectionism is when we hold ourselves to impossibley difficult ideals and feel bad when we fall short. This could also cause paralysis because we fear failure, that we will miss the mark. so much that we do not dare to even try.

Christian perfection is not the same as perfectionism. Our goals in Christianity are not impossible ideals but are about becoming who God meant us to be which entirely a possibility since God made us and knows what we are capable of. Christian perfection incorporates our weaknesses. Paul says when I am weak then I am strong, for God’s power is made more visible in weakness. Thus, in Christianity weakness, which is the opposite of perfectionism which tries to hide weakness, is made perfect through God’s power manifest in us.

Perfectionism can cause depression and anxiety. Christian perfection gives us realistic goals we can strive for and builds us up in love. When we make mistakes Christian love calls for mercy not chastisement. For we are to be merciful as God is merciful.

We all have weaknesses and flaws. Yet these are our greatest strengths. Paul knew and understood this.
 
I think with perfectionism, people try too hard to get everything right, on their own, and not so much for the glory of God.

Christian perfection is something totally different: it is trying, with the help of God, to become good, to become holy.

Perfectionists try to control the outcome and make it perfect, but holy people just do what God wants them to do and leave the outcome up to God.

And perfectionists and saints can both drive people crazy, but for very different reasons.
 
StrawberryJam said:
Why do most believers today strive for perfection that the apostles save Paul, did not?
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First of all - I don’t know that most believers today DO “strive for perfection” this may be one of the problems in Christianity…

Second - Jesus Himself set the bar pretty high in Mt 5:48
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Third - Where does it say that the Apostles (including Paul) did not strive for perfection?

Peace
James
 
St_Francis said:
I think with perfectionism, people try too hard to get everything right, on their own, and not so much for the glory of God.

Christian perfection is something totally different: it is trying, with the help of God, to become good, to become holy.

Perfectionists try to control the outcome and make it perfect, but holy people just do what God wants them to do and leave the outcome up to God.

And perfectionists and saints can both drive people crazy, but for very different reasons.
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👍👍

If I may add - based on what we find in the Gospels…It seems that Christian perfection is to be “perfect in Love”…since Love is the root of the Great commandments (Mt 22:36-40 - Love is what God “Is” (1 John 4:7-8) and we are to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect (Mt 5:48)

Peace
James
 
St_Francis said:
I think with perfectionism, people try too hard to get everything right, on their own, and not so much for the glory of God.

Christian perfection is something totally different: it is trying, with the help of God, to become good, to become holy.

Perfectionists try to control the outcome and make it perfect, but holy people just do what God wants them to do and leave the outcome up to God.

And perfectionists and saints can both drive people crazy, but for very different reasons.
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I agree. Striving for Christian perfection needs to come from humility and love. I think a better word is sanctification.

Striving for perfectionism as an end in itself comes from pride.
 
fisherman_carl said:
What is the difference between a perfectionist complex and striving for Christian perfection?

“Perfectionism, in psychology, is a personality disposition characterized by an individual striving for flawlessness and setting excessively high performance standards, accompanied by overly critical self-evaluations and concerns regarding others’ evaluations.[1][2] It is best conceptualized as a multidimensional characteristic, as psychologists tend to agree that there are both negative and positive aspects of perfectionism.[3] In its maladaptive form, perfectionism drives individuals to attempt to achieve an unobtainable ideal, and their failure to meet their expectations causes psychological distress. Adaptive perfectionism can motivate people to reach their goals, and they derive pleasure from doing so.”
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There’s no trust in God in perfectionism: it’s either do or die. In Christian striving for perfection, we see a goal which has already been proven to be unachievable by our own efforts, without grace, but a wholly worthwhile goal nonetheless because the alternative is that sin remains. And once we admit to the existence of sin, which is opposition to the will of God, then the only acceptable goal is to be perfectly as His will ordains. With continuous forgiveness and grace on hand with which to work out this perfection we know we can fail, then rise again, while maintaining the humility that comes from knowing that only through God will it be made a reality.
 
Can anyone comment on how our weaknesses make us strong? This seems opposite to Perfectionism which tries to hide weaknesses to appear ‘perfect’ to others.

"Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; 9 but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong. "
  • 1 Cor 12:8-10
 
Dorothy said:
I agree. Striving for Christian perfection needs to come from humility and love. I think a better word is sanctification.

Striving for perfectionism as an end in itself comes from pride.
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I think it is more than that. I see it as coming from fear of failure or fear of rejection. Perfectionists try to appear perfect to others because they think they will be rejected if others know that they really are not perfect. Perhaps they had parents who drove them to strive for perfection in sports or other things. Their parents may have strongly criticized them when they failed. I can relate to this. For example, when I was a boy my dad was my hockey coach. If I had a good game my dad would buy me an ice cream cone. But if I had a bad game he would ball me out. He was harder on me than anyone else because I was his son and he didn’t want to appear to others that he was playing favorites.
 
Also, when I think of Perfectionism in Christianity I think of how a Perfectionist would think of God as rejecting them because of their weaknesses and is going to punish them because they are ‘not good enough.’ However, Paul says the exact opposite. He says God’s power is made perfect in weakness.
 
fhansen said:
There’s no trust in God in perfectionism: it’s either do or die. In Christian striving for perfection, we see a goal which has already been proven to be unachievable by our own efforts, without grace, but a wholly worthwhile goal nonetheless because the alternative is that sin remains. And once we admit to the existence of sin, which is opposition to the will of God, then the only acceptable goal is to be perfectly as His will ordains. With continuous forgiveness and grace on hand with which to work out this perfection we know we can fail, then rise again, while maintaining the humility that comes from knowing that only through God will it be made a reality.
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But if Christian perfection involves achieving what is essentially impossible for us then aren’t we setting ourselves up for failure and disappointment? But, if God is just asking us to be who he created us to be, to be our full human potential, ie. before the fall of Adam, then it is possible for us to be that way since that was our original design. God wouldn’t expect the impossible from us. It may be difficult or impossible for us to achieve Christian perfection in an already fallen state, but after baptism we are no longer slaves to sin and with God’s grace it becomes possible as our hearts are transformed by him.
 
If we have all sinned then none of us are perfect. Even if we eventually achieve perfect sinlessness we still were at one time sinners. That means that we could never be considered perfect. We will always have a tainted record. Would you trust a god who was at one time imperfect if he now says he is perfect? How could perfection come from imperfection? The only way we could be perfect is if God makes us perfect since he is already perfect and knows what that is and knows what perfection in us looks like.

A machinist achieves perfection when he machines a piece of metal to within tolerances. The metal by itself can not achieve this on its own. It is only because the machinist knows what perfection is and how to achieve it that he can hone the metal to its proper form.

Imagine the fruitlessness of hoping the metal will somehow achieve the proper form on its own without help. It would be pointless for the metal to be self-critical about its inability to reach perfection on its own. Since it is asking itself to do the impossible. Without the work of the machinists the metal could not be transformed.

Therefore, Christian perfection is really a cooperative effort. The metal needs to be ‘willing’ to be transformed at the hands of the machinist. But, the metal can in no way take credit for the finished product.

“Yet, O LORD, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou art our potter; we are all the work of thy hand.”
  • Is 64:8
 
God’s power is made perfect in weakness because it more clearly shows the skill of the machinist at work? If God can use a bad lump of clay it illustrates just how good God is as a potter?

"For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth; 27 but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption; 31 therefore, as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord.” " (1 Cor 26-31)
 
This is an important and very valuable discussion. With respect to perfectionism as it applies to our Catholic faith, our Lord has wisely instructed us to “be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” Matthew 5:48. Yet, this needs to be taken within the right context. True, we are called to be perfect, but certainly NOT relating to sinless perfection which is impossible for any human being to attain. Rather, we are call to be PERFECT IN LOVE. For our Lord’s greatest commandment is “You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like it, you shall love your neighbour as yourself” Luke 10:27.

For those struggling with scrupulosity and being overly concerned with perfectly following the teachings of our one true Lord Jesus Christ, a helpful podcast and supporting resources can be found at thescrupulouscatholic.wordpress.com/the-scrupulous-catholic-podcast/ (episode 3).

Please be at peace, and may God bless :-)!
 
breakfreetoo said:
This is an important and very valuable discussion. With respect to perfectionism as it applies to our Catholic faith, our Lord has wisely instructed us to “be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” Matthew 5:48. Yet, this needs to be taken within the right context. True, we are called to be perfect, but certainly NOT relating to sinless perfection which is impossible for any human being to attain. Rather, we are call to be PERFECT IN LOVE. For our Lord’s greatest commandment is “You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like it, you shall love your neighbour as yourself” Luke 10:27.

For those struggling with scrupulosity and being overly concerned with perfectly following the teachings of our one true Lord Jesus Christ, a helpful podcast and supporting resources can be found at thescrupulouscatholic.wordpress.com/the-scrupulous-catholic-podcast/ (episode 3).

Please be at peace, and may God bless :-)!
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Sad. The comments have turned to being scrupulous. We are to work to purify ourselves of all sin. This is usually followed by - for some - “Aw, but how can I have any fun?” Proper rest and proper relaxation are important but not sinful indulgence.

Are the Ten Commandments not a further explanation of the Commandments Jesus gave us? And the seven deadly sins, are they not a further explanation of specific things we not should not do? Greed, envy, gluttony, sloth, wrath, pride (no, not being proud of your work and enjoying it but boasting about yourself), and lust. Jesus gave many examples through parables, and through His explaining the parables to His disciples about what we are to do.

And what about helping the poor?

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-46&version=ESV

But has God not given us other things to enjoy? Yes, he has given us many good, wholesome things.

bible.cc/philippians/4-8.htm

And suffering.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+4%3A12-13&version=NKJV

bible.cc/psalms/66-10.htm

From Scripture Catholic:

Rom. 5:2-3 - Paul says that more than rejoicing in our hope, we rejoice in our sufferings which produces endurance, character and hope. Through faith, suffering brings about hope in God and, through endurance, salvation.

Eph. 3:13 - Do not to lose heart over my sufferings for your glory. Our suffering also benefits others in the mystical body of Christ.

2 Thess. 1:5 - we may be made worthy of the kingdom of God for which we are suffering. This is because suffering causes us to turn to God and purifies us from sin.

Jesus tells us that he came to give us life more abundantly.

bible.cc/john/10-10.htm

When we commit sin, it can involve only ourselves but usually affects other as well.

Peace,
Ed
 
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