Perfidious Non-Catholics?

[notself]

In this day and age pretty much all Jew, non-Christians, and atheists know about the Catholic Church and a great deal of what it teaches. The Church repeatedly states that it is the one and true church and all others are false. Is everyone going to hell who does not convert to Catholicism prior to death?

This is what those quotes seem to be saying. Am I correct?

 

[Eugene_v]

In this day and age pretty much all Jew, non-Christians, and atheists know about the Catholic Church and a great deal of what it teaches. The Church repeatedly states that it is the one and true church and all others are false. Is everyone going to hell who does not convert to Catholicism prior to death?

This is what those quotes seem to be saying. Am I correct?

Yes.
You are Correct.
It is up to Jesus, but this is what Jesus has said and has taught His Church, so yes.

 

[Binary]

In this day and age pretty much all Jew, non-Christians, and atheists know about the Catholic Church and a great deal of what it teaches. The Church repeatedly states that it is the one and true church and all others are false. Is everyone going to hell who does not convert to Catholicism prior to death?

This is what those quotes seem to be saying. Am I correct?

That is indeed what those quotes seem to be saying, at least those who use the phrase “hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.” I think all of the others are reconcilable by way of the reasoning I posted earlier in this thread.

As a Catholic, this presents a significant problem for me. It seems to me that there are only three possibilities: Premise 1 is false, premise 2 is false, or Catholic theology contradicts itself.

Premise 1: The pope is preserved from error when he makes a statement about theology or morals. This premise could be incorrect if an additional factor is required, allowing us to say, “those statements made by the popes were incorrect.”

Premise 2: Non-catholics cannot hold the catholic faith whole and inviolate. I don’t really know what this phrase means. Does it mean to understand and assent to all catholic dogma? If so, it seems absurd because it would exclude even Catholics who, through no fault of their own, remain ignorant of some teachings of the church.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Premise 2: Non-catholics cannot hold the catholic faith whole and inviolate.

I don’t really know what this phrase means.

It means that whomever must HOLD (culpably cling to a belief) the ENTIRE DOGMATIC CONTENT of the Deposit of Faith (as per the Magisterium).

Does it mean to understand and assent to all catholic dogma?

No. One doesn’t need to understand it. One CAN only assent to that which one knows about.

If so, it seems absurd because it would exclude even Catholics who, through no fault of their own, remain ignorant of some teachings of the church.

As long as a person doesn’t ACT in a way which contradicts Catholic dogma no sin happens.

One doesn’t need to be a Catholic to not sin. One simply needs to “not sin”.

One is only “bound for hell” if one mortally sins. To mortally sin: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent. (1857)”

We are judged (by God) according to our acts, not our “membership card”.

It’s great when the “card” matches the person’s acts, but the “card” in itself is proof of nothing.

:shamrock2:

 

[Wonderboo]

So I’m really not sure what offends me more the lack of Christian charity or the lack of basic church history. We’ll start with the easy one, the lack of Church history:
I open with a question: does everything that comes out of the Pope’s mouth become infallible? Is the church’s condemnation of the modern world still holding true? Is religious freedom a tool of the devil? The train ought we not ever take the train? THe church ought to hold as much land and earthly wealth as possible? The list of things that the Church has taught that it no longer teaches could be a very long one. Which ones does the Church have to keep. The answer I’m assuming you’ll give me is that only the infallible ones…well what makes a teaching infallible? I’ll tell you right now that idea didn’t come to play until the 19th century, before that it was politics.
Now, Vatican Two has happened, I know some of you may not want to accept that but it has. That means that the Bishops have come up with some new ideas (that, Church teaching that is older then its teachings on well almost everything, says you must follow). Those ideas are things like religious freedom for all people and THE IDEA THAT ALL PEOPLE EVEN THOSE OUTSIDE THE FAITH CAN BE SAVED!!! (please read Unitatis Redintegratio, Nostra Aetate, Dignitatis Humanae). At the end of the day and at the end of church teachings those ideas from Vatican Two are the ones that matter now, not the ones from 500 years ago.

Now the Christian Charity idea. I understand that to be Catholic you have to think you’re right, thats great but understand that our God is a loving God and even the CAtholic church has taught that he will take and love all those who can look at His face and love Him back.

Thanks
Tootles and Love

 

[Pwrlftr]

Until Vatican One the Pope did not have what we have come to call Papal Infallibility.

I’m not sure I understand this statement.

Are you saying that no pope was infallible unitl Vatican 1?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

In a couple other threads, Eugene_v_ said:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pagan:a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.(dictionary.com)

Jew: Person of the Jewish Religion

Heretic - a baptized person who rejects a dogma of the Catholic Church. Heretics are automatically excommunicated from the Church (ipso facto) without any declaration for rejecting an authoritative teaching of the Faith.

Schismatic - a baptized person who refuses communion with a true pope or with true Catholics. Schismatics are almost always also heretics. Schismatics also incur automatic excommunication.

In essence, based on the definition of Heretic and Schismatic, those who are Not Catholic, or outside of the Church of Christ are those whom the Church has Dogmatically defined as "unlinked"His post went unanswered. This goes against my understanding of post-Vatian II Church teaching, but who am I to argue with a Pope speaking infallibly?

What’s the story?

**1. It may have been authentic - but not infallible. It could be erroneous. **

**2. It has been superceded. It is self-evident that a good deal of the world would be damned as it had never heard the Gospel preached; & it would be a moral monstrosity for entire continents to be damned for not being subject to the Pope because a Pope had said that they were damned, when they had not had the slightest opportunity to hear the Gospel. Those who wish to believe that God damns Polynesians, Indians, Maoris & Hottentots for failing to be subject to a bishop whose very existence they could know nothing of, may do so. **

3. The formulations of the past cannot take account of those that come after them - that that come after can and sghould take account of what came before them. So we should interpret the above quotation by in the light of V2, & not V2 by that quotation.

 

[notself]

Is perfidious a word used often to describe former Catholics?

Its bare meaning means unfaithful such as an unfaithful spouse.
Its more complete meaning is treacherous.

I find it an odd usage.

 

[notself]

Yes.
You are Correct.
It is up to Jesus, but this is what Jesus has said and has taught His Church, so yes.

This means that according to the Catholic Church, 90% of the population of the planet is damned by Jesus. What an interesting dogma.

 

[MrDickerson]

Pope Eugine does not seem to be saying anything like, “unless I am mistaken about who is joined”. He seems to be listing who is not joined and then allowing for conversion before death. (If he were allowing joining without conversion he would not have needed to add “before the end of their lives” since presumably Jews are Jewish already.)

Please elaborate on this. I didn’t find what you were referring to in the document or didn’t understand your point here.

Bubba, I am a Catholic who believes in the perpetual dogma of “Outside the Church is no Salvation” and takes Pope Eugene’s statement–(which is an infallible proclamation, whereas Vatican II was not dogmatic but pastoral, and therefore not infallible)–at face value. As recently as the 1950s, Pope Pius XII issued an encyclical (Mystici Corporis) where he warned against those who turn the doctrine of No Salvation outside the Catholic Church into a “meaningless formula”. And those who do try to put a “spin” on this doctrine like most of the posters here do turn it into a mere meaningless formula!

I’m also not sure where the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”–with its ambiguous language and confusing, often contradictory, statements, became THE final say in Catholic doctrine. It’s not infallible. Much better to stick with tried and true catechisms like the Baltimore Catechism, the “My Catholic Faith” catechism, and most especially the Catechism of the Council of Trent (the Roman Catechism).

There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church–and yes, that means exactly what it looks like.

God bless.

 

[MrDickerson]

This means that according to the Catholic Church, 90% of the population of the planet is damned by Jesus. What an interesting dogma.

I would guess that more than 90% of the population is damned. I can’t recall the exact verse, but somewhere in Isaiah it says that the number of the saved will be like the grapes left on the vines after the pickers have gone through. And Jesus Himself said that few would be saved:

“Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction: and many there are who go thereat. How narrow is the gate and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!”
(St Matthew vii,13-15)

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

This means that according to the Catholic Church, 90% of the population of the planet is damned by Jesus. What an interesting dogma.

I don’t think you guys are going to shame EugeneV into changing his interpretation. He seems to have marshalled some impressive support for his case. I think he’s earned a more serious reply.

But on this point, let me remind everyone of a choice that Moses made in Exodus 32:7-14

And the LORD said to Moses, “Go down, for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves. They have turned aside quickly out of the way that I commanded them. They have made for themselves a golden calf and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it and said, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!’” And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people. Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you.”

But Moses implored the LORD his God and said, “O LORD, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth’” Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your offspring, and they shall inherit it forever.’" And the LORD relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people.

Moses argued with God up on behalf of sinners. And won the argument.

 

[NonCatholic]

I know, with certainty, that I will be with the Lord and will escape the wrath to come, yet I am not Catholic. I know a lot of brothers and sisters in Christ that have the same destiny and are not Catholic.

 

[notself]

I would guess that more than 90% of the population is damned. I can’t recall the exact verse, but somewhere in Isaiah it says that the number of the saved will be like the grapes left on the vines after the pickers have gone through. And Jesus Himself said that few would be saved:

“Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction: and many there are who go thereat. How narrow is the gate and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!”
(St Matthew vii,13-15)

Well I believe, and follow a teaching that states, if one leads a life of loving kindness and compassion, one will be have the benefit of those acts. If one leads a life of greed and hatred, one will not. This goes for everyone on the planet.

I really don’t understand why Catholics believe the way you do. It is baffling to me.

 

[MrDickerson]

Well I believe, and follow a teaching that states, if one leads a life of loving kindness and compassion, one will be have the benefit of those acts. If one leads a life of greed and hatred, one will not. This goes for everyone on the planet.

I really don’t understand why Catholics believe the way you do. It is baffling to me.

Because you are still a sinner who needs a Savior, Jesus Christ, and to be saved you must be part of the Church He founded and which He purchased with His own blood on the Cross. We come to God on His terms–not on ours.

 

[MrDickerson]

I know, with certainty, that I will be with the Lord and will escape the wrath to come, yet I am not Catholic. I know a lot of brothers and sisters in Christ that have the same destiny and are not Catholic.

Well, you’re absolutely wrong. Mormons know “with certainty” that their religion is true and that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Muslims know “with certainty” that Islam is the only true religion and that Mohammad was the greatest and last prophet.

Your “certainty” means nothing. Furthermore, you are committing the sin of presumption by presuming that you are going to heaven, instead of obeying all the commands of Christ and His Apostles–including being part of the one, true Catholic Church founded by Him–and working out your salvation with fear and trembling like St. Paul said.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Bubba, I am a Catholic who believes in the perpetual dogma of “Outside the Church is no Salvation” and takes Pope Eugene’s statement–(which is an infallible proclamation, whereas Vatican II was not dogmatic but pastoral, and therefore not infallible)–at face value. As recently as the 1950s, Pope Pius XII issued an encyclical (Mystici Corporis) where he warned against those who turn the doctrine of No Salvation outside the Catholic Church into a “meaningless formula”. And those who do try to put a “spin” on this doctrine like most of the posters here do turn it into a mere meaningless formula!

I’m also not sure where the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”–with its ambiguous language and confusing, often contradictory, statements, became THE final say in Catholic doctrine.

**The Pope endorsed the CCC as “a sure norm for Catholic teaching” in 1995. Popes ought to be able say whether a document truly expresses the Faith; to do so is part of their function. **​

It’s not infallible. Much better to stick with tried and true catechisms like the Baltimore Catechism, the “My Catholic Faith” catechism, and most especially the Catechism of the Council of Trent (the Roman Catechism).

There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church–and yes, that means exactly what it looks like.

God bless.

EENS is more ambiguous than it may look.​

**As for the 90%, that if true merely succeeds in making Catholicism anything but the Good News - it becomes instead the worst news possible, for Jesus Christ becomes anything but a Saviour. It’s an argument for atheism, & a very powerful one. **

**BTW, the CCC contains the authentic teaching of the CC. To ignore it is to condemn oneself to learning an incomplete & lop-sided Catholicism. It does not matter that it is not all infallible - much of it is; it does not need to be infallible to be the authentic teaching of the Church. The Roman Catechism has been corrected - by Pius XII, whom many seem to regard as the model (& last ) Pope. The Baltimore Catechisms may be fine for US CAtholics - but there are also a few Catholics outside the US, for whom the BCs were not intended: the CC is world-wide, not **
**confined to the US. **

**If the CCC is to be rejected, the logic that allows that is powerless to hinder others rejecing other Catholic documents as equally inadequate. This leads to the fragmentation of the Church & its faith into as many secticules as there are men to find its authentic teaching not to their liking. A refusal of the CCC as what it is, a teaching document of the CC, is inadvisable in the extreme; it leads to one inconsistency after another. So it is far better in the long run, though often very painful, to live with difficulties; but life is like that. **

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Well I believe, and follow a teaching that states, if one leads a life of loving kindness and compassion, one will be have the benefit of those acts. If one leads a life of greed and hatred, one will not. This goes for everyone on the planet.

I really don’t understand why Catholics believe the way you do. It is baffling to me.

Some do - some don’t. So threads on this topic can be very long…​

I believe Christians are those who behave as such, dogmas or no dogmas. All the dogmas in the world are so much dung if they don’t make those who believe them more Christlike.

There is the Parable of the Good Samaritan - updated, it would probably be something like the Parable of the Good Hindu, or the Good Atheist, or the Good Baptist, or the Good Abortionist. The priest & Levite in it would become “True Catholics”, one a priest, the other a deacon. And there could be equally unacceptable versions of it for other Christians.

It must have been unbelievably offensive when first told - it needs to remain offensive.

 

[NonCatholic]

Well, you’re absolutely wrong. Mormons know “with certainty” that their religion is true and that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Muslims know “with certainty” that Islam is the only true religion and that Mohammad was the greatest and last prophet.

Your “certainty” means nothing. Furthermore, you are committing the sin of presumption by presuming that you are going to heaven, instead of obeying all the commands of Christ and His Apostles–including being part of the one, true Catholic Church founded by Him–and working out your salvation with fear and trembling like St. Paul said.

Or I’m correct and you are wrong…that’s also a possibility… I can show from Scripture my position…something you cannot do.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Or I’m correct and you are wrong…that’s also a possibility… I can show from Scripture my position…something you cannot do.

Hmmm…

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”