Perhaps I am too conservative

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Drunken_Master

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Please have patience with me; I have trouble articulating my thoughts.

I don’t know anymore. I have always viewed sex as, well, a great thing in moderation. I believe sex is a gift from God when it is between two married adults, open to the possibility of children. However, as I ponder more and more on the subject, I begin to think that a lot of sex is somewhat a form of gluttony, mainly sex without the possibility of children. In my view, God created sex for the purpose of pro-creation. That is the main function of the organs. So when those organs can no longer be used for their main purpose, then using them would be gluttony; in the same way that oral or anal sex is. Am I wrong for holding this opinion? Thank you for any help you can give me.
 
Drunken_Master said:
Please have patience with me; I have trouble articulating my thoughts.

I don’t know anymore. I have always viewed sex as, well, a great thing in moderation. I believe sex is a gift from God when it is between two married adults, open to the possibility of children. However, as I ponder more and more on the subject, I begin to think that a lot of sex is somewhat a form of gluttony, mainly sex without the possibility of children. In my view, God created sex for the purpose of pro-creation. That is the main function of the organs. So when those organs can no longer be used for their main purpose, then using them would be gluttony; in the same way that oral or anal sex is. Am I wrong for holding this opinion? Thank you for any help you can give me.
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Not within the context of a marital relationship.

Remember sex also has a UNITIVE purpose, it is part and parcel of that marital bond between the couple, children or no, menopause or no. It’s not selfish or wrong in any way to want sex in order to bring you closer to your spouse!

The ‘openness to life’ that is required is part and parcel of the unitive purpose too - a total self-giving by one spouse to the other, including a total giving of the potential for children that the marital act contains.

The unitive purpose is an extremely important purpose behind sex.
 
Read Humanae Vitae. Sex was not created solely for procreation: it was also created to express the unity of the two spouses into one flesh and to strengthen that bond. This purpose remains active even when the procreative act is rendered impossible by God’s design (either the infertile times during a woman’s cycle or by menopause).

Jeremy
 
Thank you for your responses. But, sex can become simple satifation of lust. I remember seeing a poll that said 77% of sex between married couples is caused by lust. In that circumstance, where one or both spouses become just tools to satisfy carnal desires, then sex loses it’s meaning. I want to become a monk, and I cannot see how others could be so alright with post-menopausal sex. It just seems wrong to me for some reason. How do we know that menopause isn’t God’s way of saying, “OY! Cut it out you two!”?
 
Just because sex brings pleasure doesn’t automatically make it lustful. Sexual intimacy is profound expression of marital love. Why would God want married couples to “cut it out”?
 
Drunken_Master said:
Thank you for your responses. But, sex can become simple satifation of lust. I remember seeing a poll that said 77% of sex between married couples is caused by lust. In that circumstance, where one or both spouses become just tools to satisfy carnal desires, then sex loses it’s meaning. I want to become a monk, and I cannot see how others could be so alright with post-menopausal sex. It just seems wrong to me for some reason. How do we know that menopause isn’t God’s way of saying, “OY! Cut it out you two!”?
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Spoken like someone who wants to be a celibate monk 🙂

Your ideas are like saying no-one should ever eat because eating CAN be motivated by gluttony.

Sex has a necessary place in every marriage for as long as that marriage exists and both partners wish to physically renew that marital bond. Just like everyone no matter how gluttonous, needs to eat from time to time to nourish themselves.

It’s not menopause that is God’s signal to stop, rather the death of one of the partners.

And it’s the partners who are beholden to develop sufficient self-knowledge and self-discipline to tell the difference between sex that is motivated by sinful lust and that which is a genuine expression of marital love.

The fact that some, even most, fail to do so is no reason for a blanket ban on post-menopausal sex any more than it is for a blanket ban on food.
 
Drunken_Master said:
Thank you for your responses. But, sex can become simple satifation of lust. I remember seeing a poll that said 77% of sex between married couples is caused by lust. In that circumstance, where one or both spouses become just tools to satisfy carnal desires, then sex loses it’s meaning. I want to become a monk, and I cannot see how others could be so alright with post-menopausal sex. It just seems wrong to me for some reason. How do we know that menopause isn’t God’s way of saying, “OY! Cut it out you two!”?
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Remember our Catholic roots: God is procreative, yes, but he created us so that we can join Him in heaven.

The marital embrace reminds us of God’s love. The sexual act must have a unitive aspect to image His love. Viewing our sexuality as a purely biological means to reproduction misses the point as much as viewing it for pleasurable means. They are two sides of the same coin, and both of them can trick us into missing God’s plan for our sexuality.

Try reading up on the Catechism, or check out www.christopherwest.com.

P.S. The reasoning of menopause being a sign to discontinue sexual intercourse is faulty in biological areas, too. You do know that men can continue to be fertile past age 70 and that menopause can be delayed based on pregnancy and child spacing, right?
 
Why does this gift from God (sexuality) lead so many into trouble? Without the moral guidance from God even in our secular world sex can be the dominate thing on our minds every day. Surely sex is more than the simply for reproductive purposes because the desire can be unruly and pervasive at times, and is often in some way the cause of marriage breakdowns.

I am not married, but do married Christians at least 10 or 20 percent of the time think of the covenantal bond between their spouse or that they could be reproducing if it is God’s will. I congratulate that person if he does. I recently saw a documentary were a small group of evangelical Christians (non-Catholic anyway) were saying how great their sex life is as a Christian, and one even said that they have sex twice a day with his wife! I think he would have been waiting deperately for the first night together! Anyway, sex is about the sex these days for many people. Maybe I’m just bitter that I am not married…
 
Drunken_Master said:
How do we know that menopause isn’t God’s way of saying, “OY! Cut it out you two!”?
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I think menopause is God’s way of keeping 90-year-olds from having babies, and breaking bones from carrying them inside them- or dying of old age before they’ve cut their baby teeth. There really isn’t anything bad about sex. Like many things, it can become- and has become- perverted. That is man’s doing- it isn’t part of God’s creation.
 
Drunken_Master said:
Thank you for your responses. But, sex can become simple satifation of lust. I remember seeing a poll that said 77% of sex between married couples is caused by lust. In that circumstance, where one or both spouses become just tools to satisfy carnal desires, then sex loses it’s meaning. I want to become a monk, and I cannot see how others could be so alright with post-menopausal sex. It just seems wrong to me for some reason. How do we know that menopause isn’t God’s way of saying, “OY! Cut it out you two!”?
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We are Catholic - we have a God of miracles!

A couple of ladies come to mind, one had a husband named Abraham and they were well on in years when a certain baby came. The other is the mother of John the Baptist.

Glad neither of them thought along your lines about the topic.
 
I’m going to help Drunken Master and play devils advocate for a moment. Is there ever a point in married life, after the kids are raised, after retirement, when the spiritual life of the couple is elevated to a level above and beyond sexual fullfilment? Isn’t celebacy considered to be a better or more holy state, if you will?

I think about Mary and Joseph’s relationship. Their love for one another and for God took them beyond a physical relationship. I know Mary was made different from the rest of us, but Joseph was just a regular Joe. His bond to Her was not lessoned because they lacked a physical relationship. Should this form of marraige, after the child bearing years, be the ideal that we should aspire to?
 
If God has given pleasure in our organs, then be grateful for it, but don’t over indulge in it to fulfill your selfish desires.

God gave it, it’s a beautiful thing, so enjoy it.
 
MH84 said:
Why does this gift from God (sexuality) lead so many into trouble?
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Since Jesus is to be our example for everything, I think many people go astray with regards to sex and sexuality because we do not have an example from Jesus. There are many instances in the Gospels which we can go to for help, but it’s not like we can say, “Oh, hmm, let’s look at Jesus’ sex life and see what He did in this situation.”

“Know what I mean, Verne?”
 
Drunken_Master said:
Thank you for your responses. But, sex can become simple satifation of lust. I remember seeing a poll that said 77% of sex between married couples is caused by lust. In that circumstance, where one or both spouses become just tools to satisfy carnal desires, then sex loses it’s meaning. I want to become a monk, and I cannot see how others could be so alright with post-menopausal sex. It just seems wrong to me for some reason. How do we know that menopause isn’t God’s way of saying, “OY! Cut it out you two!”?
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More than anything, I hope you will review your opinion about sex (late in a marriage) with your spiritual director. The notion that sex within a lawful (loving) marriage could be a detriment to holiness is simply at odds with the teaching of the Church.

A couple might chose to become abstinant for any number of good and holy reasons but that is considered to be exceptional behavior and not the norm. Your quote of “a poll that said 77% of sex between married couples is caused by lust” is a far cry from any personal knowledge of acting out lust rather than love within a consecrated marriage. The notion that sex is debasing to a marriage rather than enhancing of its blessings is not an attitude that would be supported in most monastic life.

My prayers for you.

:ehh:
 
Drunken_Master said:
Thank you for your responses. But, sex can become simple satifation of lust. I remember seeing a poll that said 77% of sex between married couples is caused by lust. In that circumstance, where one or both spouses become just tools to satisfy carnal desires, then sex loses it’s meaning. I want to become a monk, and I cannot see how others could be so alright with post-menopausal sex. It just seems wrong to me for some reason. How do we know that menopause isn’t God’s way of saying, “OY! Cut it out you two!”?
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i am eating a piece of freshly homemade pumpkin spice cheesecake with the flakiest graham cracker crust. right now and swilling it down with a cup of freshly brewed coffee, lightly sweetened and mixed with a few tablespoons heavy cream and a touch of cinamon and nutmeg.

does that make me a glutton? i’m eating this because i enjoy it. not for nutrition, not for health. for pure unadulterated TASTE. to satisfy my urge to

as shakespeare said, the play IS the thing.
 
Drunken,

I have to agree with the majority here, sexual desire is a GOOD thing. Within the context of marriage sex without the unitive aspect is just as sinful as sex without the procreative aspect. God made sex feel good, among other reasons, so that we would still want to do it after menopause because the unitive aspect is that important to humanity.

Sexual desire, a longing for your partner that is both emotional and PHYSICAL is just the way God wanted it to be, it only because sinful after menopause when your partner is nothing more than an object, a substitution for masturbation, when you become complete selfish about it. Otherwise…HAVE FUN, it’s what God wanted.
Just the humble opinion of an amatuer.
 
Drunken_Master said:
Please have patience with me; I have trouble articulating my thoughts.

I don’t know anymore. I have always viewed sex as, well, a great thing in moderation. I believe sex is a gift from God when it is between two married adults, open to the possibility of children. However, as I ponder more and more on the subject, I begin to think that a lot of sex is somewhat a form of gluttony, mainly sex without the possibility of children. In my view, God created sex for the purpose of pro-creation. That is the main function of the organs. So when those organs can no longer be used for their main purpose, then using them would be gluttony; in the same way that oral or anal sex is. Am I wrong for holding this opinion? Thank you for any help you can give me.
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I didn’t read the other posts so if I repeat, sorry.

Like food, sex can be abused, as you say, and I don’t think you’re “too conservative” for acknowledging that. The comparison that I’d make is with food, as you did. Eating is for nourishment, but also enjoyment. Sex is for procreation, but God “made it” pleasurable too. We sometimes eat things we don’t need, but if it’s in moderation it isn’t gluttony. Same with sex, in my opinion.
 
I’m old enough to have grown up when the teaching in my neck of the Catholic woods was “God created sex, but the Devil created sexual pleasure.” It’s taken me a long time to work past that, and at times I’m not sure I have, Christopher West (does he have a Mandatum, by the way?) notwithstanding – so in some ways I share the concerns of the OP.

The CCC at 2362 quotes Pius XII as saying “. . . spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.” I see in that statement the approval for spouses to have occasional unitive & procreative relations, but I’m not sure that extends to having “fun” – especially when 2349 points out that “Married people are called to live in conjugal chastity.” Have lots of trouble reconciling “chastity” and “fun.” I was frankly shocked to see in the CCC that Pius XII attributed to the Creator the allowance that spouses should experience pleasure and do nothing evil in seeking it. That would have been a confessable thought back in the day…
 
You are too conservative… I think thats good since you are thinking of becoming a Monk.

For the rest of us… Thank God for relations with my husband… I’ve already gone through menopause (sort of still there) and our sex life is wonderful.
 
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