Perhaps my time here is over

[CarolsDaughter]

I only found this forum a few days ago, while doing an online Google for customs and legends surrounding Holy Week (I was looking up something my late mother had told me years ago).

That online search led me to this forum, where there was a thread about the subject I was researching.

I have to say that, until I came here, I had never once in my 48 yrs had a Roman Catholic proselytize me. That was a major reason why I have always felt far closer to Catholics than to Protestant fundamentalists (many of whom have disgusted me with their blatant attempts to proselytize me, including a “born again” nurse who had the nerve to try to missionize me in the hospital room where my mother lay terminally ill.)

I really thought Catholics were different, nicer, more respectful of the beliefs of others (at least in more modern times, anyway). And with many of you, that is the case.

What Christians don’t realize is, when you shove your beliefs onto others even after they clearly inform you they are not interested (and in fact, can adequately show why they don’t believe in your faith), you really turn people off.

I have worked with devout Catholics in both the pro-life and homeschool communities, and we have always gotten along so well. We have found much common ground on moral issues. And none have ever tried to proselytize me.

I find I am feeling differently about Catholics since being here, and I don’t like it. I want to believe that (most) Catholics are truly decent people who learned their lessons from the days of the Inquisition, and who believe in the American princple of respect for the religions of others.

But I think for me to return to the feelings I had previously, I need to leave this forum. I wish that were not true, but it seems it is.

I have been a countermissionary for almost 30 years. This means I have done volunteer work to get impressionable young Jews out of cults, and yes, out of mainstream Christian and other non-Jewish groups as well. We have had a very high success rate.

But I am also active in the ecumenical mvmt, which means I work to try to find common ground between Jews and Christians. Because of this, I work to help Jews understand Christianity, and to help Christians understand Judaism. There is too much hate and bigotry on BOTH sides, and I work to help end this.

But it won’t end until the “my religion is better than yours” business stops. I doubt that will happen any time soon here, so I have to say Shalom to you all.

Shalom aleichem/pax vobiscum,

Carol’s Daughter

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I have been a countermissionary for almost 30 years.

But it won’t end until the “my religion is better than yours” business stops.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Do you understand what a Jewish countermissionary is? We do NOT try to get Gentiles to leave their nonJewish religions, we simply try to RETURN Jews to the religion of their BIRTHRIGHT.

Jews, unlike Gentiles, have a DIVINE COVENANT with God, which is eternal. It is not the same as a “religion”, though it is seen that way by others.

Gentiles are free to adopt any religion they wish; this is because they do not have a Divine Covenant with God.

The Messiah will not come until all Jews are truly following the Torah God commanded us to follow. If they join pagan and other non-Jewish religions and stop keeping Torah, this will not happen.

If a Gentile TRULY loves the Jewish people as they often claim to, they will encourage all Jews to STAY JEWISH and keep Torah.

 

[Righteousone]

I only found this forum a few days ago, while doing an online Google for customs and legends surrounding Holy Week (I was looking up something my late mother had told me years ago).

That online search led me to this forum, where there was a thread about the subject I was researching.

I have to say that, until I came here, I had never once in my 48 yrs had a Roman Catholic proselytize me. That was a major reason why I have always felt far closer to Catholics than to Protestant fundamentalists (many of whom have disgusted me with their blatant attempts to proselytize me, including a “born again” nurse who had the nerve to try to missionize me in the hospital room where my mother lay terminally ill.)

I really thought Catholics were different, nicer, more respectful of the beliefs of others (at least in more modern times, anyway). And with many of you, that is the case.

What Christians don’t realize is, when you shove your beliefs onto others even after they clearly inform you they are not interested (and in fact, can adequately show why they don’t believe in your faith), you really turn people off.

I have worked with devout Catholics in both the pro-life and homeschool communities, and we have always gotten along so well. We have found much common ground on moral issues. And none have ever tried to proselytize me.

I find I am feeling differently about Catholics since being here, and I don’t like it. I want to believe that (most) Catholics are truly decent people who learned their lessons from the days of the Inquisition, and who believe in the American princple of respect for the religions of others.

But I think for me to return to the feelings I had previously, I need to leave this forum. I wish that were not true, but it seems it is.

I have been a countermissionary for almost 30 years. This means I have done volunteer work to get impressionable young Jews out of cults, and yes, out of mainstream Christian and other non-Jewish groups as well. We have had a very high success rate.

But I am also active in the ecumenical mvmt, which means I work to try to find common ground between Jews and Christians. Because of this, I work to help Jews understand Christianity, and to help Christians understand Judaism. There is too much hate and bigotry on BOTH sides, and I work to help end this.

But it won’t end until the “my religion is better than yours” business stops. I doubt that will happen any time soon here, so I have to say Shalom to you all.

Shalom aleichem/pax vobiscum,

Carol’s Daughter

No disrespect, just a question here. How is it that a Jewish woman can teach about the Catholic faith, since you just said you teach Christianity to others?
The Orthodox faith is good , they just don’t believe in the pope which brings me to ask how you can teach about the pope since he is part of Christianity? An important part?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Do you understand what a Jewish countermissionary is? We do NOT try to get Gentiles to leave their nonJewish religions, we simply try to RETURN Jews to the religion of their BIRTHRIGHT.

Jews, unlike Gentiles, have a DIVINE COVENANT with God, which is eternal. It is not the same as a “religion”, though it is seen that way by others.

Gentiles are free to adopt any religion they wish; this is because they do not have a Divine Covenant with God.

The Messiah will not come until all Jews are truly following the Torah God commanded us to follow. If they join pagan and other non-Jewish religions and stop keeping Torah, this will not happen.

If a Gentile TRULY loves the Jewish people as they often claim to, they will encourage all Jews to STAY JEWISH and keep Torah.

Most Jews I know say Gentiles at least have a divine covenant in Noahide Laws. So right there I suspect what you say.

But yeah I laugh, if you didn’t think your religion without Jesus was better you wouldn’t be scrambling to get Jews away from him.

Not that Judaism or Jews are doing well keeping Jews from becoming total atheists anyway. Maybe you should work on getting Jews back to accept the need for simple belief in God before you worry about getting them away from Jesus.

 

[PaulDupre]

Do you understand what a Jewish countermissionary is? We do NOT try to get Gentiles to leave their nonJewish religions, we simply try to RETURN Jews to the religion of their BIRTHRIGHT.

Jews, unlike Gentiles, have a DIVINE COVENANT with God, which is eternal. It is not the same as a “religion”, though it is seen that way by others.

Gentiles are free to adopt any religion they wish; this is because they do not have a Divine Covenant with God.

So then, “your religion is better than ours”? It’s very hypocritical of you to chastise us for having the same opinion of our faith that you have of yours.

Think about it.

Paul

Paul

 

[LaMar]

There is too much hate and bigotry on BOTH sides, and I work to help end this.

Yesterday I swore I wouldn’t respond to you again, but I have to ask, in context of this message, how it can be reconciled with your earlier articles.

I’m referring specifically to your statement which described Jews in the reform and reconstructionist movements as “too stupid to see what we see”.

I took that personally, for my own reasons (you know why). At the same time, I’m not holier-than-thou, as I’ve done my share of “missionary work” too (years ago, mind you). I’m hoping I misunderstood that comment. If not, it’s a good illustration of the dead end which is fanaticism. The conclusion of one-true-wayism is a devolution into making absolutely everyone, except oneself, an enemy to be feared or conquered.

In any event, go in peace.

LaMar

 

[Tomster]

Do you understand what a Jewish countermissionary is? We do NOT try to get Gentiles to leave their nonJewish religions, we simply try to RETURN Jews to the religion of their BIRTHRIGHT.

Jews, unlike Gentiles, have a DIVINE COVENANT with God, which is eternal. It is not the same as a “religion”, though it is seen that way by others.

Gentiles are free to adopt any religion they wish; this is because they do not have a Divine Covenant with God.

The Messiah will not come until all Jews are truly following the Torah God commanded us to follow. If they join pagan and other non-Jewish religions and stop keeping Torah, this will not happen.

If a Gentile TRULY loves the Jewish people as they often claim to, they will encourage all Jews to STAY JEWISH and keep Torah.

Catholics do have a Divine Covenant with God. He has given us His very life of Grace.

He has risen as He said. Alleluia

 

[jmcrae]

We most certainly do have a Covenant with God; it is the Covenant that was made in the blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross for our sins.

Jesus is the Messiah whom you seek.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

No disrespect, just a question here. How is it that a Jewish woman can teach about the Catholic faith, since you just said you teach Christianity to others?
The Orthodox faith is good , they just don’t believe in the pope which brings me to ask how you can teach about the pope since he is part of Christianity? An important part?

I never said I teach about Christianity. I said I have studied Christianity in order to understand it, and in order to counsel young Jews who get involved in it.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

When Jews say Gentiles have no relationship with God – it doesn’t matter if they are Hindus or whatever – I tend to think they view Gentiles as like dumb animals who don’t need any religion or anything from God.

You should really tell them they should at least follow Noahide, if you don’t want to sound like a Master Race type.

 

[Tomster]

I never said I teach about Christianity. I said I have studied Christianity in order to understand it, and in order to counsel young Jews who get involved in it.

Maybe you do need to take a break from these message boards and delve a little deeper into the Catholic faith in order that you may truly understand it.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Most Jews I know say Gentiles at least have a divine covenant in Noahide Laws. So right there I suspect what you say.

But yeah I laugh, if you didn’t think your religion without Jesus was better you wouldn’t be scrambling to get Jews away from him.

Not that Judaism or Jews are doing well keeping Jews from becoming total atheists anyway. Maybe you should work on getting Jews back to accept the need for simple belief in God before you worry about getting them away from Jesus.

Jews were created by God with a special holiness in order to be able to keep Torah. Unfortunately, many Jews got away from keeping Torah, and that same Divine spark which was instilled in them for keeping Torah, is now channeled into “isms” which are not very Jewish at all…Communism, Socialism, liberalism, zionism, and the like. Conversion to other religions can be grouped in with that as well.

I agree that Jews need to rediscover faith in God. That is something religious Jews work on, which is why groups like Chabad reach out to the nonreligious Jews.

What saddens me are nonreligious Jews who are searching for spirituality, but instead of first discovering their birthright faith, they go lusting after the fleshpots of Egypt, so to speak.

It makes sense to start at home first. Its comparable to a person raised Catholic who is lapsed, and when they seek spirituality, go to Zen Buddhism first.

Why not go home to their first faith and give it a fair chance, before going elsewhere?

 

[vocatio]

CD,
Your objective has been accoplished I assume. Good for you. But you can never approach anyone thinking you can say anything without being called on it. That is just fact, not Catholic or Protestant. Catholics have an obligation to defend the faith. Those of us who’ve been victimized by so called well meaning Protestants have had to climb a very difficult path. It is a tough road. Many of us have lost good friends and family to the proselytizing, even to Messianic Jews.

I always recommend anyone trying to truly learn about Catholicism to avoid these boards. Only someone with an open heart to the truth will patiently approach it. If you bazooka someone they will only put up their guards. The same goes for all of us. No one is other than imperfect here. But your assessment is probabaly correct. This is probably not a place for you if you feel attacked. It’s not always fun, it even makes you angry. Many times it feels unfair. I actually back off with the scripture beating. I’m good at it, but I’m learning not to be Protestant as are many others here. Some of the other Catholics are tired of beig hit over the head. Many of us have non-Catholic famililies that create chaos in our lives.

Be at peace. Praying for you.

Shalom

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Yesterday I swore I wouldn’t respond to you again, but I have to ask, in context of this message, how it can be reconciled with your earlier articles.

I’m referring specifically to your statement which described Jews in the reform and reconstructionist movements as “too stupid to see what we see”.

I took that personally, for my own reasons (you know why). At the same time, I’m not holier-than-thou, as I’ve done my share of “missionary work” too (years ago, mind you). I’m hoping I misunderstood that comment. If not, it’s a good illustration of the dead end which is fanaticism. The conclusion of one-true-wayism is a devolution into making absolutely everyone, except oneself, an enemy to be feared or conquered.

In any event, go in peace.

LaMar

For over 2000 years, the only authentic form of Judaism was what is now called Orthodox Judaism. For 2000 years, the only authentic form of Catholicism was Traditional Catholicism.

Reform represents a break with genuine Judaism. There are many Catholics who feel similarly about Catholicism since Vatican 2.

When I said what I did, I simply stated the truth: in time, the nonreligious/liberal Jews will be a footnote on the pages of history, because the only Jewish groups that are growing exponentially (both in terms of converts and natural growth due to large families) are the Orthodox ones.

Without growth, you die.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Why not go home to their first faith and give it a fair chance, before going elsewhere?

Maybe because Judaism has become so secular saying it’s ok not to observe Torah, or even believe in God. A lot find more spirituality in Christian beliefs.

Maybe you should clean up Judaism first so they have a fit home to come back to before you drag them away from Jesus.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

So then, “your religion is better than ours”? It’s very hypocritical of you to chastise us for having the same opinion of our faith that you have of yours.

Think about it.

Paul

Paul

You misunderstand. I NEVER said Judaism is better than Christianity. I said Judaism is the only religion FOR JEWS.

FOR JEWS. This is because GOD said so. He gave us a Covenant He did not give to anyone else. If you read what you call the Old Testament, you will see this.

Gentiles can worship in any religion they choose. We do not try to convert them. We are not a missionary faith.

Go in peace and worship as you wish. But if you truly love the Jewish people, you will encourage any Jews you know to follow Torah and BE JEWISH. Because that is what God wants for them.

 

[Verisimilitude]

…I have to say that, until I came here, I had never once in my 48 yrs had a Roman Catholic proselytize me. That was a major reason why I have always felt far closer to Catholics …Carol’s Daughter

Hi,
I am not sure why it would seem unusual to have Catholics to be a bit more agressive on a Catholic forum than in your normal daily dealings with Catholics. True, most Catholics do not proselytize ‘strangers’ but this is ‘our’ house if you get my meaning. If I were on a Jewish forum I might expect the same from you but I doubt it would upset me as I would be cognizent of where I was standing. I have not read your post history, but if you are challenging belief systems what do you expect?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Go in peace and worship as you wish. But if you truly love the Jewish people, you will encourage any Jews you know to follow Torah and BE JEWISH. Because that is what God wants for them.

They can observe Torah and believe in Jesus too.

 

[ibkc]

You misunderstand. I NEVER said Judaism is better than Christianity. I said Judaism is the only religion FOR JEWS.

FOR JEWS. This is because GOD said so. He gave us a Covenant He did not give to anyone else. If you read what you call the Old Testament, you will see this.

Gentiles can worship in any religion they choose. We do not try to convert them. We are not a missionary faith.

Go in peace and worship as you wish. But if you truly love the Jewish people, you will encourage any Jews you know to follow Torah and BE JEWISH. Because that is what God wants for them.

Look, you’re telling this to a board full of Catholics, who believe that Christ is the Messiah who instituted the New Covenant. According to our beliefs, it is only right to pray for and work towards the conversions of Jews. You’re basically telling us to not observe our religion because it offends you.