Permanant Deacons in the EF

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Has anyone ever seen an EF celebrated with a permanent Deacon? Either as acolyte or, in a High Mass, as the Deacon or Sub-Deacon? I imagine it’s rare, since the permanent Deaconate is something new, but I’d be interested to hear about it. I also wonder if there are permanent Deacons out there who would be interested in celebrating the EF.

Also, on a related note, how about straw Sub-Deacons? Has anyone seen a High Mass where a lay-man has taken the role of the Sub-Deacon? I know that straw Sub-Deacons are the exception to the exception of the rule, but I’ve wondered if such a practice, correctly used of course, could increase the number of High Masses. Our parish has two priests, so we only have High Masses if another priest visits (otherwise we have a Missa Cantata).

Finally, I say we bring back the minor orders! 🙂
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the permanent Deaconate is something new
Actually it is not. It is a very ancient practice, even described in the Acts of the Apostles, and was forgotten or suppressed for many years, and recently restored by Pope Paul VI.
 
I have never seen a permanent deacon celebrate a Solemn High Mass and I have been at the formerly indult Masses in parishes with permanent deacons. They would be involved in the OF before the EF Mass though.

I have never seen a layman in the role of straw sub-deacon although I know it is a possibility. We have four priests at our chapel so solemn high Masses are not that difficult to arrange and we have them quite often. We have 6 young men from our chapel currently in the seminary and when they are home on vacation, most of our Masses are Solemn High.

I haven’t heard of any of the Traditional Seminaries training permanent deacons. If you consider that normally a traditional transitional deacon studies full-time for 6-7 years before ordination, it would not be as relatively convenient for a layman to attend as the current available OF programs. And the available room at these seminaries is relatively sparse so they would most likely be taking up a priestly spot at this time.

The role of the permanent deacon since the Council was specifically to offload some of the duties of the priest. I am not sure that concept works as well with traditional priests who tend to prefer to be more hands-on in every aspect the parish and of conferring all of the sacraments. It is what I would call the pre-Vatican II paradigm of a parish priest.
 
Also, on a related note, how about straw Sub-Deacons? Has anyone seen a High Mass where a lay-man has taken the role of the Sub-Deacon? I know that straw Sub-Deacons are the exception to the exception of the rule, but I’ve wondered if such a practice, correctly used of course, could increase the number of High Masses. Our parish has two priests, so we only have High Masses if another priest visits (otherwise we have a Missa Cantata).

Finally, I say we bring back the minor orders! 🙂
  • PAX
I have definitely seen straw subdeacons. 😛
 
I’ve never seen a permanent deacon at an EF Mass, but I’ve seen a straw subdeacon a couple of times. One obvious reason for this is that my diocese doesn’t have permanent deacons! I don’t know why this is, just that my diocese has never got round to having them. Whether they are used in other parts of the UK are another matter.
 
This is not a good idea. The custom in the USA in traditional parishes is not to use them except their use may be tolerated as a straw sub deacon.You probaly won’t see them used except at a novus ordo parish that also says the latin mass. Their use is very rare in parishes staffed by traditional order priests.
 
Some trads have a problem with the Church ordaining married men to the diaconate because the tradition of the Latin Church has been to ordain celibate men to the clerical state. They see married deacons as a stepping stone to optional priestly celibacy, so they shy away from utilizing permanent, married deacons (and most permanent deacons are married). To a certain extent, I sympathize with their concerns as it is an innovation from which I see very little benefit and much potential for misrepresentation and utilization for undermining priestly celibacy. However, that is not my decision. I accept the change but do not think it will bear good fruit.

As far as whether or not they can be used in the EF Mass, it is obviously permitted because a deacon is a deacon is a deacon. Marital status does not affect the validity of the sacrament of ordination to the diaconate, and the church does not see an essential difference in the indelible mark the permanent and transitional diaconate make on the soul. Both are valid deacons, and can function as such.
 
The Solemn High Mass aside, a permanent deacon could give the sermon and administer communion at an EF, I would think.
 
Actually it is not. It is a very ancient practice, even described in the Acts of the Apostles, and was forgotten or suppressed for many years, and recently restored by Pope Paul VI.
Yes, I should have said “since it is newly restored and therefore has no previous connection with the EF.”
The Solemn High Mass aside, a permanent deacon could give the sermon and administer communion at an EF, I would think.
I would think so, too, since a Deacon is a Deacon.
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Re the celibacy issue, there is quite an interesting point being made in some circles about the applicability of Canon 277 for Permanent Deacons. In other words, whilst they do not have to be celibate, there is an unresolved question over whether they should be continent. See canonlaw.info/a_deacons.htm for more details.
 
Some trads have a problem with the Church ordaining married men to the diaconate because the tradition of the Latin Church has been to ordain celibate men to the clerical state. They see married deacons as a stepping stone to optional priestly celibacy, so they shy away from utilizing permanent, married deacons (and most permanent deacons are married). To a certain extent, I sympathize with their concerns as it is an innovation from which I see very little benefit and much potential for misrepresentation and utilization for undermining priestly celibacy. However, that is not my decision. I accept the change but do not think it will bear good fruit.

As far as whether or not they can be used in the EF Mass, it is obviously permitted because a deacon is a deacon is a deacon. Marital status does not affect the validity of the sacrament of ordination to the diaconate, and the church does not see an essential difference in the indelible mark the permanent and transitional diaconate make on the soul. Both are valid deacons, and can function as such.
Married clergy is not an innovation.
Re the celibacy issue, there is quite an interesting point being made in some circles about the applicability of Canon 277 for Permanent Deacons. In other words, whilst they do not have to be celibate, there is an unresolved question over whether they should be continent. See canonlaw.info/a_deacons.htm for more details.
While some laity may view this as an unresolved question the Church does not seem to share in that view.
 
Some trads have a problem with the Church ordaining married men to the diaconate because the tradition of the Latin Church has been to ordain celibate men to the clerical state. They see married deacons as a stepping stone to optional priestly celibacy, so they shy away from utilizing permanent, married deacons (and most permanent deacons are married). To a certain extent, I sympathize with their concerns as it is an innovation from which I see very little benefit and much potential for misrepresentation and utilization for undermining priestly celibacy. However, that is not my decision. I accept the change but do not think it will bear good fruit.

As far as whether or not they can be used in the EF Mass, it is obviously permitted because a deacon is a deacon is a deacon. Marital status does not affect the validity of the sacrament of ordination to the diaconate, and the church does not see an essential difference in the indelible mark the permanent and transitional diaconate make on the soul. Both are valid deacons, and can function as such.
The church ordained married men for much of it’s history. As Brother David stated, It is not an innovation.

-Tim-
 
A permanent deacon has every canonical right to serve as a deacon at an EF mass and to deny him because he is a permanent deacon is a violation of those rights. The role of the deacon at mass is rooted in ordination, not his marital state.

A permanent deacon is not less educated than a transitional deacon. This is a myth. They go through four years of theology, whereas the transitional deacon goes to school full-time and can complete the same number of courses in two years or three. The fourth year of theology is rarely a full-time year and you’re usually a deacon by the end of your third year, if you’re a religious. If you’re a secular, it can be earlier. It depends on the bishop.

The permanent diaconate was not reinstated to give parish priests a break. Therefore, the notion that a traditional priest is more hands on than the mainstream priest is offensive to the mainstream priest. It is one thing to love tradition and quite another to elevate one group of priests at the expense of another. The traditionalist parish priest usually has a much smaller population to serve than the mainstream parish priest.

Pope Paul VI said it clearly that the reason that he was reinstating the permanent diaconate is the same reason that Pope Benedict reinstated the EF. The permanent diaconate was never abrogate in the Latin Church. It just fell out of use. What Pope Paul VI added was that married men could be ordained to the permanent diaconate, because there is nothing in dogma or morals that says that marriage is an impediment to Holy Orders.

Marriage is an impediment to the consecrated life, but not to Holy Orders. In the Latin Church the ordination of a married man to the priesthood, without permission, is illicit, not invalid. Whereas the admission of a married man to the brotherhood invalidates the novitiate, which by consequence invalidates the vows.

For some reason, the Latin Church started to treat the diaconate and priesthood as if it were the consecrated life. That’s how we lost our permanent married deacons. Sometimes, things get blended until someone like Pope Paul VI comes in and sorts it out. It was Pope Paul VI who separated the consecrated life from the priesthood.

Pope Paul was one of the best canon lawyers of the 20th century. He saw that the canons related to Holy Orders, as written in 1917, had been influenced by religious orders. Many of the principles that were proper to the consecrated life were applied to the clergy, even the term consecrated… Priests were described as consecrated, when there is no consecration in the rite of ordination, other than the consecration of the hands in order to confect the Eucharist.

Pope Paul VI set out to rectify the mistake that had creeped into the code of 1917 regarding clergy. That’s how we recovered the permanent diaconate in the Latin Church and how we recovered the religious life for men. Both religious life an diaconate had been absorbed into the priesthood.

The result was that the separation between the religious, deacon and priest took place at the same time as the reform of the liturgy. Many people associate the two. They have nothing to do with each other. The liturgy and the other just happen to coincide in time.

This coincidence has given many Trads an idea that these are “NO” ideas. The truth is that they have nothing to do with the reform of the liturgy. If we had kept the Tridentine Form as the OF, we could still have married deacons and we would still be making the proper distinction between clergy and religious.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Actually it is not. It is a very ancient practice, even described in the Acts of the Apostles, and was forgotten or suppressed for many years, and recently restored by Pope Paul VI.
Therefore, it is new. Traditionalists I know see them as simply one more annoying novelty; a proto-priest who will never be one.
 
Therefore, it is new. Traditionalists I know see them as simply one more annoying novelty; a proto-priest who will never be one.
A “proto-priest” is that how you view permanent deacons?

If that’s the vision, it’s a very dysfunctional vision. The diaconate is a vocation of its own and is complete. The deacon does need to be a priest anymore than the priest needs to be a bishop. Each order in the Sacrament of Holy Orders had its place in the Church and in the plan of salvation.

That reminds me of the day when people used to think that brothers were men who were not smart enough to be priests. I was not a brother then, but I often wondered about that, until I started to study to be a brother. I realized what a distorted vision people had.

It’s just as bad to think of the deacon in terms of the priesthood. His place is not determined by how he compares to a priest. His place is determined by the grace of the sacrament itself and his role in the Church’s mission. These are things that we can’t see, but are eternal realities nonetheless.

The very idea of a proto-priest is offensive to the Sacrament of Holy Orders. God help us, if people start to distort the sacraments that way. That which has been abandoned for no logical reason and recovered is not new. It is recovered, not the same as new.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
 
It’s as good as new. When was the last time permanent deacons existed in the Roman Church? Was being a deacon a stage of transition to priesthood before the recent reforms, like being an acolyte?

Personally, I have enough of novelty, archeology and experimentation. I would like a Gregorian mass said according to a missal from the 1920’s, ideally. It’s weird that this seems to be heretical view, when ad-libbed masses in the wider Church are not unusual.

I’m waiting for the scales to fall away from people’s eyes.
 
A “proto-priest” is that how you view permanent deacons?

If that’s the vision, it’s a very dysfunctional vision. The diaconate is a vocation of its own and is complete. The deacon does need to be a priest anymore than the priest needs to be a bishop. Each order in the Sacrament of Holy Orders had its place in the Church and in the plan of salvation.

That reminds me of the day when people used to think that brothers were men who were not smart enough to be priests. I was not a brother then, but I often wondered about that, until I started to study to be a brother. I realized what a distorted vision people had.

It’s just as bad to think of the deacon in terms of the priesthood. His place is not determined by how he compares to a priest. His place is determined by the grace of the sacrament itself and his role in the Church’s mission. These are things that we can’t see, but are eternal realities nonetheless.

The very idea of a proto-priest is offensive to the Sacrament of Holy Orders. God help us, if people start to distort the sacraments that way. That which has been abandoned for no logical reason and recovered is not new. It is recovered, not the same as new.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
I think a whole bunch of catechesis is needed (not just here but within the parishes) as to what the ministry of a permanent deacon is. [BIBLEDRB]Acts 6:1-7[/BIBLEDRB]

BTW, congratulations on the developments in your order!
 
Women Eucharistic Ministers and altar girls are also permitted, but that doesn’t been were going to jump for joy over them.
 
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