Permanent deacons in EF: is it possible?

[utunumsint]

Hi,

Is it possible to be a permanent deacon in the EF? Does the FSSP train permanent deacons?

God bless,
Ut

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Hi,

Is it possible to be a permanent deacon in the EF? Does the FSSP train permanent deacons?

God bless,
Ut

I would imagine so. A deacon may attend an Extraordinary Form Mass, and won’t lose his status thereby, or for the duration of the Mass.

However if he is married there might be a certain amount of opposition from the congregation. There were no permanent deacons between Trent and the Second Vatican Council.

 

[Ignatius2000]

Hi,

Is it possible to be a permanent deacon in the EF? Does the FSSP train permanent deacons?

God bless,
Ut

This has been discussed before, but I’m sure no one will mind bringing it up again.

My answer (from what I recall, there are those who answer differently) is yes, a permanent, married deacon would be more than welcome in the celebration of the EF in the role of Deacon or Sub-Deacon. Why?

1. A Deacon is a Deacon is a Deacon
2. There were permanent Deacons before VII (e.g. St Francis), and they presumably assisted at mass. (Note, not the Mass of the Council of Trent, bit of a sticky issue)
3. Nothing (to my knowledge) is mentioned about the marital status of either the Deacon or Sub-Deacon in the 1962 Rubrics
4. Our permanent Deacons are an asset to the Church and they should be able to assist in any liturgical celebration in the capacities to which they were ordained.

Now, about your second question. I do not know if the FSSP or other organizations like them are training permanent Deacons or not. I would think, however, that if they aren’t currently training them, they are open to training permanent Deacons just as much as they are training Priests who are interested in celebrating the Latin Mass.

Edit: The FSSP claim the membership of 13 Deacons (fssp.org/en/chiffres.htm) . The marital status of these Deacons is unknown to me at this time, but I would be inclined to say that if the FSSP are claiming Permanent, married Deacons as members, then there is no issue with a married Deacon assisting at the Latin Mass.

I hope this helps.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Just as a point of interest, as has been noted, a deacon is a deacon is a deacon. There have even been deacons who were Cardinals between Trent and Vatican II. A deacon (permanent or otherwise) has no role in a low Mass, but may certainly serve in his capacity as a deacon at a high Mass.

For those of you who like history, Cardinal Giacomo Antonelli (1808-1886) served as Secretary of State to Pope Pius IX, but was never ordained a priest. He was the last Cardinal to be a deacon!

Deacon Ed

 

[Sure]

And married roman rite priests can also say the extraordinary form of the Mass!

Someday, you may see an EF High Mass celebrated by all married clergy.

 

[utunumsint]

I would imagine so. A deacon may attend an Extraordinary Form Mass, and won’t lose his status thereby, or for the duration of the Mass.

However if he is married there might be a certain amount of opposition from the congregation. There were no permanent deacons between Trent and the Second Vatican Council.

Thanks for the answer Malcolm. I think you may have been taking my question too literaly. As for the second point, I heard somewhere that Trent actually called for permanent deacons, but this was never implemented.

This has been discussed before, but I’m sure no one will mind bringing it up again.

Well thank you!

My answer (from what I recall, there are those who answer differently) is yes, a permanent, married deacon would be more than welcome in the celebration of the EF in the role of Deacon or Sub-Deacon. Why?

1. A Deacon is a Deacon is a Deacon

Granted, granted, and granted. But I’m sure there are those who might see this as somewhat untraditional? Do you know of any strong opposition to the idea?

1. There were permanent Deacons before VII (e.g. St Francis), and they presumably assisted at mass. (Note, not the Mass of the Council of Trent, bit of a sticky issue)

I also believe there were permanent deacons in the early church. But I’m thinking more along the lines of the EF.

1. Nothing (to my knowledge) is mentioned about the marital status of either the Deacon or Sub-Deacon in the 1962 Rubrics

Interesting. I suppose it would have been assumed back in the day, but good point.

1. Our permanent Deacons are an asset to the Church and they should be able to assist in any liturgical celebration in the capacities to which they were ordained.

Agreed.

Now, about your second question. I do not know if the FSSP or other organizations like them are training permanent Deacons or not. I would think, however, that if they aren’t currently training them, they are open to training permanent Deacons just as much as they are training Priests who are interested in celebrating the Latin Mass.

Many in principle would, I suppose. But I’ve noticed a certain reluctance to embrace change in certain groups who attend the EF. Call me perceptive.

Edit: The FSSP claim the membership of 13 Deacons (fssp.org/en/chiffres.htm) . The marital status of these Deacons is unknown to me at this time, but I would be inclined to say that if the FSSP are claiming Permanent, married Deacons as members, then there is no issue with a married Deacon assisting at the Latin Mass.

I hope this helps.

I had a deacon at my parish (FSSP), but it was only considered an interim step towards the priesthood, at least in his case.

Thank you for your response.

God bless,
Ut

 

[utunumsint]

Just as a point of interest, as has been noted, a deacon is a deacon is a deacon. There have even been deacons who were Cardinals between Trent and Vatican II. A deacon (permanent or otherwise) has no role in a low Mass, but may certainly serve in his capacity as a deacon at a high Mass.

For those of you who like history, Cardinal Giacomo Antonelli (1808-1886) served as Secretary of State to Pope Pius IX, but was never ordained a priest. He was the last Cardinal to be a deacon!

Deacon Ed

Thanks for the information Deacon Ed. I can understand why the deacon has no role to play in the low mass since, as far as I know, only one priest celebrates.

Would a deacon be permitted to say the homily?

God bless,
Ut

 

[Chatter163]

The FSSP claim the membership of 13 Deacons (fssp.org/en/chiffres.htm) . The marital status of these Deacons is unknown to me at this time, but I would be inclined to say that if the FSSP are claiming Permanent, married Deacons as members, then there is no issue with a married Deacon assisting at the Latin Mass.

The link is a year old, which means that the status is outdated. The FSSP does not “claim Permanent, married Deacons as members.” They merely indicated one year ago on their website that at the time they had thirteen deacons as members. All of these were transitional, celibate deacons. The number is comparable this year.

 

[utunumsint]

The link is a year old, which means that the status is outdated. The FSSP does not “claim Permanent, married Deacons as members.” They merely indicated one year ago on their website that at the time they had thirteen deacons as members. All of these were transitional, celibate deacons. The number is comparable this year.

I seem to remember seeing that statistic a few years ago when I looked at this page. I would think for the FSSP, there would have to be some kind of explicit change for something like this to occur.

However, I am thinking that for OF priests and permanent deacons who want to be trainned in the EF, there would be no problem. Correct?

God bless,
Ut

 

[BobP123]

A deacon (permanent or otherwise) has no role in a low Mass, but may certainly serve in his capacity as a deacon at a high Mass.

In the Chicago EF Masses, I see permanent deacons distributing communion in both the Low and High Mass without any problems.

 

[Sure]

In the Chicago EF Masses, I see permanent deacons distributing communion in both the Low and High Mass without any problems.

In the low Mass, does the deacon just vest as a deacon and fulfill the role of a server, or does he come out at Communion time to assist with the distribution?

 

[BobP123]

In the low Mass, does the deacon just vest as a deacon and fulfill the role of a server, or does he come out at Communion time to assist with the distribution?

At one of the Masses (at St. John Vianney) there are simultaneous Novus Ordo and crypt TL Masses. I believe the deacon assists at both, taking the excess TLM Hosts back to the tabernacle upstairs in his humeral veil. At St. John Cantius the deacon assists in the distribution with other priests and deacons, though I’ve seen the deacons serving in the Solemn High Mass as well.

I believe the role of the deacon will become more important as the Extraordinary Form becomes more widespread.

 

[kleary]

Permanent Deacons in the Ef…

Legally yes. Liked- no.

Traditionalists do not like the restoration of the permanent diaconate because they grew up with the transitional deaconate only.

At my parish a permanent Deacon is not allowed to assist in the capacity of Deacon at a Solemn Mass…in order to not offend the sensibilities of the faithful. However at other places the EF is offered they do allow permanent Deacons to assist.

I personally have no problem with Permanent Deacons in the EF. I mean they are validly ordained Deacons. In the words of my pastor, “It would be great to allow them to assist…we could have Solemn Mass every Sunday.”

I would say that if the TLM comes to a parish that does not have the TLM there yet…no problem with a permanent Deacon assisting. It all depends on the community that has the EF- whether the pastor will allow it or not.

Legally- yes. Permanent Deacons are allowed to assist in the capacity of Deacon at Solemn Mass in the EF. But the FSSP will not take you in to train you. You should seek training from a priest who is willing to allow you to assist at the EF as Deacon. There are a few out there from what I hear and most likely now even more since the MP was released.

Ken

 

[Ignatius2000]

Permanent Deacons in the Ef…

Legally yes. Liked- no.

Traditionalists do not like the restoration of the permanent diaconate because they grew up with the transitional diaconate only.
snip
Ken

I’m a young’un at the ripe old age of 21, so maybe thats why I have a hard time giving much weight to the other side of the argument because I grew up with married Deacons and I think that they are a great asset to the Church and the lives of the faithful. Just because they’re married should be no obstacle to allowing them access to one of the greatest treasures of the Church when they are otherwise able.

Getting back to the FSSP, I’ve heard that they (and some other traditional societies who’s abbreviations escape me at the moment) have been graciously training parish Priests who are interested in learning how to say the EF, but have they also extended this training to the permanent Deacons (married or not)? I guess this is a reiteration of the OP, but I guess I too would like to know.

 

[utunumsint]

Legally- yes. Permanent Deacons are allowed to assist in the capacity of Deacon at Solemn Mass in the EF. But the FSSP will not take you in to train you. You should seek training from a priest who is willing to allow you to assist at the EF as Deacon. There are a few out there from what I hear and most likely now even more since the MP was released.

Ken

Of course, I would have to be a deacon first. But I don’t have that all important and primary requirement: my wife’s concent.

Thanks for this information. Thanks to everyone.

God bless,
Ut

 

[UKcatholicGuy]

E.f.? O.f.? L.o.l.!

 

[bpbasilphx]

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This ONLY applies to the Latin Church.

There ere permanent deacons in Eastern Churches, but in and out of union with Rome.

 

[AJV]

There were no permanent deacons between Trent and the Second Vatican Council.

There were a few in the Latin Church but they were required to be celibate and not marry.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Thanks for the information Deacon Ed. I can understand why the deacon has no role to play in the low mass since, as far as I know, only one priest celebrates.

Would a deacon be permitted to say the homily?

God bless,
Ut

Technically, yes, he could.

Deacon Ed

 

[Sure]

Permanent Deacons in the Ef…

Legally yes. Liked- no.

Traditionalists do not like the restoration of the permanent diaconate because they grew up with the transitional deaconate only.

At my parish a permanent Deacon is not allowed to assist in the capacity of Deacon at a Solemn Mass…in order to not offend the sensibilities of the faithful. However at other places the EF is offered they do allow permanent Deacons to assist.

I personally have no problem with Permanent Deacons in the EF. I mean they are validly ordained Deacons. In the words of my pastor, “It would be great to allow them to assist…we could have Solemn Mass every Sunday.”

I would say that if the TLM comes to a parish that does not have the TLM there yet…no problem with a permanent Deacon assisting. It all depends on the community that has the EF- whether the pastor will allow it or not.

Legally- yes. Permanent Deacons are allowed to assist in the capacity of Deacon at Solemn Mass in the EF. But the FSSP will not take you in to train you. You should seek training from a priest who is willing to allow you to assist at the EF as Deacon. There are a few out there from what I hear and most likely now even more since the MP was released.

Ken

Why would the pastor yield to the will of the congregation that is obviously so misguided? This seems like it would be a good teaching moment to inform the congregation that the goal is not to “time-travel” back to 1962, but rather, celebrate the traditional liturgy of the Church today, here and now. This is not to say that we should begin adapting the missal of 1962, but since deacons today are sometimes married and the missal details the role of the deacon, well, put it together. We should not take away from the missal, but we shouldn’t “add” restrictions to it either.