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Deacontomb
Guest
Thank you for your prayers Titus. Sorry if I upset you.
- Status
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Paenitens
Guest
Stunning.
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Genesis315
Guest
Dear Deacontomb,
When you became a deacon, you chose to make the gift and sacrifice of your whole self, and you made it to serve God and His people. It is definitely difficult to bear the Cross of the death of a spouse, no doubt. But you can use that Cross as a source of grace from whence you draw the strength to serve the Lord and His people even more deeply and devotedly than before. If you unite your suffering in service to Our Lord with His Passion, you will also rise with Him in His glory.
God has placed you in the situation you are in for a reason and with great love. I am sure you have served him well until now and so He is giving you the opportunity to serve Him even more devotedly (cf. 1 Cor. 7:32). Make the best of it in faith, rather than allowing your Cross to become a source of bitterness and contempt which destroy, rather than increase, grace in the soul.
When you became a deacon, you chose to make the gift and sacrifice of your whole self, and you made it to serve God and His people. It is definitely difficult to bear the Cross of the death of a spouse, no doubt. But you can use that Cross as a source of grace from whence you draw the strength to serve the Lord and His people even more deeply and devotedly than before. If you unite your suffering in service to Our Lord with His Passion, you will also rise with Him in His glory.
God has placed you in the situation you are in for a reason and with great love. I am sure you have served him well until now and so He is giving you the opportunity to serve Him even more devotedly (cf. 1 Cor. 7:32). Make the best of it in faith, rather than allowing your Cross to become a source of bitterness and contempt which destroy, rather than increase, grace in the soul.
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Dicerning
Guest
I know of one deacon that was granted permission. (from a very conservative bishop even) because he was of such value to the diocese and he had small children. FWIH he told the bishop that family comes first and if he had to raise his children alone then the church needs to take a back seat until they are raised.
Which is EXACTLY what deacons are told. They are told that they cannot re-marry after their spouses death. HOWEVER they are also told that Family Fisrt, JOb second and Diaconal Duties Third.
Which is EXACTLY what deacons are told. They are told that they cannot re-marry after their spouses death. HOWEVER they are also told that Family Fisrt, JOb second and Diaconal Duties Third.
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ineedofanswers
Guest
Question …what about a permenant deacon who was married 24 years never desired a divorce…but his former wife obtained a divorce and annullment. Why should this man have to live as a celibate, instead of beiing able to marry a christian women. There doesnt seem to be justice or compassion for such a man.
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mountainman99
Guest
I’m so afraid of chiming in here because I will probably come across as having no compassion. The simple answer to your question and the original posters is because that’s what they signed up for. When you become a deacon, you know what you’re committing yourself to. You know that no matter what happens, once you receive holy orders, you cannot receive the sacrament of marriage without a rare exception. If you approach anything hoping to follow the exception, not the rule, you’re heart is in the wrong place. That’s like getting married and hoping to get an annulment once your wife isn’t as attractive as she was in her youth. If a candidate can’t handle the idea of being celibate, heaven forbid something happen to their spouse, then they should not pursue the diaconate. Where is the obedience and faithfulness? I’m not saying it’s not a challenge, but deacons are called to be servants, humble servants like Christ. Humility and obedience are what subject them to the promises they make when they are ordained. To not accept those promises is almost like rejecting the Church’s authority. I have a horrible time understanding why people want to change the diaconate and priesthood, instead of submitting their wills to the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth.
A great example of humility and obedience: Padre Pio said, “If my superiors ordered me to jump out of the window, I would not argue. I would jump.”
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ineedofanswers
Guest
Your chiming in is welcomed…and i do understand what you are stating…at the time of my ordination i believed in the committment to be servant no matter what. I have lived in this state for the last seven years…My wife left for reasons that were her own. Not long after my ordination she made the decision to leave the marriage…( she had an affair). I have forgiven her and I asked for a leave of absence which lasted 4 yrs. I have returned to serving in the ministry…but i still experience lonliness.and economic hardship. I know God is with me and the He loves me. I lived in relationship for 24 years and i find the celibate life to be unfullfiling…I live in my home alone with all the cares and challenges that come with living in a secular environment. I am not a preist living in a parish where he recieves food and shelter and the warmth of the community. The single life has proven to be very diffcult. I am not convinced that God would have me living without a help mate…It is not good for man to be alone, as we read in Genises. Or as the apostle Paul said …I wish that all could live as i do…But if some cannot let them take a wife (Just paraphrasing)…Jesus suffered and died so that we may have life and life in abundance.
Where is the justice and compassion and Love in having a Man live by himself…God has never abandoned me…God has seen me through a nightmare (Divorce) and all I desire is to live a moral life. I realize that without all the details its hard to really see into my situation. I thank you for your sincere words…
Where is the justice and compassion and Love in having a Man live by himself…God has never abandoned me…God has seen me through a nightmare (Divorce) and all I desire is to live a moral life. I realize that without all the details its hard to really see into my situation. I thank you for your sincere words…
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plato3
Guest
Mtn.man makes a good point. We have not had a deacon in our diocese petition for re-marriage. We have had one permanet deacon elevated to the priesthood a while after his wife died. We knew what we were getting into. We actually had to sign a paper stating that we understood that after ordination-there could be no further marriages as ordination was an impediment to marriage. If my wife were to die before me-God forbid-I would make a request to live at a large parish where I would pay my own way-insurance,food,rent Etc. and assist as a deacon with the baptisms, prison ministry Etc. as I am doing now.
God bless
God bless
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mountainman99
Guest
I think ineedofanswers really benefited from the companionship of marriage and really feels like his opportunity to live as a married deacon was unfairly cut short. It’s a sad situation when a woman can support a man to become a deacon and then go have an affair. That kind of deception has an awful sting to it, and it’s amazing to hear that ineedofanswers endured that trial and has returned to ministry. That’s a great story of a man not giving up on God even through deep anguish.
That being said, the part that I still struggle with in his statement is the thought that God doesn’t want him to be alone. Every saint I’ve read about treated the authority of the Church as the authority of God. Submitting one’s will to that of their superiors is equivalent to submitting one’s will to that of the Lord. I’m not saying it’s easy to do, but we have to trust in the authority of the Church even if it causes us anguish. Though, if ineedofanswers feels that God doesn’t want him to be alone, and the Lord truly doesn’t, then I see no harm in asking the bishop for permission to remarry. The bishop’s answer would be the Lord’s answer. I see no problem in asking, so long as you honor the answer.
That being said, the part that I still struggle with in his statement is the thought that God doesn’t want him to be alone. Every saint I’ve read about treated the authority of the Church as the authority of God. Submitting one’s will to that of their superiors is equivalent to submitting one’s will to that of the Lord. I’m not saying it’s easy to do, but we have to trust in the authority of the Church even if it causes us anguish. Though, if ineedofanswers feels that God doesn’t want him to be alone, and the Lord truly doesn’t, then I see no harm in asking the bishop for permission to remarry. The bishop’s answer would be the Lord’s answer. I see no problem in asking, so long as you honor the answer.
I reread this post from ineedofanswers and it occured to me that as Christians, we are tasked to deliver compassion and justice to the world, but that does not entitle us to receive it ourselves. In fact, more often Christians probably suffer for it. I think it’s important to try and understand why God gives us such trials, and accept them as crosses. I just heard Scott Hahn say last night how Jesus refers to our suffering as crosses to show us that there is merit and meaning to our suffering. How difficult it is to pick up those crosses, but how amazing is it that Christ sees our suffering as He saw His own!
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plato3
Guest
St Theresa said-those who suffer most are closest to the Lord.
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mountainman99
Guest
Beautifully put!
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diamond_girl
Guest
This is a very near and dear to my heart subject. Before my husband was ordained we were interviewed and asked some questions. I was then asked if I had any questions or comments. Well…of course I did! I actually made my concern that if I passed away young, before my husband, my concern for him being alone.
I was told exactly what many Catholics would say, that he knew this before he went into the Deactican.
I do not agree…my husband said he could never find someone else to love so IF this should happen he wouldn’t have to worry about it. I quickly lashed “you don’t know that”. Life isn’t always how we plan it. We actually had two deacons who lost their wives and never intended to remarry. However both found love again. One was given a dispensation and is now happily married and still a deacon. The other was not given a dispensation and chose to marry and leave his orders…shame! I understand it is very hard to be granted a dispensation and the shame of it is the church will lose many good deacons due to the death of a spouse and finding a new unexpected life with a new potential spouse. A potential spouse who just may support her husband’s dedication to his vocation and share in his Ministries. I hope those who defend the right for a widowed deacon not to re marry see my point! I
MY OPINION-, if a Deacon should lose his wife and wish to re marry, it has to be done within the guild lines of the church, obviously! But he is not a priest and I honestly feel this is not fair. I do understand the vow of celabecy a deacon takes, but if the man is married before he takes his vows he should be allowed to marry again, within the church and retake the vow for THIS marriage. Mind you, this is my opinion! He is NOT a priest, but a married man, a lay minister!
Now for the whole divorce issue…that is a very, very difficult one but in my opinion- IF the Deacon was not at fault and his wife clearly left, cheated or was at fault, the deacon should be grated an annulment and be still be allowed to be a deacon and again, if he chooses to re marry do so. However IF the deacon cheated or was at fault then he loses his faculties!
Life isn’t always how we plan it and sometimes it’s not our fault. I hope people can stop judging us based on what is said to be vocations, vows, orders etc. because the shame of it is the church is having a hard time getting men to follow their calling or they simply chose not to hear it…ordained deacons hear the call and take the bat, it’s a shame they may have to be called out!
A Deacon’s Wife (husband ordained 2006 at 44 years old)
I know many will disagree with how I feel but life isn’t always how we plan it. And sometimes we don’t expect to be in a situation we didn’t plan for and is not our fault! I know my husband signed on and knew what he was getting into and I respect that. I do not agree though.
I have to say I agreed only because I know he was called and he has a right to be a deacon. This is his decision IF he is ever in the situation he has to deal with it, but I feel they should have a choice.
I was told exactly what many Catholics would say, that he knew this before he went into the Deactican.
I do not agree…my husband said he could never find someone else to love so IF this should happen he wouldn’t have to worry about it. I quickly lashed “you don’t know that”. Life isn’t always how we plan it. We actually had two deacons who lost their wives and never intended to remarry. However both found love again. One was given a dispensation and is now happily married and still a deacon. The other was not given a dispensation and chose to marry and leave his orders…shame! I understand it is very hard to be granted a dispensation and the shame of it is the church will lose many good deacons due to the death of a spouse and finding a new unexpected life with a new potential spouse. A potential spouse who just may support her husband’s dedication to his vocation and share in his Ministries. I hope those who defend the right for a widowed deacon not to re marry see my point! I
MY OPINION-, if a Deacon should lose his wife and wish to re marry, it has to be done within the guild lines of the church, obviously! But he is not a priest and I honestly feel this is not fair. I do understand the vow of celabecy a deacon takes, but if the man is married before he takes his vows he should be allowed to marry again, within the church and retake the vow for THIS marriage. Mind you, this is my opinion! He is NOT a priest, but a married man, a lay minister!
Now for the whole divorce issue…that is a very, very difficult one but in my opinion- IF the Deacon was not at fault and his wife clearly left, cheated or was at fault, the deacon should be grated an annulment and be still be allowed to be a deacon and again, if he chooses to re marry do so. However IF the deacon cheated or was at fault then he loses his faculties!
Life isn’t always how we plan it and sometimes it’s not our fault. I hope people can stop judging us based on what is said to be vocations, vows, orders etc. because the shame of it is the church is having a hard time getting men to follow their calling or they simply chose not to hear it…ordained deacons hear the call and take the bat, it’s a shame they may have to be called out!
A Deacon’s Wife (husband ordained 2006 at 44 years old)
I know many will disagree with how I feel but life isn’t always how we plan it. And sometimes we don’t expect to be in a situation we didn’t plan for and is not our fault! I know my husband signed on and knew what he was getting into and I respect that. I do not agree though.
I have to say I agreed only because I know he was called and he has a right to be a deacon. This is his decision IF he is ever in the situation he has to deal with it, but I feel they should have a choice.
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Young_Thinker
Guest
Welcome to the priest’s world. Having realized my call to priesthood(and apparently to religious life), I already(while being still in college) face a lot of frustration involving celibacy. And I am sure that I am not alone with this problem. Also, I have no intention of adhering to the Byzantine Rite just so that I can marry and be ordained as a secular priest(who, like permanent deacons in the Latin Rite, cannot marry after ordination).
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Young_Thinker
Guest
I, for one, do not believe in annulments being given like candy, just because divorce is recognized by the state. Also, a priest with moral(but not criminally perverse) failings is not(and should not be; King David was given a second chance) disempowered as a priest. So, why should be different for a deacon?
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Michael_Saint
Guest
After debating whether or not to respond to this post - because I do not want to get bogged down in another argument with Lapey and because I have other writings that should take precedence over this exchange - I have nonetheless decided to give in and respond.
- As I told Lapey in our personal correspondence, every deacon says he could not see himself remarrying another woman if his wife was to die. That’s easy to say when you’re married, but after a few years of celibacy, a person’s tune changes pretty quickly. As other (married) posters have said on these forums, once you have experienced sexual pleasure and the other pleasures associated with marriage, it’s pretty tough to Not be married or sexually active. Yes, it’s been done by others, but by way of exception.
- It should be hard (if not impossible) to get a dispensation. Deacons make a promise to God not to remarry if their wives die. Promises should be honoured. The Church should not lose any good deacons - they should be faithful to their promise and continue to minister.
- I do not think you understand the “promise” of celibacy a deacon takes simply based on what you are saying here. You seem to first of all have a skewed or deficient view on the call to celibacy - the beauty of that call, that one does not lose anything but exchanges a human spouse for a heavenly spouse, etc. It seems that in diaconate training, there is little to nothing said about the beauties and glories of celibacy.
- He is not a “lay minister” - he is “ordained”. This is another proof to me that there is something deficient in what he was taught and how he was formed (which you took part in, correct?)
- As they say, “dirt happens” in life. Some men who fought in the war had injuries which would not allow them to have sexual intercourse. Some men make promises to God that require them to be celibate a little earlier than they had hoped. I think the former has as much reason to say “it’s not fair” as the latter, but that is where God steps in with his Providential will and grace and turns evil to good. It’s just like people who say abortion should be allowed in the case of rape and incest because it was not the mother’s fault. But that doesn’t change the fact that there is a baby, a human being, in the womb. And the fact that your wife cheated on you and left you (and I don’t buy that the man was perfect in that situation - many deacons’ wives cheat on them after they start putting their work in the Church over their duties as husbands and fathers and neglect their families) still does not change the fact you made a promise.
- Exactly - and when it’s not our fault, we make the best of the situation we find ourselves in (which includes having made a promise of celibacy). And God is there with His grace to help us through it and to be faithful.
- There is much to say here. I will just say this: the solution to the priest shortage is not to make the rules laxer. Vatican II teaches this.
- And I will conclude by saying all of this confirms me in my disapproval of ordination of men that young (44) to the diaconate.
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mountainman99
Guest
Michael Saint,
Thanks for your post! I think you did an excellent job of breaking down the issue. I was right there with you until you got to number 8. I don’t think this has anything to do with age. I think it has more to do with not understanding holy orders, celibacy, and obedience. Would you try to explain this to me further? I mean, I just don’t get it. St. Therese pursued her vocation at 15. Mary was quite young, in her early teens, when she had Jesus. St. Francis was a deacon and he was 44 or 45 when he died. All of these people are revered by our church, and yet they were young. Well, St. Francis wasn’t, but he’s tied to the 44 being too young statement you made. Maybe you were saying 44 for a **married **deacon is too young? Truly, I think it comes down to what is in a person’s heart. I mean, if a deacon is truly obedient to the church’s teachings, what does age have to do with it? With any calling, if obedience is there, the vocation will be lived out properly. I’ve seen so many priests “leave” to get married because they weren’t properly formed, and maybe that’s what is happening with some of our deacons. I’m just not sure about making this an issue with age as opposed to what I see as the issue, which is obedience, trust, and faithfulness to our mother Church.
We are probably more in agreement on this than not, by the way, and I am not upset or anything by point number 8. I actually loved reading your post because I was saying, yes, yes, yes… I do feel however, that it’s not fair statement for those of us that are truly obedient and willing to follow God’s call. I want to be judged by what’s in my heart, not by how many times I’ve spun around the sun.
Thanks!
Thanks for your post! I think you did an excellent job of breaking down the issue. I was right there with you until you got to number 8. I don’t think this has anything to do with age. I think it has more to do with not understanding holy orders, celibacy, and obedience. Would you try to explain this to me further? I mean, I just don’t get it. St. Therese pursued her vocation at 15. Mary was quite young, in her early teens, when she had Jesus. St. Francis was a deacon and he was 44 or 45 when he died. All of these people are revered by our church, and yet they were young. Well, St. Francis wasn’t, but he’s tied to the 44 being too young statement you made. Maybe you were saying 44 for a **married **deacon is too young? Truly, I think it comes down to what is in a person’s heart. I mean, if a deacon is truly obedient to the church’s teachings, what does age have to do with it? With any calling, if obedience is there, the vocation will be lived out properly. I’ve seen so many priests “leave” to get married because they weren’t properly formed, and maybe that’s what is happening with some of our deacons. I’m just not sure about making this an issue with age as opposed to what I see as the issue, which is obedience, trust, and faithfulness to our mother Church.
We are probably more in agreement on this than not, by the way, and I am not upset or anything by point number 8. I actually loved reading your post because I was saying, yes, yes, yes… I do feel however, that it’s not fair statement for those of us that are truly obedient and willing to follow God’s call. I want to be judged by what’s in my heart, not by how many times I’ve spun around the sun.
Thanks!
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darryld
Guest
I can understand feeling lonely by the loss of a spouse through death or divorce. Perhaps there are other ways to address this loss. Why do you still live alone? Talk to your priest or bishop about the possibility of living in the rectory with the priest(s). Find another widowed deacon and share a residence. You are an ordained cleric within the church. You have served it well and faithfully. Ask them for help and advice as you struggle with this issue.
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Young_Thinker
Guest
I am just curious; are there many widowed deacons who become priests? To me, since they are already ordained, that would seem to be a logical next step.
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Michael_Saint
Guest
mountainman, thank you for your compliments. What I say about the diaconate is what many Catholics have “felt” for years but just can’t formulate or put their finger on. I will be soon writing a series of articles addressing all this, and I don’t think many in the Church will like it. But I am not writing to convince everyone, I am writing to convince as many as will listen and openly consider.
You are correct - I meant married men, especially those with young children. The Church allows unmarried men to be ordained to the diaconate as young as 25 - and I say AMEN to that!
As to what is in a person’s heart, it is also important what is in a person’s head. God gave us reason, common sense, so that we could properly discern. We can’t make decisions based on feelings. If I am married with little children, my reason will tell me that taking on the diaconate will deprive them of important daddy-time and parental involvement. So the mind in this case informs me as a person that my heart is prompting me to do something that is not God’s will. Satan often manipulates our feelings, prompts our hearts, and leads us astray that way.
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ineedofanswers
Guest
Hello again!.
Thank you all! everyone of you! I am the one who lost his wife to an affair. The churches teaching on this is clear.but having said that I will offer that these situations, the death of a spouse when the couple is still young, the divorced deacon…these are realities, tragic but real. I like what was offered here about King David. Diamond Girl your heart is full of love. Your deacon husband is truly blessed. Mountain Man you articulate the teaching of the Church very well. darryld I think you hit on something that is close to my situation.
A permanent deacon should have the support of his wife. Its what will enable him to serve the community. It is her sacfrifice that enables the Deacon to perform his duties.
After my spouse abandoned me, the home and the bills, I was the one who has carried the load of what 2 people had promised to build together in marriage. I thank God every day that have been able to hold on to the roof over my head. God has never abandoned me. However 6 years into this life that includes for years that I asked for a leave of absence from ministry. Darryld your suggestion is a good one but not one available to me.
I had said in a prior post this not just about sexuality. I do struggle with being alone and the struggle of living without a spouse, however there is another issue. Yes the Church may or may not grant a dispensation for a Deacon with small children, not only do the children need a mother but for most in this economy they need to incomes to suport the chidren and themselves. Which brings me to my situation I have been and continue to experience hardship economically. The times are tough for everyone even the children of God. and yes I have seen the hand of God in my situation, because I could of lost my mind in the divorce, it was the groundskeeper at the church who is now with my ex spouse. The pain of having studied and prayed for so long, just to deal with all this when i was still freshly ordained. My wife was able to conceal her motives and actions very well while i studied to be a Deacon. So Yes i am blessed every time I minister to families through baptism, marriages and funerals. and yes i cannot live without the Eucharist.
But my personal life, my finances, my own work as a child mental health counselor suffer as a result of me economic situation. I keep praying and hoping that God will show me his will. I am not a priest in a rectory with most if not all of his personal needs are met, so that he can fully give his life to ministry. I know in my heart that I may have to make some very serious decisions at some point as I get older. I am 47 right now. The code of cannon law addresses the issue of ordained ministers. Yes it does. but if any of you ever meet a deacon in a situation like mine. show him love, ask him if he has enough to eat or if his house is in good repair, ask him if he has enough gas to make it through the week or if he would like to come over for dinner.You just might have the opportunity to be Jesus to that Deacon.
The Church that i have loved with all my heart throughout my life tries so hard to make sure that all the rubrics are followed and that is great. But When Jesus the just judge, when the bridegroom comes for his church He will judge us by how much of Gods love we have in our hearts.
Let us becareful…Law and Spirit…what did Jesus teach about the pharisees and the law…and Paul about the Law…
Celibacy is a Gift…Mathew 19 read verse 12 especially…read prayerfully.
I believe that i have not been granted (given this beautiful gift)
I thank God for this forum and for all of you and your sharing!
Peace be with you…
Thank you all! everyone of you! I am the one who lost his wife to an affair. The churches teaching on this is clear.but having said that I will offer that these situations, the death of a spouse when the couple is still young, the divorced deacon…these are realities, tragic but real. I like what was offered here about King David. Diamond Girl your heart is full of love. Your deacon husband is truly blessed. Mountain Man you articulate the teaching of the Church very well. darryld I think you hit on something that is close to my situation.
A permanent deacon should have the support of his wife. Its what will enable him to serve the community. It is her sacfrifice that enables the Deacon to perform his duties.
After my spouse abandoned me, the home and the bills, I was the one who has carried the load of what 2 people had promised to build together in marriage. I thank God every day that have been able to hold on to the roof over my head. God has never abandoned me. However 6 years into this life that includes for years that I asked for a leave of absence from ministry. Darryld your suggestion is a good one but not one available to me.
I had said in a prior post this not just about sexuality. I do struggle with being alone and the struggle of living without a spouse, however there is another issue. Yes the Church may or may not grant a dispensation for a Deacon with small children, not only do the children need a mother but for most in this economy they need to incomes to suport the chidren and themselves. Which brings me to my situation I have been and continue to experience hardship economically. The times are tough for everyone even the children of God. and yes I have seen the hand of God in my situation, because I could of lost my mind in the divorce, it was the groundskeeper at the church who is now with my ex spouse. The pain of having studied and prayed for so long, just to deal with all this when i was still freshly ordained. My wife was able to conceal her motives and actions very well while i studied to be a Deacon. So Yes i am blessed every time I minister to families through baptism, marriages and funerals. and yes i cannot live without the Eucharist.
But my personal life, my finances, my own work as a child mental health counselor suffer as a result of me economic situation. I keep praying and hoping that God will show me his will. I am not a priest in a rectory with most if not all of his personal needs are met, so that he can fully give his life to ministry. I know in my heart that I may have to make some very serious decisions at some point as I get older. I am 47 right now. The code of cannon law addresses the issue of ordained ministers. Yes it does. but if any of you ever meet a deacon in a situation like mine. show him love, ask him if he has enough to eat or if his house is in good repair, ask him if he has enough gas to make it through the week or if he would like to come over for dinner.You just might have the opportunity to be Jesus to that Deacon.
The Church that i have loved with all my heart throughout my life tries so hard to make sure that all the rubrics are followed and that is great. But When Jesus the just judge, when the bridegroom comes for his church He will judge us by how much of Gods love we have in our hearts.
Let us becareful…Law and Spirit…what did Jesus teach about the pharisees and the law…and Paul about the Law…
Celibacy is a Gift…Mathew 19 read verse 12 especially…read prayerfully.
I believe that i have not been granted (given this beautiful gift)
I thank God for this forum and for all of you and your sharing!
Peace be with you…
- Status