Permanent diaconate in a latin-mass parish?

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I have been watching Deacon Harold Burke Sivers show on EWTN regarding the permanent deacon/diaconate. I understand this has been a fairly recent trend, sparked by Vatican II. Do permanent deacons exist in a tridentine/traditional parish?
 
I have been watching Deacon Harold Burke Sivers show on EWTN regarding the permanent deacon/diaconate. I understand this has been a fairly recent trend, sparked by Vatican II. Do permanent deacons exist in a tridentine/traditional parish?
Can they? Yes. Do they? I know some communities have been resistant to the idea, despite the fact it would make high Mass so much easier. 🤷
 
Someone from Atlanta could chime in, but IIRC they have permanent deacons who serve their community.
 
I have been watching Deacon Harold Burke Sivers show on EWTN regarding the permanent deacon/diaconate. I understand this has been a fairly recent trend, sparked by Vatican II. Do permanent deacons exist in a tridentine/traditional parish?
Why wouldn’t they? A deacon permanent or not is in sacred orders. Assuming it’s a traditional parish in communion with Rome, there are three things to note: one, the EF Mass is valid. Two, the OF Mass is valid. Three, a permanent deacon’s ordination is valid. Whether the parish elects to use the permanent deacon or not in the liturgy is one thing, but the ordination remains valid.

Permanent deacons are not, a “recent trend” but rather the revival of an ancient tradition.
 
I have been watching Deacon Harold Burke Sivers show on EWTN regarding the permanent deacon/diaconate. I understand this has been a fairly recent trend, sparked by Vatican II. Do permanent deacons exist in a tridentine/traditional parish?
We have 22 Seminarians in the diocese now & 2 of them are from our own small parish of 265 families. (2 more from our parish were ordained this past summer.) During the few times we need a Deacon, we have plenty of Transitional Deacons to turn to. Ours is a parish that celebrates both the Latin Mass & the Novus Ordo Mass.

BTW., this is a quote from one of our Seminarians:

“However, **I began serving my Lord on the altar as His acolyte at twelve **and I was strengthened in my love for Him and my sense of His will. In consequence, I sincerely believe He is calling me to serve Him in a special way as His priest.”
 
Since the 1962 missal is the one being used, it provides the deacon a role only for the solemn high mass and for the pontifical masses. Outside the solemn high mass, the deacon’s role is solely as EMHC under the 1962 missal (see the 1917 CIC), but may function as Acolyte (as may lay servers and subdeacons…)
 
A deacon is, by virtue of receiving the sacrament of Holy Orders, is an Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion (OMHC?) not an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion.
 
Why wouldn’t they? A deacon permanent or not is in sacred orders. Assuming it’s a traditional parish in communion with Rome, there are three things to note: one, the EF Mass is valid. Two, the OF Mass is valid. Three, a permanent deacon’s ordination is valid. Whether the parish elects to use the permanent deacon or not in the liturgy is one thing, but the ordination remains valid.
I have to add something to the last sentence: it’s also whether the “permanent” deacon himself elects to serve the EF. I know of several parishes that have a regular EF and have “permanent” deacons who wouldn’t be caught dead at it. They’ve been asked if they’d be interested to learn the EF, and the answer was a resounding 'no." 😦

I’m familiar with two actual scenarios where a parish does elect to invite their “permanent” deacon to function at the Solemn EF, and where the “permanent” deacon himself is more than willing to do it. (And of course if there is more than one “permanent” deacon, one of them could assume the role of subdeacon at the Solemn EF):

The first is parishes where the “permanent” deacon does indeed fulfill his prescribed role at the Solemn EF, and everyone is happy, celebrant, deacon(s), congregation. 🙂 👍 The second is far less pleasant, and concerns parishes where the congregations are extremely unwelcoming (one might even say “hostile”) to “permanent” deacons. So much so that, even though they are supporters of the EF, the deacons bow-out of assuming their liturgical role rather than listen to the negativity. Shame, but under those conditions, one can hardly blame the deacons.
 
A deacon is, by virtue of receiving the sacrament of Holy Orders, is an Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion (OMHC?) not an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion.
Not under the Canon Law and Rubrics in place between Trent and Vatican II. The 1917 CIC specifically allows for EMHCs, namely, Deacons, Subdeacons and Acolytes. Not laymen. The only OMHC at that timeframe were the priest and bishop. Even then, it was considered extraordinary to have more than one minister of Holy Communion.

They became Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion again in the Roman Church only with the Pauline missal.
 
Since the 1962 missal is the one being used, it provides the deacon a role only for the solemn high mass and for the pontifical masses. Outside the solemn high mass, the deacon’s role is solely as EMHC under the 1962 missal (see the 1917 CIC), but may function as Acolyte (as may lay servers and subdeacons…)
My personal concern would be that the deacon might elbow the altar boy out of the way, that would/could represent a loss in potential vocations. We already have seminarians occasionally serve Mass at our FSSP TLM chaplaincy (parish).
 
My personal concern would be that the deacon might elbow the altar boy out of the way, that would/could represent a loss in potential vocations. We already have seminarians occasionally serve Mass at our FSSP TLM chaplaincy (parish).
The role of a deacon at Mass is not the same as an altar server. Lat time I checked, altar servers did not proclaim the Gospel.🙂
 
The role of a deacon at Mass is not the same as an altar server. Lat time I checked, altar servers did not proclaim the Gospel.🙂
It’s not a case of a server assuming higher duties, illicit anyway, it’s a deacon assuming lower duties just to be actively involved.
 
As an aside, the deacon is directly responsible to the bishop. If he is placed in a parish, that is done at the direction of the bishop (who could place him elsewhere, for example, at the Chancery, or in an educational role in sya, a high school, or in the seminary). He may be in a parish, but if he is to serve in that parish, he does so at the direction of the bishop.
 
As an aside, the deacon is directly responsible to the bishop. If he is placed in a parish, that is done at the direction of the bishop (who could place him elsewhere, for example, at the Chancery, or in an educational role in sya, a high school, or in the seminary). He may be in a parish, but if he is to serve in that parish, he does so at the direction of the bishop.
Most of the OF parishes around here have two or more deacons but the TLM parish where I attend has none and a far as I know, wants none. I don’t know if that is due to some sensitivity by the Bishop toward the FSSP clergy or some mutual understanding with the parish or deacons or the fact there may not be any TLM qualified deacons available.
 
Most of the OF parishes around here have two or more deacons but the TLM parish where I attend has none and a far as I know, wants none. I don’t know if that is due to some sensitivity by the Bishop toward the FSSP clergy or some mutual understanding with the parish or deacons or the fact there may not be any TLM qualified deacons available.
I would hope that it is not due to an attitude that is so bound up in ritualism that it cannot distinguish the value of ordination. That would indicate a false sense of what ordination and ritual is about.

There is value in following the rubrics, and there is a certain wisdom of not making a challenge where it may not be necessary, or where the result of the challenge may cause more problems than it was intended to cure.
 
Since the 1962 missal is the one being used, it provides the deacon a role only for the solemn high mass and for the pontifical masses. Outside the solemn high mass, the deacon’s role is solely as EMHC under the 1962 missal (see the 1917 CIC), but may function as Acolyte (as may lay servers and subdeacons…)
The bold is mine.

A deacon is never an EMHC. He is always an Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion. Those who have been ordained are by right, ordinary ministers of Holy Communion in the Roman Church in any form of the mass. All deacons are clergymen. They are not laymen. Therefore, they are ordinary.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
 
Not under the Canon Law and Rubrics in place between Trent and Vatican II. The 1917 CIC specifically allows for EMHCs, namely, Deacons, Subdeacons and Acolytes. Not laymen. The only OMHC at that timeframe were the priest and bishop. Even then, it was considered extraordinary to have more than one minister of Holy Communion.

They became Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion again in the Roman Church only with the Pauline missal.
They became Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion with the Code of 1983, which is the code that is in effect, not the Code of 1917. Why would you want to go back and apply a code that does not have the force of law? That particular code from 1917, regarding the deacons is replaced by the new code. Therefore, they are what they are.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
They became Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion with the Code of 1983, which is the code that is in effect, not the Code of 1917. Why would you want to go back and apply a code that does not have the force of law? That particular code from 1917, regarding the deacons is replaced by the new code. Therefore, they are what they are.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Well, if one is following the 1962 Missal, would it be necessary to follow the 1917 Code? That is, is there anything in the 1917 Code that would impact the 1962 Missal (or better asked, would there be anything in the 1983 Code that would impact the 1962 Missal in a different way than the 1917 Code)?
 
Well, if one is following the 1962 Missal, would it be necessary to follow the 1917 Code? That is, is there anything in the 1917 Code that would impact the 1962 Missal (or better asked, would there be anything in the 1983 Code that would impact the 1962 Missal in a different way than the 1917 Code)?
Wow! That’s probably the most intelligent question that I have seen on CAF.

The answer is rather simple. We (religious and clergy) were told that we could use the 1962 missal, but we must use it according to the code of 1983. This acutally makes sense.

I’ll give you a simple example from my own religious life. Our rule was written in 1209. But anything in the rule that is in conflict with the code of 1983 has to be put to the Holy Father for an indult. In other words, the code supercedes the rule. The principle is that the last law is final.

However, there is another principle in the Catholic Church. That is the pirnciple of antiquity. Certain practices that have been in place for more than 100 may be allowed to continue, even if the law changes. It is up to the Holy See to decide which practices can coninue.

In this case, the Tridentine form was never abrogated and has obviously been in place for over 100 years. The pope has allowed it to remain in place, hence Summorum Pontificum to remind all of us.

However, the laws that govern the clergy and define how the sacraments are executed have changed and Summorum Pontificum did not say that for the purpose of celebrating the Tridentine Form the definitions of the roles: deacon, presbyter and bishop, should be those of the code that preceded. It only said that the form could be celebrated.

We have to preserve the form, but use the current definitions of the roles: deacon, priest and bishop. In other words, the Motu Proprio did not rewrite canon law. It clarified that canon law had never abrogated the Tridentine Form of 1962.

Pope Paul VI, who was the mastermind behind the code of 1983, was very clever in how he organized it. He separates the mass from the ministers. In one section the law speaks about the mass. The ministers are are spoken about at great length under the Sacrament of Holy Orders. They are mentioned only when absolutely necessary in the laws that govern the mass. The old law was written a little differently. There was a lot more about the ministers interwoven in the canons about the mass. The new law keeps referring you to look at the laws that govern Holy Orders.

One more thing . . . I realize that Pope Paul was dead when the code of 1983 was decreed. But it was he who ordered that it be rewritten and he that masterminded the whole architecture of it all. He was a Doctor of Canon Law and had a very clear vision of what he wanted it to say and how it should be said. He died before he was able to promulgate it. Pope John Paul II put it on the back burner for a few years. Some analysts think that he did not want to walk in the door and make monumental changes. I don’t know. 🤷

I hope that helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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