Permant deacons

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I asked the apologist and got nothing to date. so maybe someone else can help me. I really dont understand this whole permant deacon business. I understand that it is a perfectly ligitimate position and that it is something of a new animal. or perhaps a revived one. The thing is we have a new perment decon here at my parish in perth australia. they have him titled as a reverand in the bullitin. He holds the chalace up during consicration kind of like he were con celebrating, but he says nothing. He mixes the water and wine then hands the cup to the priest. he says the homily. he reads the gospel. does anyone know with any certainty where the line is drawn between preist and permant decon. because we at our parish are really becomming furstrated with the whole question.
 
down_under said:
I asked the apologist and got nothing to date. so maybe someone else can help me. I really dont understand this whole permant deacon business. I understand that it is a perfectly ligitimate position and that it is something of a new animal. or perhaps a revived one. The thing is we have a new perment decon here at my parish in perth australia. they have him titled as a reverand in the bullitin. He holds the chalace up during consicration kind of like he were con celebrating, but he says nothing. He mixes the water and wine then hands the cup to the priest. he says the homily. he reads the gospel. does anyone know with any certainty where the line is drawn between preist and permant decon. because we at our parish are really becomming furstrated with the whole question.
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You sure he’s only a permanent deacon then? With all of that it sounds like he might actually be an ordained priest who IS concelebrating.
 
Sounds perfectly OK to me - all that is what they are expected to do .

The title of Reverend is also correct

One question - when he is serving on the Altar - how is he vested ?
 
The history of deacons is a long one. They use to be the bishop’s “right-hand” man, like an assistant and would often times take over the bishop’s position once he died, was martyred, etc… That is the reason they to this day, fall under the bishop’s direct rule. Deacons are to primarily fall into the role of ministry. They can perform communion services, read the gospel, even give homilies. They cannot celebrate mass, but assit the priest in mass. They usually tell people to show the sign of peace and say mass has ended, go in peace. They also hold up the chalice like you mentioned. They are in no means to be a “mini-priest.” They can baptize, perform weddings, and funerals. They cannot annoit the sick or annoit with oil. They are really usefull in parishes in which priests are scarce. They can help pick up a lot of slack and can help the priest where he needs help. They are ORDAINED CLERGY!!! A lot of people either are oblivious to that fact, forget it, or don’t care. They are to be given the respect of such position. You may address them as Deacon Smith or Mr. Smith. They use to be called Mister Rev. Smith. However, that is usually not the norm. But they can use the title Rev.
They go through a pretty tedious formation process that is generally around 5 years give or take.
Deacons are a wonderful asset to the church and do a lot of behind the scenes activities that many people do not see.

There is a book titled 101 Questions about the Diaconate. It is really informative.

Peace
 
DiscerningDave said:
The history of deacons is a long one. They use to be the bishop’s “right-hand” man, like an assistant and would often times take over the bishop’s position once he died, was martyred, etc… That is the reason they to this day, fall under the bishop’s direct rule. Deacons are to primarily fall into the role of ministry. They can perform communion services, read the gospel, even give homilies. They cannot celebrate mass, but assit the priest in mass. They usually tell people to show the sign of peace and say mass has ended, go in peace. They also hold up the chalice like you mentioned. They are in no means to be a “mini-priest.” They can baptize, perform weddings, and funerals. They cannot annoit the sick or annoit with oil. They are really usefull in parishes in which priests are scarce. They can help pick up a lot of slack and can help the priest where he needs help. They are ORDAINED CLERGY!!! A lot of people either are oblivious to that fact, forget it, or don’t care. They are to be given the respect of such position. You may address them as Deacon Smith or Mr. Smith. They use to be called Mister Rev. Smith. However, that is usually not the norm. But they can use the title Rev.
They go through a pretty tedious formation process that is generally around 5 years give or take.
Deacons are a wonderful asset to the church and do a lot of behind the scenes activities that many people do not see.

There is a book titled 101 Questions about the Diaconate. It is really informative.

Peace
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Thanks - very informative post! Never known a deacon, permanent or otherwise, to mix the water and wine or hold up the chalice. But more power to them if they are permitted to do so.
 
wannabee said:
Sounds perfectly OK to me - all that is what they are expected to do .

The title of Reverend is also correct

One question - when he is serving on the Altar - how is he vested ?
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well seeings how you mention it. I often think he is more heavily vested then the priest. where the priest uses what I would consider fairly plain priest vestments, normally the decon vestments have a lot more design to them. no plain white or anything like that he wears the givin litergal color but it is usually embellished, perhaps eleborate is the word. from the rest of the responces though he is doing what he is suspose to be doing and it is just foriegn to my eyes. as I said the perment decon is a new creature. this man is married with 4 children. his kid is in the same class with mine. and I think that is what makes it strange for people.
I mean we know little to nothing about it. most people dont know where to go to find out and he is Perment. as bill my father in law would say, and does, often, he has a dead end job. This is not usually the case. At least till now. It is a phase priests, some priests, pass through. thank you for your insights. I look forward to hearing further if anyone else has any comments. the people at my church will be very intrested.

from down under
 
Permanent Deacon: Generally must be 35 or older to be ordained. Up to the individual diocese. But that is the genral age. May be married, but must usually be in a stable marriage for over 10 years and have wife’s consent, usually written. If they have kids, sometimes the diaconate counsel of the diocese will make them wait until the kids are older, high-school age or so. If they are married they vow to never remarry if their spouse dies. If they are single when ordained, they take a vow of celibacy. Some do, later on in life, go onto the seminary and become priests, but not generally.

Transitional deacon: usually a seminarian ordained as a deacon 6 months before they are ordained as a priest.
 
Deacons, at least where I am from, wear stoles like these.
The sacrament of holy orders is conferred in three ranks of clergy: bishops, priests, and deacons.
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Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They sometimes appear to be called “evangelists” in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).
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Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as “presbyters” or “elders.” In fact, the English term “priest” is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).
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Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).
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Although the terms “bishop,” “priest,” and “deacon” were somewhat fluid in the apostolic age, by the beginning of the second century they had achieved the fixed form in which they are used today to designate the three offices whose functions are clearly distinct in the New Testament.
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Source: catholic.com/library/Bishop_Priest_and_Deacon.asp
it was originally the deacons alone who
  • presented the offerings of the faithful at the altar and especially the bread and wine for the sacrifice,
  • proclaimed the names of those who had contributed (Jerome, Com. in Ezech., xviii)
  • carried away the remnants of the consecrated elements to be reserved in the sacristy, and
  • administered the chalice and, on occasion, the sacred host, to communicants.
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Read here to find out the history of the Diaconate within the Catholic Church and to discover the source of the last quote.

I hope I have been of some help in answering your questions.

Dominus vobiscum,

Kelly
 
The Deacon is ordained into the first step of Holy Orders. Before one can become a priest, he must first be a Deacon.

The Church restored the permanent dianonate after the Council, as a return to the ancient practice. Deacons are ordained to assist the priest. Today, there are two types of deacons. Transitional deacons are ordained in preparation for the priesthood. Permanent deacons are ordained to remain deacons for life. Married men can be ordained as permanent deacons; there is nothing strange about that.

At Mass, the Deacon is vested in an alb, diagonal stole, and a dalmatic. The dalmatic looks like a chasuble but it has sleeves.

At Mass, the Deacon does as you describe. It’s his job to read the Gospel (and sometimes the homily), to prepare the altar and the gifts; he holds up the chalice during the “Through him, with him in him…” doxology. He also invites the people “Let us offer each other the sign of peace” and dismisses the people, “The Mass is ended, go in peace.”

I only regret that the permanent diaconate is not available here in the Philippines where I live.
 
there are some parts of the Mass that properly belong to the deacon, and if he is present, it is actually wrong for the priest to do it, I believe the final dismissal, inviting the congregation to give a sign of peace, possibly the intercessions. we discussed this in great length about a month ago, if you search on deacons you will probably find the thread “what do deacons do” or something like that.

The deacon is strongly associated with the bishop, and that discussion went into the reasons. His vestment is the dalmitic, similar to the chasuble but a different hemline, that other thread had pictures.
 
down_under said:
did not know that I thought Reverand was a protestant thing.
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Reverend is generic. It’s used across religious lines. In Catholic circles:

Reverend (Rev.) = Generic, also used for permanent deacons
Rev. Fr. = priest
Rev. Msgr. = priest who is a monsignor (a type of senior priest, if you’re not familar)
Most Reverend = Bishop
Rt. Reverend = abbott
Reverend Mr. = transitional deacon.
 
Just as a point of clarification – the title of a deacon may vary by country. In the United States the bishops have left it up to the individual diocese to determine if the will use “Rev. Mr.” or “Deacon” – and most have choosen the latter.

In the Eastern Catholic Churches the deacon is called “Rev. Deacon” in writing, and when one addresses him as “Deacon”, “Fr. Deacon” or “Father.”

What the OP described is precisely what a deacon does at Mass.

Deacon Ed
 
down_under said:
I asked the apologist and got nothing to date. so maybe someone else can help me. .
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the way to get the most out of the forums is to first look up your topic on the CA homepage and read what is there. if you ask a FAQ on AAA they are going to post a link for one of the homepage articles anyhow, so you can do the search yourself quicker.

Then search the appropriate forum for your topic. 90% of the time there are already several good threads which not only answer your question but provide great links for further reading.
then, if you still have questions, you post a new thread. We have discussed the diaconate at least 3 times in the last month and there is some great stuff out there, try a search on deacon or diaconate.
 
Deacon_Ed said:
Just as a point of clarification – the title of a deacon may vary by country. In the United States the bishops have left it up to the individual diocese to determine if the will use “Rev. Mr.” or “Deacon” – and most have choosen the latter.
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Sort of.

Some diocese erronously distingish between transitional Deacons and permanent Deacons.

transitionals are “Rev. Mr.” while permanent deacons “Mr.”

It supposed to be one for both, as the Office is the same,
 
porthos11 said:
Reverend is generic. It’s used across religious lines. In Catholic circles:

Reverend (Rev.) = Generic, also used for permanent deacons
Rev. Fr. = priest
Rev. Msgr. = priest who is a monsignor (a type of senior priest, if you’re not familar)
Most Reverend = Bishop
Rt. Reverend = abbott
Reverend Mr. = transitional deacon.
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I’m pretty sure Most Rev is not the norm for a bishop. Rt Rev is. Most Rev is used in countries with an Anglican tradition for Archbishops only, as is the case here in Britain. An abbot is Rt Rev too I believe.

And of course Rev can be omitted from Fr, Msgr etc.

And you omitted Rev Canon- another type of senior priest.
 
The poster should notice that the deacon does not hold up the chalice during the consecration but at the Per Ipsum when the Host and the Cup are elevated and the priest alone intones, “Through Him, with Him, and in Him…” This is proper. Elevating at the consecration when the priest says, “He took the cup…” would be improper and I have never seen this done or heard of any deacon doing this. The deacon pours the wine and water innto the chalice for the preparation of the gifts and says a silent prayer as he does so. He properly reads the Gospel and gives the homily on occasion. If he always gave the homily and the priest never did so, that would be improper. In my parish with one priest, I preach on one Sunday a month and the pastor preaches on the other three. I am married, have six children, three grandchildren, and two more on the way. I have been ordained for a bit over twenty years.
 
Believe me, you are not alone in regards to the confusion of the permanent diaconate roles. There are many countries who still do not have deacons. Priests sometimes struggle to realize that deacons are ordained clergy as they are.Catechesis is the best remedy for the confusion, plus prayer. Deacons are not wanna-be-priests. They have their own separate roles and are very proud of the opportunity to serve the Lord and their neighbors.

Pray for vocation. There is room for many more, because as Jesus says, the crop is plenty, the laborers are few!
 
Titus said:
I’m pretty sure Most Rev is not the norm for a bishop. Rt Rev is. Most Rev is used in countries with an Anglican tradition for Archbishops only, as is the case here in Britain. An abbot is Rt Rev too I believe.

And of course Rev can be omitted from Fr, Msgr etc.

And you omitted Rev Canon- another type of senior priest.
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Most Rev. is the norm in the Roman Catholic Church. You’re correct about the Anglicans reserving it to Archbhishops, but we don’t. Rt. Rev. (what the Anglicans call their bishops) is what we used to use to address a monsignor, but we don’t any more.
 
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