Permissable sex

[tenabrae]

Hello everyone,

I am new to the forum…and I really am having a problem. My wife and I have four kids. 14, 12, 26 months, and a new baby girl 2 months old today. She breast feeds our baby now. However, my wife is very afraid of getting pregnant again. Our marriage is challenged, as I am sure you all can understand with 4 kids. But we havent been intimate in any way for over four months. And when our two year old was born, it was 15 months before we were intimate again. And we got pregnant soon thereafter. I must let you know that she breast fed until our son was 13 months old. And we were intimate not long after…and pregnant a month later. So, I can understand her fears. I know a little about the Billings Ovulation Method, but not NFP. Where can I find some info that will set her mind at ease. Her OBGYN told us we couldn’t practice NFP if she was breastfeeding. Is that true?

A little help please.

Also, we are very unsure as to what form our intimacy can take. We want to know what we can do within Cathoic norms. Are we permitted to have oral forms? Or is foreplay objectionable in the eyes of the church? Can we ONLY have foreplay, or must it always lead to intercourse? Must climax and ejaculation always be internal, or can I withdraw? We are very confused and want to do what is right in God’s eyes. But we can’t handle more kids right now. Where can I find out what the Chruch teaches on this subject. My priest unfortunately seems to be willing to bend moral teaching for the sake of saving our marriage from sexual trouble.

Thanks in advance fo your assistance in this most important matter of intimacy.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

First of all, welcome to the forums! I’m sure you’ll get lots of responses and helpful information. For the record, I was trained in the Sympto-Thermal method of NFP, so I have no experience with mucus-only methods like Billings or Creighton.

Her OBGYN told us we couldn’t practice NFP if she was breastfeeding. Is that true?

No, this is inaccurate. My OB/GYN is an NFP practitioner herself, and she encourages me to practice NFP whenever I want, whether or not I’m breastfeeding. People can/do practice NFP while nursing, and some people actually learn NFP while breastfeeding!

Can we ONLY have foreplay, or must it always lead to intercourse? Must climax and ejaculation always be internal, or can I withdraw?

I am very sorry you have this cross to bear, and I commend you for your willingness to pick it up and follow Christ. To answer your questions, it is my understanding of Church teaching that when engaging in foreplay, the spouses must always intend to have intercourse. Otherwise, seeking sexual pleasure outside of the marital embrace is simply mutual masturbation (and masturbation is always wrong). Also, yes, ejaculation must take place inside the wife’s vagina. Intentionally withdrawing is forbidden.

Again, I know this cross is hard to carry. Just remember, NFP is our moral alternative to complete abstinence (when we desire to space births or avoid them completely for serious reasons), so it’s really quite a blessing in that regard.

Oh! I almost forgot. You can get more information on the Sympto-Thermal method of NFP at Couple to Couple League’s website:

ccli.org/

God bless you and your family ~

 

[1ke]

I know a little about the Billings Ovulation Method, but not NFP. Where can I find some info that will set her mind at ease. Her OBGYN told us we couldn’t practice NFP if she was breastfeeding. Is that true?

You need to take a class. Yes, you can use NFP while breastfeeding.

www.ccli.org for Sympto-Thermal
www.fertilitycare.org or www.creightonmodel.com for Creighton
www.woomb.org for Billings

Are we permitted to have oral forms? Or is foreplay objectionable in the eyes of the church?

As foreplay, not as the main act.

Can we ONLY have foreplay, or must it always lead to intercourse?

Intercourse must occur. No “foreplay” only.

Must climax and ejaculation always be internal, or can I withdraw?

Withdrawing is contraception. A completed act of intercourse is required if you begin (barring an accident on the part of the man, it cannot be *intended *to end other than in intercourse.)

Where can I find out what the Chruch teaches on this subject.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church particularly the section on the Sixth Commandment and the encyclical Humanae Vitae. Both are available online.

My priest unfortunately seems to be willing to bend moral teaching for the sake of saving our marriage from sexual trouble.

That is quite unfortunate.

 

[bekahlou]

For real question…What if the couple has anal sex? Does the husband have to ejaculate in the vagina or just inside the woman?

 

[Fergal]

I am very sorry you have this cross to bear, and I commend you for your willingness to pick it up and follow Christ.

Again, I know this cross is hard to carry.

Woah…

A Cross to carry? A negative burden??? This is by all means a very unfortunate response. Go read the Theology of the Body and you will discover that true spousal love is the complete opposite to the Cross. In fact how abstinence or NFP can ever be compared with a Cross is really beyond me.

Could you clear it up please?

 

[Fergal]

I am very sorry you have this cross to bear, and I commend you for your willingness to pick it up and follow Christ.

Again, I know this cross is hard to carry.

Woah…

A Cross to carry? A negative burden??? This is by all means a very unfortunate response. Go read the Theology of the Body and you will discover that true spousal love is the complete opposite to the Cross. In fact how abstinence or NFP can ever be compared with a Cross is really beyond me.

Could you clear it up please?

 

[chrysostom15]

I’d reccomend the first link by the first poster to the Couple-to-Couple league. They also have classes that are good to take.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

Woah…

A Cross to carry? A negative burden???

The original poster sounded frightened of another pregnancy, and I had assumed he had legitimate, serious reasons for doing so. To be in a situation where you are scared to have another baby, your marriage is in trouble, and you are contemplating sinful things like artificial birth control, is a hard cross to bear (at least, it would be for me ). I did not mean to imply that using NFP is a cross. Heavens, no! (I even referred to NFP as a blessing.) I just wanted to acknowledge the OP’s difficult situation, that’s all.

Does this help you in understanding me, Fergal? Please let me know.

 

[Fergal]

The original poster sounded frightened of another pregnancy, and I had assumed he had legitimate, serious reasons for doing so. To be in a situation where you are scared to have another baby, your marriage is in trouble, and you are contemplating sinful things like artificial birth control, is a hard cross to bear (at least, it would be for me ). I did not mean to imply that using NFP is a cross. Heavens, no! (I even referred to NFP as a blessing.) I just wanted to acknowledge the OP’s difficult situation, that’s all.

Does this help you in understanding me, Fergal? Please let me know.

Phew!

For one minute I did think it was the NFP you were referring to!
Thanks for clarifying:thumbsup:

 

[Truly_Beloved]

Phew!

For one minute I did think it was the NFP you were referring to!
Thanks for clarifying:thumbsup:

No problem, thanks for asking for the clarification! You couldn’t possibly be the only one who took my post the way you did. Sorry I didn’t communicate very well.

 

[vluvski]

For real question…What if the couple has anal sex? Does the husband have to ejaculate in the vagina or just inside the woman?

Inside the wife’s vagina. Think about the reason for this requirement- each act must be both unitive AND procreative. Anal sex in and of itself is NOT procreative, and I dare say it would be a special couple that would find anal sex to be mutually unitive.

That being said, the serious sanitary issues that result from anal contact followed by vaginal contact make it rather impractical. I would encourage those considering anal sex to search and pray about what it is they are looking for in their sexual relationship.

 

[HectorVillas]

That being said, the serious sanitary issues that result from anal contact followed by vaginal contact make it rather impractical.

I know the man’s seed needs to go on the right location in the Wife. Question :
The Husband needs to ejaculate in the Wifes vagina, or he could ejaculate elsewhere in her body (eg: breast, neck…), and then, collecting the seed with his mouth and placing it in her wife’s vagina?
This should be an option to the couple who has anal sex and have to give the right destination to the sperm whitout having to place the penis in the vagina.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

For real question…What if the couple has anal sex? Does the husband have to ejaculate in the vagina or just inside the woman?

I know the man’s seed needs to go on the right location in the Wife. Question :
The Husband needs to ejaculate in the Wifes vagina, or he could ejaculate elsewhere in her body (eg: breast, neck…), and then, collecting the seed with his mouth and placing it in her wife’s vagina?
This should be an option to the couple who has anal sex and have to give the right destination to the sperm whitout having to place the penis in the vagina.

If you have questions that stem from the original poster’s question, please start a new thread.

 

[HectorVillas]

If you have questions that stem from the original poster’s question, please start a new thread.

Tks Mirrior Mirror!

 

[Convert_in_99]

**As for what is allowed…its really quite simple.

The husband must always, 100% of the time climax (ejaculate) inside his wife’s vagina.

The wife may climax either directly before vaginal intercourse (during foreplay she may be stimulated to climax), during vaginal intercourse, or directly after vaginal intercourse (after her husband finishes inside of her, she may be stimulated to climax also.)

Oral or manual stimulation of the man or woman is fine, the woman may climax from this stimulation directly before, during, or directly after vaginal intercourse. The man may NOT be stimulated to climax anywhere outside of his wife’s vagina.

Some foreplay (NOT to the point of climax) is allowed between one act of vaginal intercourse and another, such as during the fertile times for NFP using couples, or from one day to the next for other couples. But this must NEVER EVER result in a climax for EITHER spouse. It also must not continue to the point where it would make it difficult for a spouse to not continue on to vaginal intercourse, or be tempted to sin through masturbation or other grave faults. Each couple is different and many couples will experience that they simply cannot have any genital contact outside of vaginal intercourse, as it is too stimulating and arousing. Others will find that it can be tolerated in moderation, and helps the couples to look forward to the next time where they can be together fully.

Again, I stress, this foreplay outside of vaginal intercourse must NEVER EVER lead to climax, such a climax, outside of vaginal intercourse (or during that act as a whole for the woman) is a grave and mortal sin. Period.

**

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

**As for what is allowed…its really quite simple.

The husband must always, 100% of the time climax (ejaculate) inside his wife’s vagina.

The wife may climax either directly before vaginal intercourse (during foreplay she may be stimulated to climax), during vaginal intercourse, or directly after vaginal intercourse (after her husband finishes inside of her, she may be stimulated to climax also.)

Oral or manual stimulation of the man or woman is fine, the woman may climax from this stimulation directly before, during, or directly after vaginal intercourse. The man may NOT be stimulated to climax anywhere outside of his wife’s vagina.

Some foreplay (NOT to the point of climax) is allowed between one act of vaginal intercourse and another, such as during the fertile times for NFP using couples, or from one day to the next for other couples. But this must NEVER EVER result in a climax for EITHER spouse. It also must not continue to the point where it would make it difficult for a spouse to not continue on to vaginal intercourse, or be tempted to sin through masturbation or other grave faults. Each couple is different and many couples will experience that they simply cannot have any genital contact outside of vaginal intercourse, as it is too stimulating and arousing. Others will find that it can be tolerated in moderation, and helps the couples to look forward to the next time where they can be together fully.

Again, I stress, this foreplay outside of vaginal intercourse must NEVER EVER lead to climax, such a climax, outside of vaginal intercourse (or during that act as a whole for the woman) is a grave and mortal sin. Period.

**

Great post. Period!

 

[TIME]

Convert, Could you repost on “Whats Ok and What’s Not Regarding Marital Sexuality?” I would do it but don’t want to plagiarize your entire post.

 

[HectorVillas]

(…)such a climax, outside of vaginal intercourse (or during that act as a whole for the woman) is a grave and mortal sin.

Why ejaculation must take place inside the wife’s vagina? Isn’t the rigth destination what matters?

I know withdrawing is contraception, and I don’t want it. That’s why I’m asking if it’s not allowed to place it into my wife after ejaculating.

If you have questions that stem from the original poster’s question, please start a new thread

PS: Sorry Mirror, I tried to create another thread, but this one continued on…

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

Why ejaculation must take place inside the wife’s vagina? Isn’t the rigth destination what matters?

What you must realize is that sexual intimacy between a husband and wife it not about “destinations” it is about the husband and wife uniting with each other, renewing their marital vows by giving themselves to each other fully, totally, faithfully and fruitfully. Each act must be unitive (uniting the husband and wife) and procreative (open to new life). If the husband’s climax does not take place inside of the vagina, then it is not procreative.

I know withdrawing is contraception, and I don’t want it. That’s why I’m asking if it’s not allowed to place it into my wife after ejaculating.

Now I understand what you question is, but you have to look at the act that you are engaging in. I would have to question the intention of withdrawing in the first place. You must also look at what the sperm is intended for. The sperm and the semen are used in the procreation of a new human life. To misuse that would be a misuse of your gift of sexuality given to you by God. I think that the Church is very acceptable when it comes to foreplay and the sexual act, she simply asks that you finish inside of your wife’s vagina, is it really that difficult?

PS: Sorry Mirror, I tried to create another thread, but this one continued on…

Since you are following the trend, I decided to respond.

 

[HectorVillas]

What you must realize is that sexual intimacy between a husband and wife it not about “destinations” it is about the husband and wife uniting with each other, renewing their marital vows by giving themselves to each other fully, totally, faithfully and fruitfully.

Oh! thanks Mirror, this idea came to me and I got fixed on that “destinations” subject, not realizing that sexual intimacy between a husband and wife is much more than that. Thanks!