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turtle18
Guest
My observation is that a lot of Protestants turned Catholic seem to have a lot of trouble with this Church teaching and want to ignore it. It doesn’t matter what your point is or what you believe—it is what the Church teaches that is the truth. Being Catholic is really hard sometimes and that extends to EVERY aspect of your life.Thank you! That EXACTLY sums up my point.
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Mirror_Mirror
Guest
Yes, sex is meant to be enjoyed, however, one must be mindful of what the Church has said about this subject and how it has been extraoplated so beautifully by the late (great) John Paul II and as interpreted by Christopher West.
There are sexual acts that could make (and rightfully should make) a person feel shameful. As you have mentioned the Church has taught that each act must be procreative and unitive. Aside from that, the act becomes selfish, thereby becoming the exact opposite of love. Love is selfless. Giving of yourself to your spouse, not looking our for your best interest.
No one’s business but God’s. And God said that the act must be procreative. Last time I checked if a woman performs oral sex on her husband and he orgasms during that act, no baby can be formed. Therefore, not procreative. God cares where the sperm ends up at and I think that He is pretty important.
You are correct that the woman cannot and will not be fertile at all times of the month. However, that does not prohibit married couples from joining in the marital embrace. The marital embrace is a renewal of your wedding vows. A time that you tell you spouse that you give everything that you have to them. It is a part of the marriage that God deemed holy. A way that we, here on earth, can closely experience the Eucharist. Remember, Jesus said “…take this all of you…this is my body…give up for you.” Similar to what we tell our spouse in the marital embrace.
When the Church states that every act must be procreative, that means it must be open to new life. Each time that a married couple has sex, new life will not be created, whether fertile or not. It just, biologically does not happen. However, by practicing NFP and follow the Chruch’s guidance, the married couple is open to life each time they engage in that act. They know that and accept that each time.
Mind you, each relationship is different and everyone is at different stages in their relationship, some want to increase their family, others do not. But that does not mean that those that are not at a point of increasing their family have to abstain from the marital embrace completely. They still unite in that embrace, knowing that there is a chance for new life. They are open to that. Again, it may not happen.
A misconception as noted above. Having sex during an infertile time is not going against what the Church teaches. You are still open to life and you still are uniting with your spouse in a renewal of your wedding vows, uniting in love.
As another poster suggested, look into Christopher West’s books and even the writings of JPII if you will. That will help you to gain a clearer understanding of the Church’s teachings with regards to this area.
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Stylteralmaldo
Guest
Hello: SirOscar’s husband reporting in. Money is really tight right now and I doubt we will have the resources to purchase any books in the near term.
Any online resources may be beneficial for the financially challenged out there.
Also, we own Love and Responsibility by JPII. If anyone can point us to the relevent area of that book that could be beneficial to the discussion at hand, that would be greatly appreciated.
Any online resources may be beneficial for the financially challenged out there.
Also, we own Love and Responsibility by JPII. If anyone can point us to the relevent area of that book that could be beneficial to the discussion at hand, that would be greatly appreciated.
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Mirror_Mirror
Guest
I understand the money issue and would suggest checking at your local library for some of the books as well as your local parish. Sometimes they will be willing to loan you books.Hello: SirOscar’s husband reporting in. Money is really tight right now and I doubt we will have the resources to purchase any books in the near term.
Any online resources may be beneficial for the financially challenged out there.
Also, we own Love and Responsibility by JPII. If anyone can point us to the relevent area of that book that could be beneficial to the discussion at hand, that would be greatly appreciated.
Check out this website for some good information
catholicaudio.blogspot.com/search?q=christopher+west
www.christopherwest.com
theologyofthebody.net/
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM
As for Love and Responsibility, I am not sure where the specifics are in that book, you would have to thumb through it to find what you are looking for or you could simply read it…just a thought.
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SirOscar
Guest
by LJN21
It is very good advice to read this book, however, JJN21, you are assuming many things by my post:
1st that I am male, 2nd that my spouse and I have not read the “Good News book” 3rd that my celibacy is one sided, 4th that we are not uniting in other ways, and lastly, we are dissatisfied.
As I said before, we are done having children. That is a topic my spouse and I have discussed and prayed about. We, together have chosen celibacy as our means of protecting ourselves from having more children. It is not right to persuade or to pass judgement that our choice is a disservice to each other. You have no knowledge of the why’s we came to this choice.
Mirror, Mirror, I loved your post. It was beautifully put together without the “you are sinning tone” that so many on here have. Thank you. I hope your post will touch the hearts of those that do have issues with this teaching.
I think there are many interpretations of what the church means by procreative and unitive. The church’s teaching on sex & marriage is for the a married couple to be open to children & not to use an artificial means to stop it. I think this was their intent when they meant “procreative” The church’s teaching for sex to be unitive is to not to be selfish with one another, not abuse each other, and to keep it sacred. I think there is way too much analysis on this teaching that is causing a lot of confusion.
I am not one to judge what another couple does in the bedroom…or their choice on if & when they have children and what means they choose to stop it. It is theirs and God’s alone.
Birth Control and Sex is a touchy topic, and it is very difficult for some Catholics (new or cradle) to understand the church’s teachings.
Be merciful, do not attack, assume or condemn. We are too quick to do this, and it only pushes people further from the truth.
God Bless you all!
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bilop
Guest
You are misunderstanding what procreative means in this context. The act need not be actually procreative (i.e. every act does not have to result in conception). It need only be objectively procreative, i.e. no steps are taken to alter the act to make it infertile.
Spouses are free to have sex or abstain on any given day. That’s all NFP is. As long as the act remains unaltered (husband climaxes in the appropriate place w/no artificial contraceptives used) it is objectively procreative.
God Bless
L
LJN21
Guest
Sorry, thats the trouble with the internet. Being female I should know by now to just not assume
It just made me sad that you two were giving up the Marital Embrace because you decided you shouldn’t have any more children. I’m sorry it came off as judgment, I was tired and not feeling well when I wrote that, I assure you that was not my intent at all.
God gave us our cycles so we did not have to completely give up sex if we had just reason to not have any more children, other wise we would just be fertile all the time. Also that would make sex after menopause wrong as well.
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Princess18
Guest
Regarding foreplay, ejaculating vaginally every time, anal sex etc … I bugged the stew out of our priest about this at our pre-marriage counseling session recently. Here is what we came up with:
Procreative: This is a mental concern almost more than it is physical. You have to look at the mindset of each embrace. For example, are we engaging in oral sex to avoid pregnancy, or is it foreplay? If it is foreplay, then it’s not contraceptive in nature. If during a night I engage my husband in oral sex to completion and ALSO have vaginal sex to completion, I am being just as procreative as if it ended vaginally both times. The ejaculation outside does not negate the seed that made it inside … and it’s unlikely I’ve change my procreative mindset during the events of the night. You don’t have to have more seed to be procreative … one shot works just fine. As long as it ends at least once vaginally during the night, then you are obviously open to life the whole time.
For some of the more traditional, sexually conservative couples this may seem pointless as to why you’d want to end it anywhere else … but not all of us feel the same way. As far as anal sex goes, some couples really enjoy it, again it’s up to the couple to decide what’s unitive and what’s not. The point has been brought up in other posts about the health risks involved, which takes me right back to the procreative mindset question - if a couple engages in anal sex with a condom (eliminating the cleanliness issue) and later removes it for vaginal sex with full gift of seed, they were not in a contraceptive mindset. In this case, the condom is a sanitary device, and not a barrier to life.
The simple synopsis: if seed makes it in the right place at some point, you’re open to life. Once the seed ends up where its supposed to, then sticking things in weird places doesn’t reverse that.
Procreative: This is a mental concern almost more than it is physical. You have to look at the mindset of each embrace. For example, are we engaging in oral sex to avoid pregnancy, or is it foreplay? If it is foreplay, then it’s not contraceptive in nature. If during a night I engage my husband in oral sex to completion and ALSO have vaginal sex to completion, I am being just as procreative as if it ended vaginally both times. The ejaculation outside does not negate the seed that made it inside … and it’s unlikely I’ve change my procreative mindset during the events of the night. You don’t have to have more seed to be procreative … one shot works just fine. As long as it ends at least once vaginally during the night, then you are obviously open to life the whole time.
For some of the more traditional, sexually conservative couples this may seem pointless as to why you’d want to end it anywhere else … but not all of us feel the same way. As far as anal sex goes, some couples really enjoy it, again it’s up to the couple to decide what’s unitive and what’s not. The point has been brought up in other posts about the health risks involved, which takes me right back to the procreative mindset question - if a couple engages in anal sex with a condom (eliminating the cleanliness issue) and later removes it for vaginal sex with full gift of seed, they were not in a contraceptive mindset. In this case, the condom is a sanitary device, and not a barrier to life.
The simple synopsis: if seed makes it in the right place at some point, you’re open to life. Once the seed ends up where its supposed to, then sticking things in weird places doesn’t reverse that.
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SirOscar
Guest
I accept your apology, but I too was not in the right frame of mind while reading our post. Thank you for your thoughtful words.
Yes, God did give us the cycle of fertile and infertile times, but sometimes those times are difficult to gauge, especially as one gets older, or there is a lot of stresses in life, or the beginning of menopause sets in. Maybe in time, I will trust NFP, but I do not right now.
Stylteralmaldo, we have the “Good News” book and Aren’t you supposed to be working? Love Ya!
S
Stylteralmaldo
Guest
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Mirror_Mirror
Guest
I am going to have to disagree with the highlighted part above. Why? Procreative means that you are open to life each and every time that you and your spouse come together in the marital embrace. If a husband’s climax is not inside of his wife how can it be procreative? Now, I understand what you are trying to say, however, I think that you “loophole” falls short of being what is intended by the act. Forgive me if I am reading into what you are saying, but if you say that at 7pm you perform oral sex to completion on your husband and then later on at 10pm you engage in sexual intercourse with him finishing inside of you then the night was (overall) procreative.Regarding foreplay, ejaculating vaginally every time, anal sex etc … I bugged the stew out of our priest about this at our pre-marriage counseling session recently. Here is what we came up with:
Procreative: This is a mental concern almost more than it is physical. You have to look at the mindset of each embrace. For example, are we engaging in oral sex to avoid pregnancy, or is it foreplay? If it is foreplay, then it’s not contraceptive in nature. ** If during a night I engage my husband in oral sex to completion and ALSO have vaginal sex to completion, I am being just as procreative as if it ended vaginally both times. The ejaculation outside does not negate the seed that made it inside … and it’s unlikely I’ve change my procreative mindset during the events of the night. You don’t have to have more** seed to be procreative … one shot works just fine. As long as it ends at least once vaginally during the night, then you are obviously open to life the whole time.
For some of the more traditional, sexually conservative couples this may seem pointless as to why you’d want to end it anywhere else … but not all of us feel the same way. As far as anal sex goes, some couples really enjoy it, again it’s up to the couple to decide what’s unitive and what’s not. The point has been brought up in other posts about the health risks involved, which takes me right back to the procreative mindset question - if a couple engages in anal sex with a condom (eliminating the cleanliness issue) and later removes it for vaginal sex with full gift of seed, they were not in a contraceptive mindset. In this case, the condom is a sanitary device, and not a barrier to life.
The simple synopsis: if seed makes it in the right place at some point, you’re open to life. Once the seed ends up where its supposed to, then sticking things in weird places doesn’t reverse that.
An act is not defined by happening during the same day. It is each act that has to be open to life. Each time that the husband ejaculates it must be inside of his wife…therefore negating the climax from oral sex.
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Princess18
Guest
I see your point, and quite honestly I’ve never thought of it in terms of a 24 hour period or 7pm to 10pm, as in your example. I’ve always looked at the act as when a couple “gets in the bed” sexually to when their lovemaking is over. I don’t think that we’d look at the clock and time it. Also too, I can’t imagine that this issue comes up that much. How many couples fool around at 7pm, go to dinner and a movie and then fool around again at 10pm on a regular basis? So if it’s not a regular occurrence, isn’t it kind of scrupulous to worry about it? I mean I hope future husband and I have time to laze around and not get out of bed for hours on end, but just short of our honeymoon it doesn’t seem too likely.
I suspect that an overwhelming majority of the time the marital embrace is vaginal … if you have few precious moments together with full, tiring, busy lives then you wouldn’t want to just have appetizers instead your main course. If that’s the case then the points I made are fairly useless. But, for those rare times, when time is a luxury you have, you have to embrace in the right mindset and it does not seem to me to be necessary to nitpick it to death.
I know not everyone agrees. Newbetx fusses at me fairly regularly for finding too many shades of grey (but I don’t mind). The big thing that the priest stressed to us is that God gave us a brain and we should use it to sort through the grey areas … I tend to stay away from the details and embrace the big picture.
M
Mirror_Mirror
Guest
Newbetx is a good friend of mine here on CAF.
Anyhow, I think that you see what I was getting at. I do not think that it is a case of nitpicking, I think that it is a case of learning about what it means to be procreative and unitive, know the boundaries and limitations that are created by this and not stepping over those. While this may be difficult at first to live withing in “limitations” the possibilities are pretty vast. I think that it was very kind of God to simply say, be fruitful and multiply and I will give you a pleasureable way to do that, just be procreative and unite in your marital love.
I just posted to point out that each ejaculation from the husband must be inside his wife.
P
Princess18
Guest
Speaking of, Newbetx, why aren’t you piping up in this conversation? Nobody says “hey Princess, you’re wrong” quite as lovely, tactfully, and sweetly as you do
(although Mirror Mirror is giving you a run for your money)Come out and play when you can.
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waterdog
Guest
Whoa. Been married 20 years and practiced NFP the entire time and I am really glad that I was not in contact with any of the foregoing legalese and parsing. Would have ruined a good time. Basically I think once you understand that you must be open to life (and why it is a beautiful free thing to be open) and once you understand that using each other is not loving each other, follow your heart (while keeping up open prayer life) and it should all fall into place.
And by the way, I am sorry but anal sex cannot be OK. Yukorama. That part of the body is not meant for sex. It is easily injured and not sterile. So add a third consideration to being open and not using. Think of the constraints of nature as well. There you are. My 2 cents worth and 20 years worth.
And by the way, I am sorry but anal sex cannot be OK. Yukorama. That part of the body is not meant for sex. It is easily injured and not sterile. So add a third consideration to being open and not using. Think of the constraints of nature as well. There you are. My 2 cents worth and 20 years worth.
L
LJN21
Guest
Going to have to disagree with that as well, so does every priest I’ve consulted on the issue. One act is defined by them as basically is one male ejaculation, when the wife organism (before or after the husband) is irrelevant.Regarding foreplay, ejaculating vaginally every time, anal sex etc … I bugged the stew out of our priest about this at our pre-marriage counseling session recently. Here is what we came up with:
Procreative: This is a mental concern almost more than it is physical. You have to look at the mindset of each embrace. For example, are we engaging in oral sex to avoid pregnancy, or is it foreplay? ** If it is foreplay, then it’s not contraceptive in nature. If during a night I engage my husband in oral sex to completion and ALSO have vaginal sex to completion, I am being just as procreative as if it ended vaginally both times. The ejaculation outside does not negate the seed that made it inside … and it’s unlikely I’ve change my procreative mindset during the events of the night. You don’t have to have more** seed to be procreative … one shot works just fine. As long as it ends at least once vaginally during the night, then you are obviously open to life the whole time.
For some of the more traditional, sexually conservative couples this may seem pointless as to why you’d want to end it anywhere else … but not all of us feel the same way. As far as anal sex goes, some couples really enjoy it, again it’s up to the couple to decide what’s unitive and what’s not. The point has been brought up in other posts about the health risks involved, which takes me right back to the procreative mindset question - if a couple engages in anal sex with a condom (eliminating the cleanliness issue) and later removes it for vaginal sex with full gift of seed, they were not in a contraceptive mindset. In this case, the condom is a sanitary device, and not a barrier to life.
The simple synopsis: if seed makes it in the right place at some point, you’re open to life. Once the seed ends up where its supposed to, then sticking things in weird places doesn’t reverse that.
L
LJN21
Guest
Right now I have one nursing so I can relate to a degree
Have you ever taken the classes? You could start charting and maybe in a few months have a few 100% safe days.
K
kage_ar
Guest
Well, this wife would take objection to being an irrelevant organism
L
LJN21
Guest
Bah thats not what I meant!Well, this wife would take objection to being an irrelevant organism
I meant was, if for some reason it doesn’t get the job done before or during he better finish what he started before he falls asleep!
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