Permissable

[EstaM]

Is it permissable to use ceramic vessels for the body and blood of Jesus during mass and also what is the age limit for a female altar server? I was told that female altar servers have to ‘retire’ at a certain age. We have one female alter server who is about 17/18 - is this allowed? I am based in England so maybe the rules are different here, thanks.

 

[puzzleannie]

altar vessels must be of unbreakable materials, lined with noble metal such as gold preferably.

rules for altar servers are determined by your bishop.

 

[EstaM]

Thank you puzzleannie. However the ceramic vessels are not lined with gold or any such metal, they are just ceramic. Does it mean that it’s illicit?

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
Thank you puzzleannie. However the ceramic vessels are not lined with gold or any such metal, they are just ceramic. Does it mean that it’s illicit?**

Yes.

 

[EstaM]

Thank you.

 

[twf]

Not only illicit, but REPROBATE. You should speak to the pastor immediately.
From Sacramentum Redemptoris:

[117.] Sacred vessels for containing the Body and Blood of the Lord must be made in strict conformity with the norms of tradition and of the liturgical books.[205]The Bishops’ Conferences have the faculty to decide whether it is appropriate, once their decisions have been given the recognitio by the Apostolic See, for sacred vessels to be made of other solid materials as well. It is strictly required, however, that such materials be truly noble in the common estimation within a given region,[206]so that honour will be given to the Lord by their use, and all risk of diminishing the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species in the eyes of the faithful will be avoided.** Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels**, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily. This norm is to be applied even as regards metals and other materials that easily rust or deteriorate.

(Emphasis added)
The document specifies that paragraph 117 (quoted above) is grave matter; thus a priest who willfully and knowingly uses an earthenware chalice is in mortal sin for blantantly defying Holy Mother Church. (See paragraph 173 of said document)

 

[thistle]

Not only illicit, but REPROBATE. You should speak to the pastor immediately.
From Sacramentum Redemptoris:
(Emphasis added)
The document specifies that paragraph 117 (quoted above) is grave matter; thus a priest who willfully and knowingly uses an earthenware chalice is in mortal sin for blantantly defying Holy Mother Church. (See paragraph 173 of said document)

It probably depends. Many of today’s ceramics are stronger than metal, unbreakable and not porous.
Look at the space shuttles. The heat shields are ceramic tiles.

 

[Scottgun]

We have to be careful not to think that it is a matter over the issue of fragileness or breakability. The kicker sentence in twf’s quote is this:

It is strictly required, however, that such materials be truly noble in the common estimation within a given region so that honour will be given to the Lord by their use, and all risk of diminishing the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species in the eyes of the faithful will be avoided.

So the ceramic thingy that looks like something used to eat Cheerios doesn’t cut it. I think some parishes have people who have watched Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade too many times. “That’s the cup of a carpenter” and run with that. While I can appreciate simplicity, we have to remember that we have seen lots of attempts proposing to “simplify” the Faith. Remember who? I’ll spot you the p, the r, t, s, t, n, t and let you buy a vowel.

 

[EstaM]

Thanks to everyone who has responded. Twf I will ask the priest exactly what the chalice is made of on Sunday and also show him the guidelines you kindly provided. I’ll let you know how I get on.

 

[Evan]

I believe there is an indult for the US diocese which expands what is considered proper for use of vessels. I know in our parish it was not even close to meeting the requirements.

BUT recently all our cups (glass) and bowls (wood) were replaced by gold plated metalic vessels. Beautiful, function, noble, practical, and licit.

FINALLY!!

 

[rpp]

It probably depends. Many of today’s ceramics are stronger than metal, unbreakable and not porous.
Look at the space shuttles. The heat shields are ceramic tiles.

I do not blieve that is completely accurate. Also, I have yet to see the various space shuttle heat shield tile material used for anything that touches food.

The heat shield material is actually just as fragile as other ceramic material. It is just able to tolerate and dissipate heat quite efficiently.
Also, the heat shield is not a single material. It is a sandwich of many materials include quartz sand ceramic, aluminum, special adhesives, softer ablative material, silica-based tiles for very high temperature areas, carbon fiber, and many other materials. It is important to understand that there are many different types of heat shield tiles used on different parts of the shuttle based on how hot that part gets.

And they are all fragile. Most can be broken by dropping them onto a hard surface from three feet. Other tiles are flexible.

Finally, all the material is a mixture of lots of different stuff, and therefore is not “noble”. Noble in this case means elemental, or consisting of a single material like gold or at least gold plate on metal.

So even space shuttle heat shield material would be an inappropriate material to contain the Body and Blood of our Lord.

I hope this helps.

 

[benedictgal]

If there was such an indult, apparently somone forgot to tell Francis Cardinal Arinze, Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Here is what he (and, the good cardinal happens to be the Holy See’s leading authority on all things liturgical) has to say on the issue of sacred vessels:

In the United States, we have adequate income, why would we have to use glass or porcelain for the precious Blood and the Body of our Lord on the altar and not gold?

Oh, for the vessels. Ah! Actually, the liturgical laws forbid [this]. This is actually for bishops and priests to work out, because you cannot work out all that. But the liturgical laws are laid down about what type of vessel will be allowed at Mass.

Glass is forbidden. Yes, Forbidden. And anything that can break. Not to talk of those using baskets! Terrible things happen in this world!

This was taken from a Q and A session that occurred here in the United States, and, the transcription appears on www.adoremus.org . Now, even though he is talking about glass (because that was what the question was about), he was, nonetheless, rather direct on the issue. He even included baskets (and these don’t break).

Might I also add that both he and the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (who just happens to be our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI) jointly collaborated on Redemptionis Sacramentum. Therefore, with Pope Benedict having a hand in that document, don’t hold your breath on any indults deviating from Redemptionis Sacramentum. The Holy Father has already rescinded the indult regarding EHMC’s purifying the sacred vessels.

 

[Pious]

The former Priest in a neighbouring parish, threw out all of the gold and silver type chalices and replaced them with blue clay vessels.

I was at one of his Masses and the altar bread was piled high on a clay plate and remained as such after the consecration; I was dreading that Our Lord could fall of the plate due to the amount that was stacked.

The Priests response as to why he now used clay vessels is because that is what Jesus would have used at the last supper.

He even tried to replace the processional crucifix with two thick branches tied together as a cross.

 

[rpp]

The former Priest in a neighbouring parish, threw out all of the gold and silver type chalices and replaced them with blue clay vessels.

I was at one of his Masses and the altar bread was piled high on a clay plate and remained as such after the consecration; I was dreading that Our Lord could fall of the plate due to the amount that was stacked.

The Priests response as to why he now used clay vessels is because that is what Jesus would have used at the last supper.

He even tried to replace the processional crucifix with two thick branches tied together as a cross.

and

How long ago was this? Were these practices corrected to your knowledge? If so, how long did they go on? This is pretty serious!

 

[Pious]

and

How long ago was this? Were these practices corrected to your knowledge? If so, how long did they go on? This is pretty serious!

This was a couple of years ago; the makeshift cross was replaced back with the processional crucifix after a while, but the clay vessels remained.

The Priest used the same vessels when ever the Bishop visited, and he did not to my knowledge correct this.

There are a few parishes in my diocese that would make you wonder if you were in a Catholic church, the way the Priests change the wordings of the Mass.

I went to one parish today, because I found out the Priest was the assistant Priest in my old parish when I was a toddler, and I wanted to go and see his church.

There were various things that IMHO should not have happened, whether it is allowed I do not know; but the procession at the start of Mass had the laity walking in the procession with one lady carrying the Gospel to the altar and some parents walking with their children up to the alter and then all returning to their seats.

The homily was replaced with a nun talking about her time in the missions.

There were other stuff, but I thought the more I attempt to find abuses then the less time I am spending with the Lord.

Oh and the organ was out of tune; I know it is not a liturgical abuse, but listening to it was an abuse of my hearing

The priest of the parish with clay vessels has moved, so I do not know if the current priest will return to the normal.

 

[spellinggirl]

At my parish (in the United States) there is no age limit for altar servers. They start in the 5th grade, and may continue until they want to quit, or don’t fit in our robes anymore! I am an altar server and I’ll be serving 'till I can’t fit!

ALTAR SERVERS ROCK!

 

[benedictgal]

This was a couple of years ago; the makeshift cross was replaced back with the processional crucifix after a while, but the clay vessels remained.

The Priest used the same vessels when ever the Bishop visited, and he did not to my knowledge correct this.

There are a few parishes in my diocese that would make you wonder if you were in a Catholic church, the way the Priests change the wordings of the Mass.

I went to one parish today, because I found out the Priest was the assistant Priest in my old parish when I was a toddler, and I wanted to go and see his church.

There were various things that IMHO should not have happened, whether it is allowed I do not know; but the procession at the start of Mass had the laity walking in the procession with one lady carrying the Gospel to the altar and some parents walking with their children up to the alter and then all returning to their seats.

The homily was replaced with a nun talking about her time in the missions.

There were other stuff, but I thought the more I attempt to find abuses then the less time I am spending with the Lord.

Oh and the organ was out of tune; I know it is not a liturgical abuse, but listening to it was an abuse of my hearing

The priest of the parish with clay vessels has moved, so I do not know if the current priest will return to the normal.

Regarding the nun talking about her missions, this should not have replaced the homily. This is what Redemptionis Sacramentum has to say:

[64.] The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself,142 “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.143 In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.144

[65.] It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the Eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.145 This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.

[66.] The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as “pastoral assistants”; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.146

She could have been allowed to say something brief after the Post-Communion prayer, but, this should never substitute the homily under no circumstances.

 

[Brian_Millar]

Outside to show some kind of respect, where the offering is cherished, what was the original cup/chalis made from that Jesus used on the last supper? I bet it was some humble earthen ware, what happened for it to go from that, to something more elaborate?.

Also, something I’d like to know that might be a little off topic, why is it we only consume the body of Christ and not the blood?

 

[japhy]

Outside to show some kind of respect, where the offering is cherished, what was the original cup/chalis made from that Jesus used on the last supper? I bet it was some humble earthen ware, what happened for it to go from that, to something more elaborate?

We can’t infer the quality of the dinner-ware used at the Lord’s Passover meal; however, it was held in the “upper room” of a house with at least one servant (the one carrying the water jug) so I’d say it’s conceivable that the house where the first Eucharist was confected had at least one “noble” chalice at the Lord’s disposal.

Also, something I’d like to know that might be a little off topic, why is it we only consume the body of Christ and not the blood?

You should start a different thread for that (or better yet, search around first). I can tell you two things: a) the Church teaches concomitance, which means both the Host and the Chalice contain the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, so you need only receive under one form to receive the whole of Jesus; and b) there are many dioceses (at least in the U.S.) where Holy Communion is offered under both kinds to the laity (although one could surmise it is done far more often than Vatican II intended).

 

[patrick457]

Outside to show some kind of respect, where the offering is cherished, what was the original cup/chalis made from that Jesus used on the last supper? I bet it was some humble earthen ware, what happened for it to go from that, to something more elaborate?.

Utensils back then are not just earthenware mind you; there’s also glassware and metalware. Jesus could’ve used either one of those; but then again we do NOT intend to reconstruct how the Last Supper must have looked like at Mass in the manner of historical reenactment; otherwise we should all be speaking Hebrew/Aramaic and wearing tunics and sandals.

Also, something I’d like to know that might be a little off topic, why is it we only consume the body of Christ and not the blood?

Because the Host contains the whole Jesus: Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Same goes for the Wine. Jesus is not ‘divided’ between between the Host and Wine: Both contain his Body and Blood.